Aches and Pains

[Paul Victory]

I know it goes with the territory, but of late I seem to be suffering more than my usual share of aches and pains.

My left elbow and right bicep are constantly sore and I get recurrent pain in my lower back. I also seem to feel tired most of the time.

There are all sorts of vitamins and homeopathic remedies out there and it is hard to know which are quackery and which are worth taking. I spoke to a pharmacist today who suggested glucosamine and sold me some fairlly expensive capsules.

I would like to hear from other FreeSpirits about any supplements they have tried, what has worked and what hasn't. In particular, I would welcome suggestions from anyone else who has achieved the half way mark or better in their first 100Y.

Paul

[Wolfmiester]

Hi Paul,
having suffered many a rugby injury I've been taking Glucosomine & Cod Liver Oil for a few years now and I'd say they definitely work to help the joints.
I get mine from Healthspan, who are based in Guernsey. They seem to be the cheapest.
If you'd like more detail send me a PM.

[Tom Barrick]

Hey, Paul and Wolfie,

Tonight, while shopping with the family at the local Costco, we came upon a product called Joint Juice. This is what they say about their product: "Joint Juice is a dietary supplement that hydrates and lubricates your joints to help improve cushioning and function.

Each eight ounce can of Joint Juice combines a full day's supply of 1500 mg of glucosamine and 60 mg of vitamin C with real fruit juice."

http://www.jointjuice.com

I have no idea how the stuff works, but evidently you can get a 48-day supply for nearly 48 US dollars, which is like 10 pounds at this point.

Anyway, the Costcos generally sell their products wholesale, or at least packaged in twos, so I'm not sure it'd be worth it to pick up an entire case of the stuff to figure it out. Will have to wait until they have a free sampling or pick one up somewhere else, individually.

Could be promising, but I hadn't really thought about glucosamine ever. Sounds great for long distance rowing, I will update when I get to try it.

[krisplus5]

Glucosamine can make a big difference with joint issues. Also, my husband, who is 50, has severe bone spurs in his upper back swears by SMS. Apparently both Glocusamine/Chondroitin and SMS work by helping with hydration, which naturally makes joint movement smoother.

For muscle pain, stretching is very important (but never over-stretch). For lower-back, make sure you are keeping your hamstrings loose (as much as this is possible). With a left elbow and right bicep pain, together with low-back pain--keep an eye on your posture when rowing. If you are trying to avoid back pain you may be compensating with a shift, which could cause you to pull off-center (do you sweep a bit?).

I highly recommend seeking a good massage therapist. Someone who knows sports massage would be best. I've used massage for relief of chronic hip pain with great success (my issue, which translates to hip pain, is tight quads and psoas, probably from sitting writing code for hours on end). My massage therapist has also worked on my tweaked sub-scapulars, (translates to shoulder pain for me) and elbow/bicep pain from gripping with wrist cocked (tennis-elbow-type thing).

[ReneHoferichter]

Usually these symptoms are emergency signals from your body saying: Hey old chap, shift back and slow down a bit or I may break down.
Giving yourself three to five days rest can do wonders and is much cheaper than any medicine
My right ellbow also gives me such signals from time to time and I know I better slow down or even stop working out instead of letting my body come up with something really nasty or damaging myself.

[Paul Victory]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I've also done some googling on glucosamine and it definitely looks like it's worth trying. I'll try some of the sources suggested by other posters.

The massage suggestion is a good one. There's a guy attached to my gym that I've gone to a few times, but I'd kinda forgotten about him as I'm now doing most of my training at home. He knows his stuff and I think I'll pay him a visit.

I will also act on Rene's suggestion and heed my body, which I think is telling me to ease off a bit. I had a horrible 60 minutes session this afternoon (almost 1000m behind my PB) and I'm definitely out of sorts.

Thanks again

Paul

[ReneHoferichter]

Wouldn't be surprised seeing you getting better results than before your pain after you are "cured"

[BorisZ]

[...] There are all sorts of vitamins and homeopathic remedies out there and it is hard to know which are quackery and which are worth taking. I spoke to a pharmacist today who suggested glucosamine and sold me some fairlly expensive capsules. [...] Paul

Paul: I think, the link below provides a good summary for Glucosamine. I personally think there is no evidence to support Glucoseamine supplements. It's $$ out the window.
All sorts of companies can make all sorts of claims regarding supplements - I think sometimes I should sell snake oil in expensive bottles and make a good $ with it....! In my practice I cannot use products without an established cause-effect relationship - or would anyone want to volunteer to be anesthetized by a connoction that I produce in the backyard?

