what training have free spirits been doing today?

[Ian Bee]

Iain - I've added some notes to today's graph:

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This was tough. Last time through I bailed midway through rep two, and this time with gritted teeth made it though broke the HR cap and slipped on pace targets for reps 2 and 3. In reality:
Rep 1 - marathon pace - achieved (but probably unwise)
Rep 2 - 10k pace - pace missed by around 2s and hurt....
Rep 3 - HM pace ISH - pace missed by 0.5s so I could treat this as a score draw.

[Mat]

That looks like a really tough session Ian
To increase to a full 20' at 10k pace after already doing 20' at MP, and then allowing only a slight drop in pace to HM pace for another 20' is a big ask. Huge respect for getting through it

[Iain]

Thanks Ian, that makes sense. Well done for getting through (more than I managed today, see CTC thread). At about 5k HR cap at end of 2nd & 3rd intervals shows how tough that was. I think that a slower or passive rest was needed before the final 20' as HR still significantly elevated. Not inclined to try that one! I'm surprised that they don't reverse the 1st 2 intervals. As Mat says, due to your pace you had run about 10k when ending the second interval. Yes it was a little easier than a full on 10k due to the slightly easier pace for first half and you have had a bit of rest, but I find MP quite tough enough for Hr+.

[spidermac]

Back to workouts for mortals!
am - climbing training
pm - 30minR20
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
06:00.0 1333 20 136 02:15.0
06:00.0 1334 20 139 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 142 02:14.9
06:00.0 1335 20 144 02:14.8
06:00.0 1334 20 144 02:14.9
30:00.0 6668 20 141 02:14.9
CD -1k
Good to see HR coming down a bit.

[Emander]

I'm trying to get a feel for suitable power for a 2k time trial, 200 W is too much (I can hold it for maybe 2 mins) but 160 W is too conservative, I'll see if I can sustain 170 W next.

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[Mat]

Nice work Spider
Good stuff Emander It’s always difficult to know what pace to aim for in a 2k TT (and tbh it never gets any easier).
It may be worth trying an interval interval session such as 6 x 1’ with 1’ rest. The average pace for a session such as this will often give a ball-park pace for an all-out 2k.
I’ve got to be honest in that I’m struggling to convert watts to the usual pace that is often used for indoor rowing which is mins/500m.
Good luck with the TT

It was my 3x6’ session today, and following a Hyrox session yesterday I was a little apprehensive, but happy in the end though I almost baled befor the last interval!
Last week’s pace was 1:50.9, 1:49.7 and 1:49.3

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[spidermac]

Nice improvement in a week Mat.
Off to hospital for my monthly infusion so squeezed something in early - supposed to be a 40min EM session change spm every 10min but ran out of time & energy! so cut it short to 30mins.
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
10:00.0 2263 20 152 02:12.5
10:00.0 2329 22 163 02:08.8
10:00.0 2385 24 167 02:05.7
30:00.0 6975 22 160 02:09.0
CD - 1k
A tuff one. Think I would have to go a bit easier in earlier rounds to do another one at 26spm!!

[Iain]

Great to see so much training going on. Spider, 2 solid sessions. Your HR improvement on the 30R20 is spectacular, while the rate ladder is tough with 10' at each rate, well done getting that far!

Mat, excellent improvement, that final 6' was deep in the pain cave I'm sure.

Eric, good solid session. Your HR recovers so quickly in the active recovery! As Mat says 2k is a tough one. However I would be a little cautious trying to maintain 6 x 1'r1' pace. Time intervals correspond to different distance intervals depending on pace. I can do 10 x 1'r1' at around my 1k pace! Unfortunately the only good pacers are nearly as tough as a 2k! My goto is 4 x 1k r4' where the average is about what I hold for the first 1500 of my 2k then increase the pace for a "sprint" finish. However to do justice in a 2k you do need to get "comfortable" at higher rates. The faster strokes need to be coordinated with your breathing. Irt is easy to maintain R30+ for 1-2 min at a time as insufficient oxygen can be compensated by oxygen debt. But beyond this it will bite you. I find 500 intervals with 2-3 min rest between works to "practice" the higher rating without pushing me to the point that my stroke falls apart (try 6 - . Then you can try the 1ks, perhaps starting a bit conservative (your 170W?) then trying to make the second and third a bit faster (couple of Watts per interval?), while starting the last say trying to hold 180W for the first 700 then increase the rating for each of the last 3 100s. If your legs go to jelly, reduce the length of your slide, I sometimes do the last 50 - 100 with almost no slide and rating anything up to 50! - Good luck!

