what training have free spirits been doing today?

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Iain - good point (and looking at that metric, I'm happily inside 2k+10).
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

Ian Bee wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:20 am Personally, I've seen significant benefits from the steady state pieces I've included.
Absolutely Ian - you've continued to make some really strong improvements and I've no doubt at all that this is due in part to the longer stuff. I certainly didn't mean to denigrate the steady state UT1 and UT2 sessions. A decade or so ago, the backbone of my training was UT1 3 x 12' and 3 x 15' sessions with a hard 60' or HM on a Sunday morning. It's just that I now need to balance things a little more and find the 30' or 5k training to be a great compromise, giving a really good "bang for my buck" :D

Really strong session from you today 8) 8)
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Sorry Mat - if it came across as a defensive statement it wasn't my intention. Purely my tuppence / stream of consciousness 😊 - I've plenty to learn/unlearn about training on an erg.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Claudius »

Hello, it's good to see that the new season is seamlessly following the previous one. Good efforts everyone! New season = Marathon Challenge. We wanted to join with the distance of all distances. The great myth of an endurance event. Marathon. So yesterday's effort was not easy. I tried to keep rowing with my pb split. I was so sure I couldn't keep that pace. Because it's a simple logical equation. PB season meters ~5500km, last season 3500km + injury -> which only party explained the less meters. I did indeed struggle the last 10k. Thinking about DNF. Since I still consider myself "quite fit", so I still fit the bill, a friend and coach said "you don't DNF", I run with you and I come before DNF, so the saying "Death and Taxes" is obsolete, better would have been Deathb4Taxes, let's change it to "superheroe[ine]'s" (a "quite good" athlete) motto >>Deathb4DNF<<. So for sure no DNF and finished that once again only as second best marathon row.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

I feel for you Claudius, brave to attempt to maintain FM PB. I am frequently amazed at the rating you can maintain. I don't think I have ever exceeded 31SPM for a 2k, so doing it on an FM would probably allow me to DNF even following your saying!

Great FM even if you have managed one even greater! ^O^ =D> ^O^

I have been pondering what this common experience at the end of an FM is caused by. Looking at your trace, HR dropped markedly that happened when I "bonked" when attempting an FM >6hrs after last eating! But given the significant drop in rating and pace, who can say whether the drop off was all caused by this. Well done for keeping going and losing less than half the power that I did at the end of my 50km on Sunday. Interestingly my HR actually rose, but that may be increased stress and I managed to maintain my rating. Definitely felt muscular, but why should muscular tiredness suddenly increase after slowly creeping up on me for the previous hour? I also wondered whether there could be other causes. At my pitiful pace (I was rowing around my SS pace), I wondered whether rather than glycogen depletion, it could have been dehydration or even the depletion of the interstitial fat in my quads? Any thoughts anyone? Before someone else says it, I realise that the most likely in my case at least was just a collapse in willpower! Although I actually did manage to sustain the pace after this point for the best part of 5km suggesting probably not! amybe HD / SD Demons are real. :lol:
Last edited by Iain on Fri May 12, 2023 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by spidermac »

Claudius >31spm for FM is VERY impressive ^O^ ^O^ - what drag factor are using. I have been using a slightly lower drag 115 as opposed to 120 for the longer distances & wondering about moving it even lower. Great dislay of will power over such a long distance!! =D> =D>
Ian - I used to avoid anything over 30mins & they are still not my fav but realise they r neccesary to improve!!! :(
After last disastrous session decided on a hybrid EM session - high aerobic he says & it was: :shock:
3x15minR2min each segment broken into 5/4/3/2/1min @ 20/22/24/26/28spm
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
05:00.0 1136 20 132 02:12.0
04:00.0 932 22 141 02:08.7
03:00.0 718 24 147 02:05.3
02:00.0 488 26 151 02:02.9
01:00.0 251 28 153 01:59.5

05:00.0 1148 20 145 02:10.6
04:00.0 942 22 150 02:07.3
03:00.0 723 24 154 02:04.4
02:00.0 493 27 157 02:01.7 - missed spm target
01:00.0 253 28 158 01:58.5