Here the randomized controlled trials that actually look at the data:

http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html

[beegee]

glucosamine+chondroitin tabs for me, plus cod liver oil capsules.

had some knee tenderness when I started off erging last November, but nothing since (or maybe I'm just fitter now

Brian

[William]

I agree with Boris. There is very little evidence that glucosamine is good for anything except osteoarthritis where it is believed to be beneficial for the regeneration of joint cartilage (the evidence for this is modest). However, it may well have a placebo effect for muscular injuries, so, if it works for you, and you can afford it, you might as well take it as it is pretty harmless stuff. The majority of minor sports injuries will get better by themselves anyway. The best thing to take for most aches and pains is analgesic tablets (eg paracetamol or ibuprofen) if necessary, and plenty of fresh fruit which contains vitamins to help the healing process. Hope you get better soon. Regards, William

[Wolfmiester]

Interesting point about the placebo effect William.
I know my joints & bones (two cruciate ops, compound fracture of tib & fib, elbow & shoulder ops (not all at the same time I'm glad to say )) "feel" better for taking the suppliments.
However, I'm not thowing myself around a rugby pitch or doing any running as part of my training schedule any more so that's obviously had an effect too.
The straight glucosamine tablets are only £15 for a year's supply, and the cod liver oil tablets are about the same. So it's a small price to pay even if it only has minimal effect.
Another point I'd make is that these are "natural substances" so there's no issue of taking man made additives (mind you, as I type this sentence I'm thinking that testosterone is natural too) but hopefully you see what I'm trying to say!

[Paul Victory]

I decided to go for a check up, just to make sure there was nothing sinister behind the aches and pains.

The doctor gave me a full check up, including blood tests and told me there was nothing clinically wrong with me. However, he suggested I see a personal trainer about the various aches and pains, which he figures are due to a combination of overtraining and not mixing up my training enough.

Since seeing him, I developed further pains all down my right side from the waist down and these were severe enough to cause me to visit a physio. The physio has given me some exercises to do and told me not to get back on the rower until after he has seen me again on Friday and checked out what progress I'm making.

I told him I was hoping to do an FM (or at the very least a HM) before month end and he said that it might be possible to do one over the weekend at a very gentle pace depending on how much progress I've made by Friday.

So it looks like I won't be taking part in the final push to the moon, but I hope to be fighting fit in time for next season's lift off.

Paul

[Wolfmiester]

Well good luck with whatever it is Paul!
Hopefully the good rest and the physio will bring you back as good as new.

[Granny]

Paul, sorry to hear your feeling so low. Listen to your body, I learned that lesson recently. If it means taking a few days off do it - don't push through as you'll only fall lower. Achieving another marathon would be great, but it won't be worth it if you find it physically knocks you out for several weeks. You could always be the first FS to do one in the 2008 year.

Hang in and try to keep the mental up, it will help with the physical.

Robin

[Mike Channin]

Hi Paul,

Sorry not to have been in touch for a while. Here's my thoughts.

Knowing you and how hard you train, I suspect you probably are overtraining, and this is your body telling you to back off a bit. It is easy to get sucked into the temptation of attempting a PB everytime you row (or every other time), but once you get trained up near your maximum, you probably shouldn't be attempting a flat out maximal piece more often than once every other week at the very most. A maximal piece takes your body right to the limits, and once you're trained up, takes a LOT of recovering from.

It'd be handy to see your training diary over the last month or so, but I suspect you'll have been doing a lot of hard and maximal workouts.

I'd suggest backing off your pace to something much easier, but keeping on rowing. Have a week of low intensity rowing. If you have a Heart Rate Monitor, aim to be below 70% WHRR every day, maybe even below 65%. This allows you to work the muscles and ensure they don't weaken, but allow them to recover from the stresses of the high intensity (85%+) stuff. You can do longer distances while doing this (provided you have the time of course), and I often used FM distances at 65/70% intensity as race build ups last season. This should allow you to put in the longer rows while still letting your body recover overall.

Hope this helps - is difficult to say overtraining for definite without seeing your exact training and intensities.

Oh, and for the record, I take glucosamine/chondritin and cod liver oil when I train. Seems to work as my joints hurt more when I'm NOT training than when I am. Just my 2p...

Anyway, Paul, all the best, and hope to see you feeling more cheerful again very soon.

[Paul Victory]

I suspect you probably are overtraining, and this is your body telling you to back off a bit. It is easy to get sucked into the temptation of attempting a PB everytime you row (or every other time), but once you get trained up near your maximum, you probably shouldn't be attempting a flat out maximal piece more often than once every other week at the very most. A maximal piece takes your body right to the limits, and once you're trained up, takes a LOT of recovering from.