After yesterday's failed CTC, building to a long session of 5k intervals tomorrow night, I did my first wholly UT2 session for a long time, same pace as usual, but Max HR 80% (I know many use lower thresholds, but that feels right RPE for me!):

Time Distnc Rate Pace Hrmax % HRmin %
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 140 76.1% 089 48.4%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 144 78.3% 135 73.4%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 146 79.3% 139 75.5%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 146 79.3% 139 75.5%
15:00 3,150 17 02:22.9 147 79.9% 140 76.1% - shame broke OCD
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 145 78.8% 137 74.5%
1:30 18903 17.0 2:22.8 147 79.9%

[Mat]

I would be a little cautious trying to maintain 6 x 1'r1' pace. Time intervals correspond to different distance intervals depending on pace. I can do 10 x 1'r1' at around my 1k pace! Unfortunately the only good pacers are nearly as tough as a 2k!

You're right of course Iain - I'd meant 6 x 500m r1' rather than 6x1'
And of course any true 2k predictor will always be tough!

Really good consistent UT2 session Iain Even if you did just miss the OCD result

[Ian Bee]

Thanks for the feedback Iain and Mat – as you’ll note below I held back today to get a bit more recovery in.

Spider – the r20 pieces are definitely paying off, and today’s session looks high quality too – nice spm/pace shifting.

Emander – good luck on the 2k prep and some good advice on the shorter rep/short rest training. Similarly, pacing predictions for 2k haven't particularly worked for me, and 2k is consistently above predicted times: In my case the relationship is disturbingly linear when plotted from 500m to 30 minute PBs aside from that (Mat – 200w fits to around 2min pace with me).

Mat – Good luck on your Hydrox prep - when's your race? That is definitively something I wouldn’t do: the amount of running just would not suit me at all, though the burpees (at the right moment) don’t seem so bad!

Iain – good session and holding under 80% at that rate is certainly hugely beneficial.

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Held back from current targets to keep HR under better control - target should be 85-92% but as is evident I was markedly under that. Consequently, going was if not easy then certainly in proportion. Comparing this to the same point in my training week a little while ago, I had an overall average pace of 2:00.5 / HR 85% against 2:02.8 / HR 79% so yesterday's efforts were still showing. Happier with speed of recovery though, so well worth the refocus.

[Iain]

Nice endurance session there. HR nicely under control despite the hard work. Re Mat's suggestion, 6x500r1'is about 2k pace, but only if done at 2k rating, it is possible to do significantly quicker by trading unsustainable rate for pace.

[Emander]

Every thing started out badly for todays training. I planned to do a managable piece for 40 min piece at 90% of 10k power (10k power would be 2:13.5 pace, 90% of that equals 2:18.9 pace). In the first 10 mins the tablet that I have ErgZone on turns off the screen, I turn on the screen and carry on slightly irritated that the numbers will be messed up (erging is really a look-at-numbers sport, everything is so measurable). When the screen goes dark a second time, I feel the training is already messed up lets just go for the 2k. So todays training was a ~20min warm up followed by a 2k TT.

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Mat and Iain- Those six 1 min on / 1min off intervals, is the rest doing nothing? Because at a rate of 30-32 then I could possibly do them 2:03-2:04 pace range. But to keep that pace over slightly more than 8 mins is gonna be considerably more painful than what I did today. I guess Iains comment about rate might be the answer here.

Now I have a score on the board atleast

[Iain]

Eric (please let me know if I have remembered that wrong Emander), great 2k. I suspect that the inflections on the HR graph tell a fuller story. Impressive that you accelerated towards the end of the first 500. This is around what I call "the first crisis" when you are still partly running anaerobically as your aerobic system is not fully up to speed, but the oxygen debt is significant and it dawns on you that at this rate you wu=ill soon have to stop (of course the CV system reduces / eliminates the deficit so theis doesn't become terminal unless you have the pace very wrong!). But you probably quickly doubted the wisdom of this before resuming anyway (not enough is written of the boneheadedness of the erger!). Then a second pause at 750 when the magnitude of what is to come really hits (this is about the 40% where Pete claimed you will always doubt finishing). Bu despite this only a slight decline in 2nd & 3rd 500s and a good push to the finish. Not that I recommend another attempt for a while, but next time you can start knowing that you can manage 2:06. So try and hold that pace and you will find you can still go faster at the end by raising the rate for another best.

I assume the Max HR assessments are not set correctly! What is the max HR that you have recorded on the rower? if you read above it is 6 x 500m, so over 12 min or rowing at your pace!

Iain

[Emander]

Yes, it's Eric

Yes, 6 x 500 m (I missed the updated info) that makes sense. Max heart rate recorded on the erg is 185 bpm, but that is artificially capped due to beta blockers after a minor heart infarction 4 years ago. I'm not sure what that affects when it comes to interpreting heart rate during exercise. The doctors have given me the all clear for rigorous exercise.

