what training have free spirits been doing today?

[spidermac]

Strong stuff Mat & an improvement despite HD`s!
Ian great improvement - +181m
Last 3 days spent on the sofa with a bad cough/cold - decided to try some rowing today but no heroics.
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
06:00.0 1334 20 143 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 146 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 149 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 150 02:14.9
06:00.0 1333 20 151 02:15.0
30:00.0 6666 20 147 02:15.0
CD - 1k
HR a bit elevated but breathing was OK - see what the after effects are tommorow!

[spidermac]

Winter has arrived!! 3 degrees in the garage this am - might be time to move indoors.
Still not feeling great & RHR hi so just a repeat of yesterdays wout as hands too sore to do any climbing training.
wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
06:00.0 1334 20 142 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 146 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 147 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 150 02:14.9
06:00.0 1333 20 152 02:15.0
30:00.0 6664 20 147 02:15.0
CD - 1k
Happy to do something but frustrating that I seem to be standing still in my training.

[Iain]

Spider, call that a repeat? 3 of the HRs were different . Well done for getting these done while not 100%.

After Friday's minutes my whole body ached (not helped by broken night thanks to an over amorous dog), so LSD Saturday morning. Settled into a slightly faster pace so stayed with it. Sunday redid EF session above as promised despite still being quite tired with minor DOMS in calves (may have been using them more on Saturday's walk). Just on HR caps. Today still had the DOMS in calves, but other muscles aching too, but day off tomorrow so did an LSD, HRM spiked down a few times, so difficult to be sure of HRmins on this.

Time Distnc Rate Pace Hrmax % HRmin %
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 136 73.9% 080 43.5%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 141 76.6% 132 71.7%
15:00 3,200 17 02:20.6 144 78.3% 136 73.9% - brief break
15:00 3,200 17 02:20.6 139 75.5% 098 53.3%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 141 76.6% 135 73.4%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 143 77.7% 136 73.9%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 143 77.7% 136 73.9%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 144 78.3% 138 75.0%
2:00 25601 17.0 2:20.6 144 78.3%

06:00.0 1,451 26 02:04.1 164 89.1% 102 55.4% - Not as bad as expected
09:00.0 2,021 20 02:13.6 159 86.4% 153 83.2% - HR in band once dropped
06:00.0 1,450 25 02:04.1 167 90.8% 112 60.9% - still hard, but no worse than last week
09:00.0 2,021 20 02:13.6 163 88.6% 151 82.1% - HR ticked up to 85.4% briefly after dropping
06:00.0 1,451 25 02:04.1 168 91.3% 117 63.6% - Hard but never in doubt
09:00.0 2,021 20 02:13.6 163 88.6% 154 83.7% - twice hit 85.4% so right on cap
06:00.0 1,458 26 02:03.5 170 92.4% 118 64.1% - just exceeded cap for spike
09:00.0 2,027 20 02:13.2 163 88.6% 154 83.7% - HR spiked back to 85.8% after slowing , averaged about cap!
24:00 5,810 25.5 2:03.9 170 92.4%
36:00 8,091 20.0 2:13.5 163 88.6%

15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 139 75.5% 078 42.4% - too many R16s, lucky not averaged to it.
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 140 76.1% 133 72.3%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 145 78.8% 134 72.8% - now more R18 than R16, pace getting more erratic 2:19-23!
15:00 3,200 17 02:20.6 145 78.8% 138 75.0% - missed OCD as bringing pace down at end.
15:00 3,200 17 02:20.6 143 77.7% 138 75.0% - glad no time to do more intervals!
1:15 16000 17.0 2:20.6 145 78.8%

[Ian Bee]

Training movement is a funny thing Spider - I'd say (if it isn't an in the moment blip), you will see benefits from the consistent training you're doing.

Iain - impressive distances again, particularly at that rate.

Creeping my Sunday distance up (24k now, holding pace to 2.08ish, 22spm).