05:00.0 1162 20 151 02:09.0
04:00.0 957 22 151 02:05.3
03:00.0 723 24 156 02:04.4
02:00.0 495 27 157 02:01.2 - and again! :evil:
01:00.0 255 28 156 01:57.6
45:00.0 10672 22 150 02:06.4
CD - 2k
HR still not going very hi #-o . however a sweaty effort & builds from 24spm onward. Missed the spm target a few times but not by much.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Claudius »

thank you guys ! Stroke rate 30-32 is race s/m for longer pieces. Do not matter if on slides or not. This one was on a static. I do not have experiences with an all out Marathon on slides. The differences would be intersting. DF was 123 and quite well chosen.
"Coach"said start first with 1:56 (faster than pb start) then go to pb pace for ~30min, what happened then can be called the "Annakin principle"
I said: I will try, I will try to keep the pace up as long as possible, do not underestimate my power.
Whereupon coach says: don't even try, you are not as fit as 18 months ago, go down with the pace to 1:58.
But I really wanted to know, now everything hurts(a little bit).
The main reasons for the worse result are, as already mentioned, primary: lower training volume on the erg, and secondary: less effort in the upper zone 3 and zone 4, which mainly due to the primary reason led to the fact that the long endurance less fatiguing fiber 1 muscles were trained less, and ultimately it came to an overall faster fatigue. 2:45:00.1 is still "quite good" too. So I'm not disappointed, perhaps a bit by my own "Annakin Principle".
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

Lots going on here with some great work on the Erg ^O^

Iain - sounds like you’re in a tough place at the moment. Kudos for keep on moving forward - I’m sure it’ll come good :)

Claudius - very nice FM =D> =D> and huge respect for fighting through to the end. I must confess to not having the “Death before DNF” mentality which gives me even greater respect for those who can plough on through

I think the research has been extensive on the final stages on any FM and it seems there are a combination of all the usual suspects. I can’t remember my Erg marathons, but on each of my running marathons I’ve certainly hit the wall at breakneck speed at some stage despite various methods designed to avoid it!

Spider - that recent session is one of those that keeps the mind working just as hard as the body! =D>

Ian - I was worried that I may have come across to harsh and made it sound as if I was dismissing the long stuff. Sounds as if we’re both just throwing our thoughts into the mix which is just what this forum is for :fsbgrin:

Yesterday was a weights session for me which led to some severe DOMS this morning following some heavy squats. I wasn’t pleased to see todays tough session on the menu: 2’ paddle then 1’ at sub 2k pace, getting faster: repeat 10 times

Decided to try it, and just do 5 but felt Claudius on my shoulder whispering in my ear and hung on to the end!

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Thanks Mat, I was happy with the 50k even if it left me fatigued, great to be tired knowing that will recover quickly than have niggles that might slow / stop me for longer! I know that when running FMs, the "wall" ("AKA bonking") is well established and the depletion of sugar reserves, but this seems to effect a minority of ergers, while there is also ion leakage reducing the effectiveness of muscles. But I have't seen comments that the latter occurs suddenly and far more people report it rapidly getting tougher in at some point in the last 10k. Are you aware of any distance rowing research on this? Or is it that bonking in an erging FM is more common than reported but unrecognised?

Interesting session that you did well to deliver, similar to a 10 x 1'r1'. Interested in how you rowed the "paddling". I understand that you were all out after the fast mins, but you nevertheless maintained R20, then when "recovering" into the 2nd min you upped the pace at the same rate. As a result the work per stroke varied enormously from figures I recognise to your high race work in the minutes where you didn't use sprint ratings but relied on greater work per stroke. I am perhaps overly focused on work per stroke (ostensibly to identify when my worst technique faults creep in, especially on longer rows, but also to reveal muscular lack of recovery), do you and others reading this think that weaker strokes are normal when rowing more easily?
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

Thanks for the insight Iain - I've no recollection of studies into long distance erging as i haven't really looked into it to the extent that I did when running

Your observations on the recovery are interesting, but in all honesty I'm not convinced that there's too much "intention" in there. Just for you I've included below a shot showing the SPI (I say just for you as I'm sure nobody else will be interested, but you did bring it up :lol: )

One of the main differences between my training in a previous life and now (aside from the obvious difference in age and ability!) is my embracing of lower rate rowing that was previously an anathema to me! Consequently, it now feels natural to row the recovery "paddle" at R20.
The variation in power is fairly natural: the first couple strokes after the hard minute barely hold any power, and are a little short before I begin to stretch out to full strokes at low power to recover and get the blood back in the legs. So by the end of that first minute of recovery, I'm pulling around 2:10 which continues for most of the second minute until the final couple of strokes when I up the power to get the flywheel spinning again before the faster split. So, the pace of c2:15 on the first recovery minute and sub 2:10 for the second seems fairly consistent (although it gets a bit messy towards the end when I need more recovery!)