[Mat]

That looks like a really well controlled session Ian - well paced and well executed, even with the previous session still in your legs

Good luck on your Hydrox prep - when's your race? That is definitively something I wouldn’t do: the amount of running just would not suit me at all, though the burpees (at the right moment) don’t seem so bad!

Thanks, my daughter asked if I'd team up with her in a mixed doubles pair, and we've got a ticket for Manchester in January. I've really enjoyed the change in training tbh, especially doing a little running again. I had to give up post hip replacement, but I've convinced myself that the controlled treadmill running i'm doing for this isn't damaging (it was the mountain and ultra running that wore out the hip!). Plus, the lower body exercises are beneficial in keeping the muscles around the bionic hip trained

Now I have a score on the board at least

You've more than that Eric - you rescued a session after a technical failure that may have seen many of us give up for another day! You've also gone through the 2k TT and gained the experience of how it feels, and laid down a marker for your next attempt (too early to mention next time? )

Nice 2k, especially with enough in the tank for an increase in pace towards the end

[Ian Bee]

Eric - agree with all the positive comments and very much of the view that a completed session after being derailed is to drawer.

Simple 2x 30 today:

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Had more in the locker but in the office today so a smidge of self preservation came into the equation. Positives are the fairly level HR throughout and holding 18spm for the period (it's not natural at all for me given my absence of height).

[Emander]

Thanks for all the encouragement Now I'll try to do some steady state sessions and work on my stroke, I could perhaps increase my SPI a little.

[Iain]

Nice session Ian, looking consistent.

Eric, good if you can up the SPI, but trying to do so can be fraught with issues as it too often comes with increased inefficiency (such as over extending leanback or snatching the catch. You may be able to get it a bit higher by eliminating errors in the stroke (I still pull bad strokes when pace drops 2S/500m - eg dropping hands at the catch or taking the catch with bent arms) and the more tired I get the harder it is to maintain a good stroke. But generally the instinct to "just pull harder" can be counter-productive. I still think that there are bigger gains available to you through increasing the rating, although this will put more load on your CV system (if you keep your strokes as strong), so if the Beta blockers reduce your attainable HRMax and hence VO2 Max, you might be right that a stronger stroke is the only remaining option.

[Iain]

Took Friday morning off so did 10 x 5k in the evening. This took it out of me so LSD today, a bit short of time so stopped at 1:30.

Time Distnc Rate Pace Hrmax % HRmin %
23:59.6 5,000 17 02:24.0 145 78.8% 085 46.2% - struggling to keep pace to target at R17
23:59.7 5,000 17 02:24.0 147 79.9% 111 60.3%
23:59.9 5,000 17 02:24.0 151 82.1% 122 66.3% - started 30S late so needed to row faster to meet target. Blister on hand popped.
23:59.6 5,000 17 02:24.0 147 79.9% 108 58.7% - struggling to hold R17, slowing when I lose concentration
23:59.6 5,000 17 02:24.0 148 80.4% 111 60.3%
24:00.4 5,000 17 02:24.0 150 81.5% 117 63.6% - more of a fight
23:59.6 5,000 17 02:24.0 150 81.5% 117 63.6%
23:59.3 5,000 17 02:23.9 151 82.1% 120 65.2% - Blister on other hand went as well
23:59.8 5,000 17 02:24.0 151 82.1% 122 66.3%
23:55.7 5,000 17 02:23.6 152 82.6% 122 66.3%
3:59:53.2 50000 17 2:23.9 152 82.6%

15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 139 75.5% 094 51.1%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 141 76.6% 134 72.8%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 143 77.7% 137 74.5%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 146 79.3% 139 75.5%
15:00 3,150 17 02:22.9 146 79.3% 142 77.2% - Missed OCD by 1 again!
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 147 79.9% 140 76.1%
1:30 18903 17.0 2:22.8 147 79.9%

[spidermac]

Just casually throwing in a 50k Iain - amazing!! Followed by another long ( to me anyway) row.
Overdid some bulgarian split squats on Fri = massive DOMS yesterday & today!! No fool like an old fool, coupled with wallpapering & painting decided any wout would be a bonus so the old favourite.
WUp - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
06:00.0 1334 20 138 02:14.9
06:00.0 1335 20 139 02:14.8
06:00.0 1334 20 142 02:14.9
06:00.0 1335 20 145 02:14.8
06:00.0 1335 20 146 02:14.8
30:00.0 6670 20 142 02:14.9
CD - 1k
Pretty similar to last time but at least not gone backwards. & 8 point increase in HR over the piece good.

[Emander]

Iain - Impressive 50k, do you do that straight up without rest (water- and bathroom breaks)?

I tried out putting more power into each stroke, but it makes for a very inconsistent stroke for me. Perhaps it would be better to just try to increase strength in the gym instead. Or just rate higher, I think I can push the rate up to 30 spm and still keep the technique together.