Today:
[attachment=0]20241118_093501~2.jpg[/attachment]

Bit faster than last time for similar level effort which is reassuring. Not particularly steady though which I need to watch - and by that I mean there's a fair amount of noise in the graph. That may well be something I have to live with as holding 18spm at this pace is not difficult per session, but needs concentration .

[Ian Bee]

20241119_091010~2.jpg (76.35 KiB) Viewed 1401 times

Very chilly this morning so invested a little more time in my warm up than normal. Did it help? Possibly.

Last time through was a little adrift of target pace, so there was a easy win here in the end. Big plus is the improvement in recovery HR.

[Iain]

Your HR drops much faster than mine, and significantly quicker than yourself 3 months ago, when dropping from 5k to FM pace, clearly the plan is working. Interesting that you are more cautious on this session, completing 15M less than the 6'/9' from a week ago, although I understand that the extra minute of 5k pace is both daunting and a challenge. Surprised that you were at R26 last time, do you think that the longer FM row yesterday (and presumably on Sunday although not recorded here) had an effect? As you can see from my results above I am giving myself an easier run into these types of sessions and then hitting them harder (perhaps too hard as haven't had DOMS for some time!).

[Ian Bee]

Thanks Iain. Yes: it looks like I was overly cautious on this one relative to last week. The (marginally) greater part of the reduced distance was on the marathon reps so I will need to keep myself honest on those. As I move through the 12 week cycle (and repetitions thereof), I should have fewer of these oddities to rationalise (but probably more HD or missed targets to discuss).
I don't think that my Sunday row had much influence on this result as I let myself row at a natural SPM and didn't particularly push the pace - my interpretation of a decent UT2 session to relax rather than challenge.

[Mat]

Great training all

Spider - encouraging training given that you’re fighting a cold as well as the cold

Many metres again from Iain even when feeling the effects of such high mileage in previous days

And ongoing improvements from Ian with such control n the training as the metres continue to climb

3 x 6’ r2’ for me this morning which I followed with 3 x 1k on the Ski erg, as I continue to get the rhythm right.

When setting up the row, I realised how frequently I’ve gone off too fast and baled on the third so kept it controlled today

IMG_1909.png (70.21 KiB) Viewed 1360 times

IMG_1910.png (40.02 KiB) Viewed 1360 times

[Ian Bee]

Amongst other things to be impressed over : incredibly fast HR recovery and well done on the pacing

20241120_100316~2.jpg (77.52 KiB) Viewed 1309 times

Very, very cold this morning (excuse no.1), so I'm not entirely surprised that my HR was a little patchy though within the cap (or more precisely at the limit).

The second rep is proving my nemesis - the pace *shouldn't* be that bad for 17min, but it takes on a persona of its own by one third through and it's a proper battle to keep going....

[spidermac]

Mat nice controlled -ve split.
Ian - I have finally succumbed & moved rower out of the garage - frost hasn`t lifted here for the last 3 days.
Iain I can feel the OCD crown slowly slipping!
Power strokes today - always a tuff one. First 6 sets @ drf - 170; last one at 117.
Wup - 2k
Time dist spm HR split
03:00.0 744 23 160 02:00.9 - 2min@22spm+1min@24
03:00.0 749 23 165 02:00.1 - 2min@22spm+1min@24
03:00.0 759 25 170 01:58.5 - 2min@24spm+1min@26
03:00.0 760 25 171 01:58.4- 2min@24spm+1min@26
03:00.0 763 26 172 01:57.9 -1min ea @24/26/28spm
03:00.0 765 26 172 01:57.6 -1min ea @24/26/28spm
03:00.0 765 30 172 01:57.6 - 1min ea @ 28/30/32spm
21:00.0 5305 25 168 01:58.7
CD - 1k
Felt a bit shaky but not too bad a wout. Managed to equal split of 2nd last set @170drf on last set at normal drag - usually a good bit slower!!!