As you say, its very much like the 10x1'r1' but I do find that the continual rowing aspect adds a different dimension to the recovery

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Simple (and compared to Claudius positively glacial) HM today:
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My main experience of slamming into the wall was 78k into a failed 100k. I'm interested at the thought of HR variability though I didn't wear my monitor for that one. In my case it manifested as a sudden collapse of energy and motivation to finish
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

I didn't have HR on for my 111k either, although I don't think it would have helped much due to stomach issues. But the Bonk was a clear case of HR falling more than would be normal for the pace drop coupled with an inability to get the pace back up (I did also take several unscheduled stops for drinks as well). Might be glacial compared to Claudius, but inside my FM PB throughout! I would be overjoyed with a 10k at that pace at present, but with less than 5 months erging since an extended break doing much less than half the distance in that time that time than you have that is not surprising! By HR variability, for clarity, I assume you mean the change in heart rate rather than how HRV is used (variation in the time between heart beats which reduces if we are over tired).

Mat, I'm embarrased to say I had calculated a selective sample from which I made my comments! So no need to bore others with the data in the future!
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Iain - yes: I was intending reference to changes in rate. Having fallen off the exercise wagon too, I know and can respect the effort to climb back on.

Today's training happens to be in the PB thread ...
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

Nice HM and an even nicer PB Ian =D> =D>
Iain wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 1:37 pm Mat, I'm embarrased to say I had calculated a selective sample from which I made my comments! So no need to bore others with the data in the future!
No calculations needed today Iain - you’d piqued my interest and so I included SPI in the readout today: a rate pyramid session which saw me move up and down 3 times. Interested to see the power per stroke fairly consistent across the stroke rates. Obviously it gradually increases as I aim to negatively split each comparable rated session, but I guess these session are doing what they should… maintaining a consistency in power in each stroke so that faster pieces come from increasing rate rather than rate and power

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by stumpy »

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first session of the RA 5k plan today subscribed to ErgZone again, following that session I hope they’ll get a bit more interesting, followed that with a 20 min cd on Zwift. Excellent training in the above posts everyone keep it going.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

It's a very good sequence of sessions Mat - if not for the jumble or sessions I currently have I might try that.

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A very gentle start to the week. Keep on saying it, but I may try to be more accountable with "everything else" training wise. Weights weekday mornings (very short session) with normally circuits training Tuesday and Thursday, HIIT session Saturday morning.

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by spidermac »

Good sessions allround - congrats on the PB Ian - a good chunk off.
First double session today.
AM - climbing training.
PM 30minR20
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
06:00.0 1354 20 130 02:12.9
06:00.0 1356 20 134 02:12.7
06:00.0 1359 20 138 02:12.4
06:00.0 1362 20 142 02:12.1
06:00.0 1370 20 143 02:11.3
30:00.0 6799 20 137 02:12.3
CD - 1k
Definitely felt this mornings session!
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Spider, You've come a long way with the 30R20, I remember when you used to =ve split them as you weakened, now you only get stronger! Mat, strong pyramid there, Ian good solid session.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

stumpy wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 11:56 am I hope they’ll get a bit more interesting,
I certainly enjoyed the 5k plan Colin - hope you do too. It’s a good mix of faster and also longer stuff without getting too fast or too long!!
Ian Bee wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:12 am It's a very good sequence of sessions Mat - if not for the jumble or sessions I currently have I might try that.
I can imagine it’s hard enough juggling your current mix of plans - it’s working well for you so far, but I’d agree that adding another ball (to continue the tortured juggling analogy) may be too much!!

Nice session Spider, and as Iain mentioned, it’s great to see you always going for the negative splits :D

Tough one today which built as it went. R22 for 4’30” then 2k pace for 30” before getting back to the R22 again… really pleased with having hung on to the end!!

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Impressive once again from Spider and Mat for your half hours ^O^
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I did consider throwing in the towel on this one, so I'll take the wobble towards the end rather than having to explain a HD.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by stumpy »

I feel that I’m getting back into the swing of things at last and it’s really motivating to join you guy's here. So after a short session on Zwift last night at zone 2, this morning was my first mid tier session on RA 5k gladly it was tough rather that hard.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by stumpy »

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I really would forget my head if it was loose. Thx Mat yes that one was more interesting the 28 spm was the challenge as I tend to rate low.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Wow, I am staggered that you can row R28 as a mid-level session. I don't think I could hold a consistent R28 for 2k at present. Mat, much more consistent (as well as significantly faster) than last time. Colin, amazed your HR never exceeded 82%, I sometimes hit that on SS rows at 2k+23 R17.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by spidermac »

Welcome Stumpy the more the merrier.
Ian a 2sec improvemnet on that session well done. =D> =D> =D>
Mat Mr consistent as always ^O^
My sessh on the PP thread today.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by stumpy »

Thx Iain I guess it just proves my 2k/5k are well soft at this moment in time. All I really want for this season is to better 800 nonathlon points on all time/distances that I attempt, and most importantly keep injury free. Well done on the 50k by the way.
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