what training have free spirits been doing today?

[Ian Bee]

Lots of weekend training to digest, not least Iain's 50k (I see there's some fall challenge metre munching occurring!). Excellent to see

ArenT - look forward to seeing some comparisons in the future (and showing my lack of outright pace I would imagine).

ReactNative-snapshot-image855682780103376311.jpg (52.4 KiB) Viewed 4176 times

Simple 2x30min again. Last time through I had an average pace of 2.07.9/ HR 67-70 (cap of 75-80). A little faster this time and still within the HR cap. Holding spm target is getting a bit more challenging, but I can see that I can push a bit more on this session towards the ultimate target of 2.03/4 for pb marathon pace. It will then be a game of ebb and flow to hold HR steady

More long term, I'll keep a steadier eye on my force curve. My initial readings suggest that the force peak should be further to the left than I typically register, but I've yet to read enough to say which part of my technique is not pulling it's weight (or perhaps parts?).

[Iain]

Massive improvement Ian I was holding 17S / 500M pace slower at a similar %HRMax and only 1 SpM less on Saturday and 10S / 500m slower at 2SpM faster and 10% HRMax higher this morning! Clearly I need to continue work on base fitness.

[spidermac]

Very impressive from the Ian & Iain.
Plan was to go climbing today but hands suffering badly from arthritis so knocked it o the head & did a sessh on the erg.
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
05:00.0 1126 20 148 02:13.2
04:00.0 922 22 157 02:10.1
03:00.0 709 24 163 02:06.9
02:00.0 488 26 167 02:02.9
01:00.0 252 28 171 01:59.0
Rest 2min
05:00.0 1146 20 163 02:10.8
04:00.0 952 22 171 02:06.0
03:00.0 729 24 175 02:03.4
02:00.0 495 27 174 02:01.2 - missed spm
01:00.0 255 28 175 01:57.6
30:00.0 7073 22 166 02:07.2
CD - 1k
Felt on the ragged edge fron R26 on both rounds but managed to -ve split. HR shows at least Iwas trying!!!

[Iain]

Brilliant session Spider, massive neg split and keeping going when HR very high after the second 4' was a testament to your determination. Hope Arthritis recovers soon.

- Iain

[Emander]

Today was a "lets burn some calories"-session. I followed along with the instructions from an indoor biking class to keep it interesting (climb -> low rate hard stroke, speed up -> rate up and try to go fast).

Skärmbild 2024-10-14 175831.png (55.6 KiB) Viewed 4141 times

[ArenT]

The pretty beastly sessions people are registering a definitely motivating.

Iain, your 10 x 5000m is a seriously punishing session, particularly with the almost metronomic pace and low 17 spm. Love the fact that you then "casually" followed it up less than 24 hours later with a 90 minute effort.

BikeErg today. The heavy emphasis on rowing has a massive transfer effect over to cycling (assuming you've already got good pedalling technique). Felt great doing a 3x12000m session (previous day's "Long" BikeErg WOD), held it at a pretty even 200W average (first interval a little lower as I had a few adjustments/stoppages as I was warming up and fiddling with fan etc., I don't know why, but for whatever reason I sweat unbelievably on an indoor bike even with a fan; I'm guessing I sweat just slightly less when rowing as you get a really good backdraft of air with each stroke which helps).

Back to the rower tomorrow and for the rest of week.

Never used a Skierg, but understand it is slower than rower for same effort, so a good workout.

Definitely about 10-20% lower effective FTP versus rowing, assuming someone has roughly equal training/technique on both. I reckon the drop is pretty similar to the drop from cycling to rowing (due to the greater efficiency of pedalling). It would be interesting to do a detailed analysis, assuming you could get a large enough sample of people to train basically 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 across the three pieces of equipment, trying to "normalise" out technical deficiencies by ensuring the sample had roughly equally good technique across the three, and trying to "normalise" out the inevitable limb dimensions/biomechanical advantages that certain people have towards certain equipment versus the other (i.e. being tall, generally speaking, is a big aid to rowing, whereas height has minimal to no benefit to cycling (and for outdoor riding, would typically be a disadvantage due to your larger coefficient of drag/frontal area), assuming your legs are not incredibly short relative to crank length. I'd assume that height is also beneficial to SkiErg). The objective being to build a power conversion table/calculator.

e.g. if you input your rowing 2K best effort, or best 10k effort, or rowing FTP if you know it, it'd then spit out what you probably "should" be capable of on either a BikeErg or SkiErg. And vice versa for either of the other two. Maybe should send Concept 2 an e-mail and ask them if they've ever considered building such an (inevitably approximate) calculator!