[Iain]

Nicely done Spider, 3' of power strokes is no joke! Also spot on with ratings

[Iain]

Apologies for double post, didn't see all the work that had been done on previous (quick) visit!

Mat, nice 6'. Awkward distance as seems achievable at VO2 max as less than 2k, but you have to do 3 so actually only maintainable a bit above 5k pace! Came across https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX20U3Ix4jU from John re Hyrox rowing. Mostly aimed at those far less experienced on the rower, but interesting take on adapting the rowing stroke and how to vary the row depending on your state going into it. Shame that he doesn't cover the non-rowing demands (which was what I was more interested in) ie legs, back & arm loads of the other elements. Also for any other Hyrox participants reading this, I feel that John is writing more from his perspective than across the spectrum of competitors. He is very tall and so can get more from his back than others, you are closer to him so can take his advice, but for those with a shorter back they will need to be more realistic about what power their back can produce. Interesting take on stroke rate even suggesting R20 appropriate for the 1k for some of the least fit athletes! Not sure whether he is exaggerating for the benefit of gym rowers, but I would have thought R24 is at the low end. He is suggesting R28 "normal". I would have thought R30 more normal but have never done Hyrox. Lastly interesting that he leaves spring technique alone. I assumed that a Crossfit approach of using a spring stroke would be normal. Yes that requires you to have a relatively stronger upper body than most rowers, but I would have thought that would be typical for the competitors.

Ian, nicely done on this nasty session. 17' is an age! If you deduct the 3' of all out effort at the end, for you this is 50% of a 10k TT. Pete always used to say that you should doubt you can maintain the pace 40% of the way through any all out TT, so this is a huge effort. Switching into HM pace after that for a significant row is tough. EF reckons on being at 90% HRmax for much of an all out FM, so FM pace after you are tired is 90% HRmax, so HM pace when tired is bound to be tough!

[Recess]

Hi Iain,

Thanks for mentioning my video! I'll say now, that the video is aimed at HYROX athletes when it comes to power etc - it's not meant as a guide for people who sit down and want to bash out a 1Km TT.

So - a few things to unpack from that post though!! The video was looking at just rowing for HYROX when it came to how to apply the power, and looking at the ratios of Legs / Body / Arms. Like I said at one point I'll have got struck off the C2 christmas card list to suggesting anything other than 60/30/10 as the ratio!! The biggest thing to bear in mind in HYROX is that everything that comes before the row is designed to mess you up. The sleds take your legs out of it, and then all the running (and the ski) have already hit cardio - and the burpees can sink most competitors for both.

In which case, some athletes end up just totally spent as they get to the row, and don't know how to deal with it - so they either flap up and down, making things worse - or they go too hard, making things worse! So I tried to put some structure into it for them.

The 20spm example was for those who were totally gassed from a cardio point of view, but still had power in their legs. I tended to say "24spm or lower" - as you properly picked up on 20 being low. But if you can't breathe - slower is better at first, to then speed up to a more comfortable stroke rate once they're no longer breathing out of their ears! And then for everyone else, it becomes the balance of stroke rate and power.

I've made a LOT of videos about technique for HYROX - so I didn't want to go too far into it in this one, other than to talk the right sequencing, then posture, not tugging on the the straps, and no over-compressing - all of which I know I'll see 99% of the rowers doing all three when I'm racing in London next weekend. But the vast majority of HYROX'ers don't want to listen about technique, even if they DO want to know how to be faster (oh the irony).

And like I say, it's all relative. If you work backwards from a 10% arm pull in a 60/30/10 ratio - then it's not about putting everything into the stroke with your legs, it's about driving with power, letting the back take over, and finishing with the arms. It's not a lurch and yank!

And the last thing to reply to is when you suggest I'm writing from my point of view, rather than the spectrum of competitors. Quite the opposite. I go into the row - sit down, strapless, and bash out a 24spm rate at whatever power is in my body at a decent technique. I don't over-think it, I don't take the load off my legs, I just row the only way I know how. But the large spectrum of competitors approach the row in many different states. From those who have totally blown up, to those who want to row fast, but not use their legs (the elites).

