what training have free spirits been doing today?

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Mat some good consistent training there. I think this session is supposed to be challenging. As for the PP Speed pyramid, I can't see the point of the first interval as a min isn't enough to make this challenging. YOu may have found the middle intervals challenging, but you still neg split them significantly =D> . Colin, great session. For me R20 feels rushed and pushes my HR above 80% fairly quickly at the moment, so tough in a different way than for many others.

After 2 hard sessions Friday & yesterday, despite unexpectedl making weight this morning (probably dehydrated), It had to be an LSD for me at lowish rating, limited time, so only 75 mins today. Despite the higher sessions, pleased HR lower than previously. Looking hopeful for HM this weekend perhaps.

Time Distn Rate Split MaxHR % MinHR %
15:00 3,104 16 02:25.0 141 76.6% 081 44.0%
15:00 3,106 16 02:24.9 146 79.3% 135 73.4%
15:00 3,107 16 02:24.8 148 80.4% 140 76.1%
15:00 3,115 16 02:24.5 152 82.6% 143 77.7%
15:00 3,240 18 02:18.9 162 88.0% 147 79.9%
1:15 15668 16.4 2:23.6 162 88.0%
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by stumpy »

Thanks Iain, good call I tried a lower rating this morning ie 17 and yes I agree felt good and very nearly managed to hold the split and stay under my hr cap of 137 for the 30 minutes so maybe next time. Interesting that you are contemplating a HM this W/E if
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I’m feeling good I may join you.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

I shall look out for HMs this weekend :fswink: - excellent training all round.
I had some rather mundane low rate sessions (an hour at 15spm was a bit of a mental challenge) back end of last week and into this - helpful with the various challenges.

Then this:
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Please with the improvement as this session (in its various guises in the high rate/low 1:52 pace) just feels nasty.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by stumpy »

Today’s assignment just a short 500m sprint at a sub 1:50 split easy yes? well actually no not for me anymore, managed the first 300m then the wheels came off, hopefully I will get a bit further next time.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Now you are reading my mind Colin, worked yesterday and today in office so no time to train, but hope to have a go at the 500 tomorrow morning. That looks like an optimistic target >11S/500m quicker than this month's CTC? Double the improvement required for 800 points. 500s are uniquely nasty as they are too long to do anaerobically, but need you to rate up into anaerobic territory anyway. Better luck next time.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by bierik »

Coincidentally, I finally got around to rowing a proper 500m yesterday for this season. Improved by 0.2 seconds from last season, to 1:33.3. I wholeheartedly agree with you, Iain, it is very nasty. I almost HD'd after the halfway mark and was very glad when it was over. The result pushed me over 800 points in Nonathlon, and should soon remove the nasty red rectangle in Metanonathlon.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

All this talk of sprints makes me feel rather unwell - both good luck and well done to you all!
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Quite sedated after yesterday's flappyness, and I was very grateful for that. 20spm felt almost like a rest and a far more natural combination of rate and pace.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by bierik »

By coincidence, there has just been a new world record for the 500m:
https://www.concept2.com/news/500-meter ... ord-broken
Unfathomably fast ^O^ ^O^
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Unfathomably and disturbing - ratings are just inhuman.

A replica of Mats pyramid:
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Having consistently failed this in the past, my approach is to hold to 2k pace (1:47) for reps 1 and 2, cling on for 3, hold back slightly for 4 and push on the way down. In my head that will give me confidence to gradually get closer to the necessary overall pace.

Generally that emerges as overcooking reps 1-2 as it did here, but the plan is (slowly) moving on.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

Iain wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:43 amYOu may have found the middle intervals challenging, but you still neg split them significantly
Thanks Iain - as you'll see, I backed off a little in the first 3' rep as I was rather scared of emtying the tanks ahead of the 4' interval. Once I'd got through that I was rather more confident of getting through!
Ian Bee wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:23 am A replica of Mats pyramid:
Really nice approach Ian, and good to see the negative splitting on the way back down as the confidence built =D> Even better after a couple of hard sessions the previous two days ^O^
Iain wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:43 am fter 2 hard sessions Friday & yesterday, despite unexpectedl making weight this morning (probably dehydrated), It had to be an LSD for me at lowish rating
I reckon you deserved that low rate session Iain - nicely controlled 8)
stumpy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 3:38 pm Thanks Iain, good call I tried a lower rating this morning ie 17 and yes I agree felt good and very nearly managed to hold the split and stay under my hr cap of 137 for the 30 minutes
Looks like you hit your sweet spot there Colin :D
Nice 300m this week too :wink:
bierik wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:08 am Coincidentally, I finally got around to rowing a proper 500m yesterday for this season. Improved by 0.2 seconds from last season, to 1:33.3.
Well done on the PB =D> =D>
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