It'd be handy to see your training diary over the last month or so, but I suspect you'll have been doing a lot of hard and maximal workouts.

I'd suggest backing off your pace to something much easier, but keeping on rowing. Have a week of low intensity rowing. If you have a Heart Rate Monitor, aim to be below 70% WHRR every day, maybe even below 65%. This should allow you to put in the longer rows while still letting your body recover overall.

Hope this helps - is difficult to say overtraining for definite without seeing your exact training and intensities.

Thanks Mike

I haven't really been trying for PBs all the time, but I have probably been training closer to full intensity than I should have been. My log book is available through the meter board and generally includes information on drag factor, stroke rate and heart rate (unless I'm in the gym, where I don't have heart rate data).

I haven't rowed since Saturday, and was planning to hold off until I see the physio on Friday morning. Having said this, his advice was that I should back off and do very low intensity work on the rower, or ideally, stay off the rower altogether.

Based on your posting, I'm now thinking that I might do a low intensity session tonight, provided I can force myself to stay at or below 70% of max HR, even if this means having to slow down to around 2:20 pace or slower. I'm not sure that I would be able to resist the urge to start rowing faster if I see a really slow time coming through, but I guess it's something I will need to cultivate.

Cheers

Paul

[Mike Channin]

If it helps Paul, because of my current state of NO fitness whatsoever, I did an 8k at 2:20 last night and only just kept in the below 70% WHRR (Av 148!)

Looking at your logbook, you were certainly pushing yourself hard early on this month around the time of the 24/7. Remind me what your HR Max and 85% and 70% levels are.

Also worth noting, you get more benefit from doing low intensity on days between high intensity stuff than you do from complete rest. (Provided it REALLY IS low intensity, of course!)

Anyway, try the long, slow stuff and see how you respond. If you're still really suffering, you probably have an injury that will need a period of total rest. If you get on ok, you were probably just pushing too hard.

(Proviso - don't go _too_ far each day on low intensity - a HM at 70% pace starts not to be a low intensity day because of the overall effort, and an FM at low intensity is only recovery if you're VERY highly trained. Alternate the days between longer and shorter if you want to rack up some distance.)

[Paul Victory]

If it helps Paul, because of my current state of NO fitness whatsoever, I did an 8k at 2:20 last night and only just kept in the below 70% WHRR (Av 148!)

Looking at your logbook, you were certainly pushing yourself hard early on this month around the time of the 24/7. Remind me what your HR Max and 85% and 70% levels are.

Hi Mike

I haven't formally tested to see what my max HR is, but I have reached 181 and I figure that must be pretty close to max (given than 220 minus age equals 166). I also have not tested my resting HR first thing in the morning (I seem to have trouble finding a pulse), but I have measured a HR of 60 when watching TV.

Can you remind me what WHRR means? Is it a % of max HR or is it min HR + % of (max HR - min HR). If the former, my 85% and 70% levels are around 154 and 127; if the latter, they're around 163 and 145.

Incidentally, the HR data shown in my log is average HR and max HR. This is based on a direct link to my PM4 and the average HR shown on the PM4 is a straight average of my HR at the end of each split.

Thanks

Paul

[Spamuel]

If you can't resist speeding;

I row using the heart rate monitor on my wrist and cover the screen on the rower so I have no idea what speed I'm doing, I just use my heart rate.

I've taken to do this on all my long recovery rows because I just can't help racing otherwise and over training follows.

[Mike Channin]

WHRR - Working Heart Rate Range is the one taking into account resting rate, so use the higher of the two sets of values.

Also of note, the PM4 HR readings can be misleading, as, AFAIK, they only take the HR at the end of each split, so they can be highly inaccurate unless you have very small splits.

For example, if you row a slow/flat out/slow piece with only one split, your max HR will be at the end of the flat out bit, but it may have recovered to a much lower value by the end of the split, as recorded on the PM4.

I know this is the case on the PM3 - but need someone who also uses a HRM (Big John Glynn) to confirm if this is still the case on the PM4. (And if so, why can't C2 use a better HR tracking mechanism???)

Spamuel - good way of sticking to HR for definite - I'm not brave enough to try that. I do find that sometimes my HR will drift upwards when holding around 70% WHRR and at constant pace. Sometimes this is down to standard HR drift with fatigue, but sometimes it is down to not breathing correctly, and sorting out the breathing timing and breathing deeply can result in a HR drop. (In fact HR seems quite susceptable to both breathing irregularities and mental state. Try doing a low intensity piece and get your HR constant, and then mentally visualise racing the end of a 2k, but without changing your actual pace - bet your HR goes up significantly!)