Oh, and I'm only 178cm tall.

Finally - Spring Technique? I've tried searching for what this is, can you let me know what you mean?

John.

[Iain]

Thanks for your thoughts John. Apologies for getting you mixed up with one of the other UTube ergers re size. I like to think that I can't get close to other people because they are giants when in reality I am just not fit enough!

Finally - Spring Technique? I've tried searching for what this is, can you let me know what you mean?

Not sure whether you were joking, but in case you weren't, this was a typo for Sprint. See viewtopic.php?t=4202 This does work. Before I adopted it my 100m PB was 18.7, so have shaved 0.6S off when I have lost at least 2kg of muscle. Essentially the benefits you talked about in your video as 18.1 was at >70SpM while the 18.7 was in low 40s, but inevitably the stroke is compromised. At the other extreme Rob Smith set at least 2 100M WR (2 when I was present) with a much foreshortened stroke and >70SpM. You suggest that not sequencing means you cannot put the power down. Probably true of Arms with legs for those without guns like a gorilla, but while not generally advisable, it is possible to use legs and back together. But I assume that Hyrox is too long for a sprint technique to be beneficial and the more efficient conventional stroke is better.

[Recess]

Haha, I wasn't sure - as you'd typed it twice, I didn't want to assume it was a typo!

There's just no need for a sprint technique in HYROX. Some people will start off with the 'double yank' thing to get the flywheel moving, but like you said - that super fast start is for full on sprints where 10th of a second really matters. In HYROX, the row is just ~4mins of a race which lasts 54 minutes (at World Record pace). And the "Out of the blocks fast" sprint technique - at best is pointless in the middle of a HYROX, at worst - a mistake, as it'll just spike the heart rate up again at a point where it's best spent trying to get under control - and even if it's just the 2K fast start that we're talking about, which utilises the 'free ATP' - that's LOOOOOOONG gone in HYROX.

Again - the gorillas are all arms anyway, very little legs, 0 backswing, and all arms pull at the back. But they DO manage to row the 1K (in the middle of everthing else) at around 1:45 pace - but they won't listen to advice. I've been told to "Pipe it Bro!" by the biggest fella (Hunter) when trying to give hiim advice. Hopefully the non-gorillas will think about their energy demands though!

[Iain]

I tend to use sprints more at the end. At the start with a dead flywheel you need the legs. At the end of a TT I have sometimes had complete "jelly legs" where the legs have no strength and at best respond slowly, so I shorten the slide up and don't wait for the legs to finish before using back and legs, that way I can take the rating way up and maintain (or even sometimes increase) the pace to the end. Not clever for the all out version in Hyrox as will leave you in a mess for the next event. But some crossfitters do use a similar stroke at a lower rating for everything including some grueling challenges.

[Mat]

Great session Spider - a real challenge to mix up DF and stroke rate through a session, nicely executed
Really nice improvement on that session Ian

Interesting to read the discussion above - thanks John and Iain.
I’m fairly sure that Iain may have posted this to bring my attention to it knowing that I’m preparing for a Hyrox session in Jan - thanks Iain I’ll have a look at the video tomorrow but its late atm and I’m just winding down after a late session grouting the tiles I laid earlier in one of our cottages

I recognise the benefit of John’s insight into rowing for Hyrox athletes, many of whom have rarely used a rower and certainly have no idea of technique, whether on a stand alone session, or in the middle of a Hyrox event!

I’m quite fortunate in that I’m doing this one after my daughter asked me to join her in a mixed doubles entry, so we get to share the stations according to our strengths. This means a little more recovery and less work! I tend to do a “full” run through on a Sunday morning (where full means what I expect to do on the day) and find that I’m not as trashed by the time I get to the row as I would be if I were doing the whole thing myself!