I find SkiErg quite tough on the hands, as you have to drive/arc the handles through quite a range, and the grip position subtly alters. Like with anything, do it enough, and you'll get callouses in the right spot after a while. I don't tend to have much, if any, issue with my hands with rowing, even on long pieces, the handle is conducive to a relaxed grip.

[Iain]

Eric, it depends what you are used to. Messed up by not protecting my hands (I thought that by eliminating 1 handed rowing I would be Ok, I was wrong, lesson learned). Yes my legs were sore and my body kept trying to slow the rate, but really just weariness and definitely easier than an all out 2k! Actually about 12 hours between the 50k & 90 min. re comparing the equipment, I don't think you could find people that are comparable on all 3 machines. The differences would be quite a lot so it would take a lot of data to get a meaningful analysis and I don't think C2 would wish to pay for that!

Good to see you pushing on for a longer session. I would struggle to hold R26 for 40 min. I note that your work per stroke dropped quite a bit, was that solely from ma weaker stroke (fine), or did you allow your technique to get sloppy? I struggle with the latter, hence maintaining a slower rate for slower sessions.

Aren, strong session there, I can see where your fitness came from!

[Ian Bee]

Spider - nice session to -ve split on, and good total for the session.

Eric - aware of others around the team who do vaguely similarly things (I think Claudius was fond of rowing with Zwift?). Certainly a good way to get a varied session.

Iain/Aren - reading with interest from the sidelines. I have never grasped calculating or measuring FTP (or indeed v02 max), or indeed who these come into the equation for comparison across machines given Iain's thoughts

Today was taxing....

ReactNative-snapshot-image1771982380010780923~2.jpg (100.29 KiB) Viewed 4102 times

Compared to last week, recovery was better but the drop from a little less than 5k to marathon pace did not act as respite. There is next to no headroom based on HR cap (HR peak at 89% against a limit of 92%). I'm thinking that this is training pace for a while to acclimatise before even thinking about pushing the pace.

Force curve - 5k reps did show a peak to the left as has been noted as optimal

[Mat]

I've been away for a long weekend down in Oxford, so off the erg and off the forum for a few days. Neverthless, it would appear that Iain has kept up the average with a sterling 10 x 5k session (just 1' between "intervals" ). Huge respect

Ian - I see you joined us in the 30' club... but did it twice Great hour too

Eric - it always takes a while to bed in any changes to stroke, and sometime feels unnatural, as well as that you may be going more slowly before you begin to feel progress. Nevertheless, its good to see you working on different changes - all the best as you continue

Aren - great Ski Erg workout I'm planning on buying one of those myself, just as soon as I've sold my Wattbike. Looking forward to seeing how it contributes towards the overall fitness

ZRL bike race for me at 6:15am this morning - back on the erg tomorrow

[Iain]

Ian, interesting that you are significantly within the cap for the 5ks, but are struggling to recover for the MP sections. That said, I find that I "recover" down to threshold fairly quickly, so if you had pushed 5ks a little harder I don't think the ending HR of the MP sections would have been much higher. I know that Eddie is an HR devotee, but given threshold can be as low as 65% HRR for the unfit to over 90% for elite athletes, I can't see how you can pick a number for MP pace that applies to all. Happy to bore the A$$ off you about FTP / VO2max and other training metrics whenever you want.

Mat great to see you back (although actually returned from nearer me ). No info on the race?

[Mat]

No info on the race?

To be honest it was much the same as most of the ZRL (Zwift Racing League) races I compete in - hard work and lots of effort to come somewhere in the bottom third of the field! Unfortunately those things that benefit me on the erg (size, height and absolute watts) aren't quite as beneficial on a bike where a 70kg rider pumping out 200 watts can get up a hill far more quickly than me churning out 300 watts. Still, its good training and enjoyable

[ArenT]

- Iain, 12 hours is extremely hardcore, impressive.

- Ian B. Well, on a simple level, you can think of FTP as simply another way of measuring your sustainable output, but it is a bit more finely granulated than, say, using pace based adjustments. e.g someone might say "my 2K best effort is 7:45", then go on to describe their maximum 10km or 1 hour in terms of 2K + <some amount>. But given that whatever pace = whatever watts, and that small adjustments in pace (particularly below 2:00) can equal a lot of watts, watts arguably gives you a nicer scale to work with. In practice your rowing FTP will be somewhere around your maximum sustainable pace/power to row somewhere in the region of 10KM and up to around 1 hour. VO2Max is very fashionable, but in practice, what matters far more is your effective power output for a given VO2Max, and particular for sub VO2Max (since nobody can sustain VO2Max for very long, by definition). Though as a general rule, higher VO2Max's tend to equate to more power, the fact is that a given athlete might have a much lower VO2Max (expressed per kg/bodyweight), but have a much higher effective power output (due to greater efficiency, economy, etc.).