Back to the original point, Paul, you definitely had a period in early April where you were over 85% for multiple days running (i.e. working HARD) and this can quickly result in overtraining, particularly if you're trained up. How is the light intensity stuff going?

[Paul Victory]

Also of note, the PM4 HR readings can be misleading, as, AFAIK, they only take the HR at the end of each split, so they can be highly inaccurate unless you have very small splits.

Back to the original point, Paul, you definitely had a period in early April where you were over 85% for multiple days running (i.e. working HARD) and this can quickly result in overtraining, particularly if you're trained up. How is the light intensity stuff going?

Thanks Mike

I think the PM4 works the same way as the PM3 when calculating average HR i.e. it just takes the average at the end of each split. Therefore, it's likely to lead to a slight overstatement of average HR if your heart rate is gradually climbing during your workout. However, with 5 splits or more, I figure it's unlikely to be out by much more than 2 or 3 bpm. And, if you're keeping your HR fairly steady throughout, I imagine the average HR will be fairly accurate.

Regarding the light intensity stuff, I've been working pretty late and decided to take a complete break until after my physio appointment tomorrow morning. However, I'm planning to get back in the saddle tomorrow night, come what may.

Paul

[MaxDev]

I often get pains in my knees after long hard rows (FMs and longer). I guess it doesn't help that I have dodgy knees anyway - weak left knee due to old injury (detached medial ligament when I was eighteen) and still not 100% in the right knee since dislocating the patella two years ago.

With the additional training I'm planning to do at the start of next season, I decided today to try out one of these supplements for joints (combined Glucosamine, Chondroitin and Cod Liver oil mix) for the next month and see whether I notice any effect.

Max

[Tom Barrick]

I often get pains in my knees after long hard rows (FMs and longer).

Before you go any further, the distances you've laid out could explain some of those pains, Max. Seriously, ask any marathon runner how they're doing after the long run. You've also done the 100k, which could put you down for a few days, but forget about the pains in your knees. You crazy man!

I get aches all the time in the legs and back, maybe twice a month. It's usually a matter, for me at least, of the body needing rest and rest being refused. The lighter rows tend to make my back ache all the more, so I keep the pressure on and that usually helps. "See no evil...feel no evil?"

Lastly, I use too high a resistance(I know this) at just over 200 df, at all times. Should probably have this set down to around 140-165 max. I have a zero weight-lifting regimen in play, so I suppose I've been using the erg to work up the muscles as well. Also a bad idea.

Anyway, Max, take those rests, do the recovery rows, and worry most about quality, not quantity. It's my mantra for this new season.

[Paul Victory]

Went back to the physio today. He asked me if I'd been taking it easy as per his instructions. I told him I had rowed eleven days in a succession averaging about an hour a day. As you can imagine, he was not impressed.

He told me I will need to cut back severely if I want my rotator cuff and bicep problems to clear up and avoid even more serious problems. So I've agreed to cut back to three days a week to give everything a chance to heal.

Not looking forward to my impending plummet down the meter board, but it's better than risking long term injury problems. As soon as I get the all clear, I'm planning to start following the Pete Plan and hoping this will help me to climb back up the rankings.

Paul

[Draggon]

Went back to the physio today. He asked me if I'd been taking it easy as per his instructions. I told him I had rowed eleven days in a succession averaging about an hour a day. As you can imagine, he was not impressed.

He told me I will need to cut back severely if I want my rotator cuff and bicep problems to clear up and avoid even more serious problems. So I've agreed to cut back to three days a week to give everything a chance to heal.

Not looking forward to my impending plummet down the meter board, but it's better than risking long term injury problems. As soon as I get the all clear, I'm planning to start following the Pete Plan and hoping this will help me to climb back up the rankings.

Paul (and anyone else), I found this thread you started back in 2007 (ZOMBIE THREAD! Oh Noes!) after searching for "sore bicep". Unfortunately, I've just noticed yesterday morning that both my upper biceps tendons are pretty sore in the area of the anterior shoulder joint. The pain sometimes sympathizes anywhere along the bicep, but pressing around with my fingers, that tendon is definitely the focal point on both sides. I took an Aleve (NSAID) last night before bed and am definitely feeling less sore this morning, but I'm pretty concerned about what I should do going forward to avoid a more serious circumstance.

I'm really pretty upset about this as I've been enjoying my sessions. I don't feel that I've been pushing overly hard, but my tendons are obviously trying to tell me something different.

I know you're not a clinical expert, but I'm wondering if you had any advice based on your experience since I know you are still an active rower today. It was only 9 years ago, so surely you can recall every detail?