As such, when it comes to rowing, my plan is simply to jump on and do a steady row around R25, somewhere just under 1:50 pace which I know I can knock out without exhausting myself, but without losing much time over an all-out effort. When my daughter is back over Christmas we’ll work out how to split the row, but I expect to do the lions share as she’ll take a greater burden in some other stations.

As I say though, it’s a very different event as a doubles pair than on your own!

I must say, that being in a few Hyrox groups as I familiarise myself with what to expect, I can honestly say that John’s insight into rowing is invaluable for many in the Hyrox community (how many times can you explain drag factor without losing your mind?!).
In a personal level, I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you John for the fantastic training plans you’ve provided - I rarely row along to the videos, but have found the plans invaluable, especially as they’re pre-loaded into Ergzone - thank you

[Recess]

I must say, that being in a few Hyrox groups as I familiarise myself with what to expect, I can honestly say that John’s insight into rowing is invaluable for many in the Hyrox community (how many times can you explain drag factor without losing your mind?!).
In a personal level, I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you John for the fantastic training plans you’ve provided - I rarely row along to the videos, but have found the plans invaluable, especially as they’re pre-loaded into Ergzone - thank you

It's a pleasure. Over the coming year, I'm going to go over all those plans and remake them on the 'Spaceship' rowing machine. Partly for that market, but also because the RowAlong's on YouTube are around 4 years old now, and I've got a lot more to say! But I'm still amazed that something I did 'just to see if anyone was interested' has stuck. Maybe not to the size of the guy on the horse, or the fella who isn't small, but enough people seem to enjoy the plans, and the videos (don't worry, I'd not watch me either!).

Good luck with HYROX doubles. I have to say, doing the Manchester event as a doubles was a totally different animal. In fact now you've brought it up, I realise I should have said something in my video - but really, it's either the "I have all the energy in the world", or the " I need to take a moment here" style of athlete that is likely to be how you'll feel. It's how I felt anyway. In singles, I'm usually around 24spm and 1:55 pace - not fast at all, finding an intensity where I'm not slowing down, but my heart rate can settle. Whereas in the doubles, I was 28spm / 1:42 pace as I had a LOT more capacity with Martin taking some of the work. (I've got a video "HYROX vs Cake" that has a review of how we got on, if you haven't spotted it? https://youtu.be/1-igof4Er3I

Best advice I can give you is to make sure to communicate the whole way through. Go in with a plan, but make sure to talk to each other if you need to deviate!

John

[Mat]

Thanks for the insight John. I’m looking forward to the event, and to working out how to balance the workload whilst Lucie is back over Christmas. Your post does make me realise that I may need to up my big boy pants and put a harder shift in on the erg
We’ll be in Manchester at the end of Jan

[spidermac]

Had my covid/flu jab on thurs so new I would be suffering for a few days - did 0 yesterday & thought my usual 30minR20 for today.
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split
06:00.0 1333 20 139 02:15.0
06:00.0 1334 20 145 02:14.9
06:00.0 1333 20 147 02:15.0
06:00.0 1334 20 151 02:14.9
06:00.0 1334 20 153 02:15.0
30:00.0 6666 20 147 02:15.0
CD - 1k
Felt quite hard - battling arthritis;a cough/cold/leukemia & covid/flu jab simultaneously seems to have an effect!!!!

[Iain]

Spider, well done to get through this at your usual pace. Sure HR will be a bit lower next time!

Felt stiff after the unexpected exertion of the CTC (which may have one at high DF as don't know when C-breeze blew off. Usual long trow on Saturday. Held recent faster pace and found this significantly harder for the extra 1.2S/500m, think it is the extra 5% SPI as I do it at the same SpM, Hr too high. Today felt the effects, originally was intending to progress the EF workout to 7' 5k pace and 8' FM, but had already dropped to a repeat as feeling jaded. But warm up was a disaster, struggling to hold 2:00 pace, so decided to use the tired body for a longer row done 5k r1' at a lower pace. Decided not to push for the 60k that was my plan for the next row like this and "only" do 40k. Needed a break after 2 intervals and like last time caught up the 31S stationery this time by 10'. HR way too high for this, but proved I had more in me by rowing at what felt comfortable for last 5k. Not surprisingly still feeling 40k after 13 hours so LSD at slower pace Monday morning, although rowed at UT1 for final interval before slowing into cool down.