As Iain points out, HR threshold is an interesting conundrum, in that with training/the fitter you get, the higher the % of HR Max that your threshold can occur at. Judging by your impressive workout Ian B., with those interval efforts, it looked very tough, so yes, not much "headroom" I think.

I think one thing you can say is that HR and Power make each other *far* more useful, as they given you different windows onto the performance: one way of thinking about it, is to view one as the absolute effort, so in theory the absolute "stress", but the other as the relative effort, and the context-specific "stress". For example, if you have a poor night's sleep, you might still hit your power targets (for example), but you'll likely notice that the variability and dynamism in the HR response is duller, and might overall be lower on average. Everything requires careful interpretation within a context of individual specific exercise history...

Aren - great Ski Erg workout I'm planning on buying one of those myself, just as soon as I've sold my Wattbike. Looking forward to seeing how it contributes towards the overall fitness

Thanks! Ironically enough I am selling my Wattbike Pro (dating back to around ~2017 I think) too. I recently replaced it with a BikeErg.

---

Very busy day at work, so felt "tired", but really, turned out to be a case of "lethargic", as once I got into the workout, had a pretty decent session. 12x300m short intervals with emphasis on low stroke rate and pretty high (for me) power. Managed to more or less "negative" split the series, so in theory that means I could have gone harder on the earlier ones, but considering I initially felt like just doing an easy 5K and calling it done, all-in-all a good session and good closer for the Fall Season challenge.

[Mat]

Aren - great Ski Erg workout I'm planning on buying one of those myself, just as soon as I've sold my Wattbike. Looking forward to seeing how it contributes towards the overall fitness

Thanks! Ironically enough I am selling my Wattbike Pro (dating back to around ~2017 I think) too. I recently replaced it with a BikeErg.

Yes, I enjoyed using the Wattbike during the rehab from my hip replacement, but when it went in for service at the end of last year, I got a Kickr Core intending to sell it again once the Wattbike was returned, but now prefer that:

4BBECDD2-4228-4870-86E2-2E08EB166C24_4_5005_c.jpeg (71.69 KiB) Viewed 4040 times

Good session Aren, especially after having to persuade yourself to get on the erg

Back on it for me, with a 6x2'r2' session. Last time saw an average of 1:44.9, and this morning saw me going a little faster than planned on the first interval, and then of course having to chase the negative split for the rest of the session

B08DF8AE-1EEB-4047-BA0E-05251997117E.jpeg (49.85 KiB) Viewed 4040 times

[Iain]

Aren, 12 hours was the time between sessions not rowing per se (not done that since 1/2 of the 24 hr in 2010). SPI of 13, recovery super impressive, were they on 1' rest? The warm up would finish me up and I would definitely need more than 500m to recover from it! In rowing VO2 max usually quoted as a total rather than per kilogram for the reason mentioned by Mat when commenting on his Zwift performance.

Mat, 1.3S improvement is fantastic, but you might find the new target tougher

Pulled an all nighter and hands only just stopped weeping so metal mistress may get a reprieve for a couple of days.

[Emander]

I missed updating yesterdays easy blind row (sometimes staring at the PM5 gets oppressive), it was an easy effort looking on some tv-series.

Todays session was a short and intense intervals session 1 min on / 1 min off for 4 times and the set repeated for 1 more time. It was not a sustainable effort the min off gets progressively less intense, but if I knock off 10 Watts perhaps I could get another set of 4 efforts in.

Skärmbild 2024-10-16 192650.png (68.59 KiB) Viewed 4015 times

[Iain]

Eric, good to see that you are maintaining regular rows and mixing it up.

The 1 min is a short recovery so you need to do very little or you will compromise the intervals. I would suggest dropping more than 10W off during thye "recovery" and even taking a complete break, but try and push the sets a little longer, perhaps 2 x 6 as otherwise the intervals will become mainly anaerobic and you won't be required to breathe to the extent required to sustain the higher stroke rate.

[spidermac]

Great to see this thread so busy!!
Unsure what to do today but didn`t feel like pushing the boat out too much - decided on 18/20/22 wout & see how it went.
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
05:00.0 1115 18 0 02:14.5
05:00.0 1147 20 0 02:10.7
05:00.0 1169 22 0 02:08.3
05:00.0 1130 18 0 02:12.7
05:00.0 1165 20 0 02:08.7
05:00.0 1187 22 0 02:06.3
30:00.0 6909 20 0 02:10.2
CD - 1k
Well that felt harder than it should have kept checking the drag wasn`t a lot higher than normal!! Quite a hard sessh at the wall yesterday may have left me a bit tired? Overall abit disappointing. More HR monitor problems - replaced battery in strap & plugged/unplugged sensor a few times to no avail. NOT impressed with C2`s HR monitor on the PM3 have had lots of trouble with it over the years seems very tempremental!!