Todays session was a 40 min steady session.

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[Iain]

Spider, good to manage a session after a busy day.
Eric took 1 min between each 5k (so I could drink without having to row one handed that rips my hands up fast), only one toilet break and then had to make up time. Anything new is likely to be inconsistent, the issue is whether it is sustainable. It takes a while to get used to a different stroke, but a few weeks with 500s at the higher rating and you should be able to manage a higher rating, although 10% increase in rating is probably a bit much, you need to be doing 500s at R32 to have a chance of maintaining R30 for a 2k, so likely to take over a month.

Continued the theme with another 2 hours, managed OCD, I think the most OCD splits I've ever managed. R17 was getting tough towards the end. Hands in a bit of a mess, hope I can manage a short session tomorrow morning. Also some chaffing on derriere and some discomfort around pac that looks suspiciously like recurrence of shingles, hoping it is just a sweat rash. Still fitness seems to be improving as in better state than shorter sequence last weekend.

Time Distnc Rate Pace Hrmax % HRmin %
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 144 78.3% 101 54.9%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 147 79.9% 137 74.5%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 149 81.0% 141 76.6%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 150 81.5% 144 78.3%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 151 82.1% 143 77.7%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 150 81.5% 145 78.8%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 150 81.5% 143 77.7%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 150 81.5% 144 78.3%
2:00 25603 17.0 2:20.6 151 82.1%

[ArenT]

I've been broadly following a 10km rowing training plan, i.e. optimised for this longer distance. In practice that means, very broadly speaking and simplified, about 50% of the workouts are longer UT2 pieces (e.g. a representative example would be 2 x 6500m, 2 min rest), and the rest consist of power intervals (e.g. a representative example would be 10 x 300m, 1 min rest) where the emphasis is on low stroke rates and high-ish but not maximal efforts, or UT1/AT workouts such as 4 x 2000m / 3 min rest, as a representative example. It'd definitely working, as without having done all-out test efforts (e.g. maximal 2k piece) I can tell my effective rowing FTP/2k pace has definitely improved, and in particular the interval efforts feel far less painful than they did initially. I've bumped the effective FTP/relative 2k split pace up a couple of times in the last month or so.

And really it has fundamentally been about volume. On target for about another 300km this month.

The tricky thing is balancing the rowing against maintaining a couple of (short) strength training workouts, plus getting in some SkiErg and BikeErg + outdoor running in to keep everything balanced. But the RowErg is my centerpiece, the rest get fitted in as ancillary/cross-training exercises.

Anyway, the great thing about having a training plan is feeling free to deviate from it occasionally/as appropriate (for whatever reason). I realised looking at my logbook I was near the magical 4 million mark, and was already planning a longer steady-state endurance workout (originally on the bike), so decided that the necessary distance of 15642m was actually perfect for a SkiErg effort as I haven't logged many meters on it the last couple of months (see attachment), and all my workouts this week have been rowing, so... Was pretty much a 2:15 pace when you exclude the brief stop to drink with 7km to go, and the initial fiddling during the first 1km when I was altering music volume from the loudspeakers so I could hear it properly over the flywheel. Little bit of aerobic decoupling/cardiac drift, so no doubt further room for base endurance improvements. Note to self: don't exercise with bare feet in a cold room, even though I was pouring with sweat, my feet were like icicles by the end! I'm genetically predisposed to cold feet (and hands).

---

Some great workouts by everyone, and Ian Bee, I really like some of your workouts, so I might plagiarise them, haha, particularly as our numbers are so close (and I think we're physiologically very similar as well; almost identical age, and if I continue to drop my bit of excess weight, I'd end up being somewhere in the 70-75kg weight range too).

[Iain]

NIcely done Aren. Never used a Skierg, but understand it is slower than rower for same effort, so a good workout.

[Iain]

Not fully recovered from the last 3 days of rowing, especially hands, but thought I would do a UT1 session pre-work, amazed was OCD as rating all over the place, knew I would struggle to hold R19 at this pace (added my weekly 5M/15') but R20 was naturally a bit faster, so much R19 & R21 throughout and adjusting of pace. Lost more skin off my hand, but generally felt fine, not sure whether pain tolerance or fitness has improved, but I need both anyway!

Time Distnc Rate Pace Hrmax % HRmin %
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 148 80.4% 075 40.8%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 154 83.7% 146 79.3%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 156 84.8% 150 81.5%
15:00 3,321 20 02:15.5 157 85.3% 150 81.5%
15:00 3,251 18 02:18.4 153 83.2% 148 80.4% - intended as C/D but decided a slightly slower extra interval would not go amiss.
1:15 16532 19.6 2:16.1 157 85.3%