Time Distnc Rate Pace Hrmax % HRmin %
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 141 76.6% 079 42.9%
15:00 3,200 17 02:20.6 144 78.3% 135 73.4%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 145 78.8% 138 75.0%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 145 78.8% 099 53.8%
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 148 80.4% 141 76.6% - HR starting to climb
15:00 3,201 17 02:20.6 151 82.1% 145 78.8%
15:00 3,200 17 02:20.6 152 82.6% 147 79.9% - blew OCD
15:00 3,200 17 02:20.6 154 83.7% 149 81.0%
2:00 25601 17.0 2:20.6 154 83.7%

23:59.5 5,000 17 02:23.9 146 79.3% 099 53.8% - HR higher than expected already
23:59.6 5,000 17 02:24.0 145 78.8% 116 63.0% - feeling it in my legs from 5' in
09:29.0 2,084 18 02:16.5 155 84.2% 123 66.8% - after 31S late start due to call of nature
13:59.4 2,916 16 02:23.9 148 80.4% 141 76.6%
23:59.6 5,000 16 02:24.0 148 80.4% 125 67.9% - pace erratic, can't settle at 17 SpM
23:59.5 5,000 16 02:23.9 147 79.9% 118 64.1%
23:59.6 5,000 17 02:24.0 148 80.4% 124 67.4%
23:59.5 5,000 17 02:23.9 150 81.5% 130 70.7%
22:58.5 5,000 19 02:17.8 164 89.1% 129 70.1% - rowed unrestricted, slowly increased pace 'though no sprint.
3:10:24.2 40000 17 2:22.8 164 89.1%

15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 139 75.5% 090 48.9%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 141 76.6% 132 71.7%
15:00 3,150 17 02:22.9 143 77.7% 137 74.5%
15:00 3,151 17 02:22.8 142 77.2% 136 73.9%
15:00 3,387 19 02:12.9 157 85.3% 139 75.5%
05:00 1,050 17 02:22.9 148 80.4% 143 77.7%
1:20 17040 17.4 2:20.8 157 85.3%

[Ian Bee]

Iain - irrespective of objectives, "only" 40k is a significant distance. Missed out on my intended longer distance this weekend so will be eyeing up this coming Sunday for a more focused effort.

Today:

20241125_092108~2.jpg (61.77 KiB) Viewed 582 times

My sense of racing myself got in the way here, as I did increase pace towards the end of the second rep (no doubt I will not appreciate that next time through).

Nice and steady row otherwise, keeping powder dry for tomorrow.....

[Iain]

Nicely done Ian, impressive pace at that HR!

[Mat]

In awe of your training on here:

Spider - so impressive that you keep on churning out these metronomic sessions whilst fighting on other fronts

Iain - only 40k indeed I just couldn’t imagine churning out those metres!!

Great session Ian, though as you mention, you’ll
pay for that next time!

Missed this morning as I had an appointment, and so went in this afternoon, but with a Zwift Racing League race at 6:15am tomorrow, opted to perform the 3 x 12 @ R20

IMG_1935.jpeg (34.65 KiB) Viewed 474 times

[Ian Bee]

Mat - great control at r20

To day:

20241126_084518~2.jpg (70.94 KiB) Viewed 281 times

I cut my warm up shirt because of time constraints this morning so maybe that explains the first rep being a little high HR wise, but otherwise happy with the comparison. Speed of recovery is definitely going the right direction.

This is probably the toughest session of the rotation I'm currently on, though 9min should end up being a good training distance for current goals (at least once I dispell the HD demons to guest appearances).