[Mat]

Nice set of intervals Eric As Iain suggests, 1’ is a short recovery unless you’re taking it as complete rest, so maybe worth considering that to maintain the quality of the work intervals

Sounds like it was your turn to be the nail rather than the hammer Spider Still, well done for making it through

Iain - hope the hands have recovered

Hyrox training for me yesterday which inevitably leaves me with a touch of DOMS ahead of this mornings Ladder race on Zwift against a much stronger team Back on the erg tomorrow

[Iain]

Spider well done on strong neg split.

Mat, Hyrox looks hideous, good luck ion the race (hope not too many hills!)

CTC for me this morning, will post data later as limited time this morning, but managed 2S/500m quicker than last month's CTC which temporarily puts me in FS1 for first time in recent history! Look like the long sessions and then 3 days to allow hands to recover have done me good

[spidermac]

AM - climbing training.
2hrs later - 30minR20
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
06:00.0 1334 20 143 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 145 02:14.9
06:00.0 1335 20 146 02:14.8
06:00.0 1335 20 151 02:14.8
06:00.0 1335 20 153 02:14.8
30:00.0 6671 20 147 02:14.9
CD - 1k
After considerable faff got the HR monitor working again. HR a bit lower than last time I did this after climbing training.

[Iain]

Good session Spider so soon after your climbing, shame about first interval

[Emander]

Good points Iain and Mat, I want to use those short intervals to train decent technique at high power levels so it is probably sensible to focus on the quality of the stroke.

Today I did what I would call a sweet spot workout ~90% of FTP (which is ~80% of 2k power I believe), a workout that tries to balance training effect and fatigue.

Skärmbild 2024-10-18 191106.png (59.26 KiB) Viewed 3919 times

[Mat]

Mat, Hyrox looks hideous, good luck ion the race (hope not too many hills!)

Thanks Iain - its all indoors so no hills. It's the burpee long jumps and weighted squats that I don't enjoy. I'll be making my own weighted sled next week so I can practice the sled pull / push. All good functional fitness tbh, and comp isn't until Jan so plenty of time to get ready

I'll take a look at the CTC forum

Great 30R20 Spider following the climbing, with encouraging HR

Thats a really good solid session Eric

So, back on the erg this morning, but with time a bit short (and willpower a little diminished) I baled out ahead of the third 12'
I'll punish myself by doing the CTC next week

IMG_1658.jpeg (32.31 KiB) Viewed 3896 times

[Iain]

Eric, I don't think your %ages work for me. 90% all out 2k is better than I can manage for 5k, while 80% is about 10k pace. I have always taken "Sweet Spot" to be just below the beginning of threshold, so top end UT1 and so similar to today's session for me. Good training at a consistent rate and pace however you describe it.

Mat, we all have days like that, based on first interval pace compared to last time, perhaps a recovery row was ordered? Enjoy CTC. Truly fiendish to have those ong rests after short intervals. Means you can push harder than usual on thee and as they are so short on the 2 & 1.5ks as well. I was really feeling it 26hrs later.

So after 3 days (2 at work, but required for hands to recover from weekend), as stated above did CTC Friday. Left washed out yesterday so settled on long UT2 (broke after 45 min for call of nature). Then this morning still not fully recovered, so UT1 row. On both struggled keeping consistent rate & pace and today finished last 2 min of each 15' at about 2:17 to make target, real sweatfest. HR elevated, may have a slight cold.

Time Distnc Rate Pace Hrmax % HRmin %
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 138 75.0% 079 42.9%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 142 77.2% 136 73.9%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 143 77.7% 136 73.9%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 140 76.1% 089 48.4%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 144 78.3% 137 74.5%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 147 79.9% 141 76.6%
15:00 3,150 17 02:22.9 149 81.0% 143 77.7%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 152 82.6% 145 78.8%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 154 83.7% 149 81.0%
2:15 28354 17.0 2:22.8 154 83.7%

15:00 3,322 20 02:15.5 152 82.6% 096 52.2%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 158 85.9% 148 80.4%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 162 88.0% 155 84.2%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 162 88.0% 154 83.7%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 162 88.0% 155 84.2%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 162 88.0% 155 84.2%
1:30 19923 20.0 2:15.5 162 88.0%

[Ian Bee]

Quick check in to see lots to digest once again.
Mat - until quite recently I used to do a Burpees circuit training evening. There comes a point when they don't exactly become easier, but you're numb to the pain....

Iain - good distance once again

Spider - nice double climb/erg session!!

ReactNative-snapshot-image2998475492214471993~2.jpg (55.55 KiB) Viewed 3844 times

Very gentle start to the week. Slower than last run through intentionally after a quite heavy CTC run over the weekend and with half an eye on the week ahead.