A low rate 30' for me today with a bit of a twist - 4' @ R20 then 1' @R15 matching pace, repeat 6 times for the full 30'

I went out a little hard on the first R15 minute and then decided to keep doing that which made it a little harder than the prescribed "Bottom Tier" session :lol:


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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Well done on 500m Kay. I was derailed by failing to make weight this morning (2 days working long hours eating rubbish with just a few miles walking as exercise). Maybe later!

Ian, first (rate) pyramid more metres at lower HR. Job well done. Second "speed" pyramid nicely done, continuing increased distances and nice neg split, Mike C recommended going faster on first 2, so you are in good company!

Mat, monster power at 15.5 SPI! transitions back to R20 must have been tough.

WIth 500 off the ball (or any "Challenge"), decided on session I dreamed up above, 5' r1'. Did 12 at around current hour pace as preparation of intended HM. Struggled with pacing with much yo-yoing and on keeping rating up. Pleased that SPI back where it used to be, but don't think I can sustain that work per stroke for an HM, need to work on keeping rating up. Good news is that HR stayed under control at >HM pace, so bodes well [-o<

Time Distn Rate Split MaxHR % MinHR %
05:00 1,138 21 02:11.8 147 79.9% 96 52.2%
05:00 1,139 20 02:11.7 158 85.9% 120 65.2%
05:00 1,140 20 02:11.6 160 87.0% 124 67.4%
05:00 1,140 20 02:11.6 164 89.1% 130 70.7%
05:00 1,141 20 02:11.5 165 89.7% 129 70.1%
05:00 1,142 20 02:11.3 165 89.7% 134 72.8%
05:00 1,141 20 02:11.5 166 90.2% 135 73.4% - messed up neg split :oops:
05:00 1,142 20 02:11.3 165 89.7% 129 70.1%
05:00 1,142 20 02:11.3 166 90.2% 129 70.1%
05:00 1,144 20 02:11.1 168 91.3% 135 73.4%
05:00 1,156 21 02:09.8 168 91.3% 142 77.2%
05:00 1,218 26 02:03.2 177 96.2% 142 77.2%
1:00 13783 20.7 2:10.6 177 96.2%

Had severe cramp during cooldown (worst since trying to sprint at end of 24hr tandem row). THere is lots of conflicting info on muscle cramps, any thoughts about suggested approach to stop me getting it on the HM (or FM in May)?
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Frans Vliegenberg »

SB today, but started too slow.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Nice attempt Frans and great you were still picking up the pace at the end. I agree a faster start would have helped, as would rating a bit higher. The fastest 500s have all ended with the rower unable to maintain their pace, so you definitely have a good second that you could take off with better pacing.

Back to weight today, but no day off before HM in case I put it back on, so a controlled LSD. AFter starting with lowish rating (quite a few 15s), I kept rating at 17 so as not to leave my legs tired:

Time Distn Rate Split MaxHR % MinHR %
15:00 3,101 16 02:25.1 142 77.2% 098 53.3%
15:00 3,102 17 02:25.1 146 79.3% 138 75.0%
15:00 3,103 17 02:25.0 149 81.0% 143 77.7%
15:00 3,104 17 02:25.0 150 81.5% 146 79.3%
15:00 3,117 17 02:24.4 149 81.0% 145 78.8%
1:15 15521 16.8 2:25.0 150 81.5%
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Iain - hesitate to give too much HM or FM advice with Plummy in earshot but fwiw:
I tend to do my HM and FM (and come to think , 50k and 100k) fasted, but highly fueled from the previous day. Bananas, nuts, high protein and a good amount of fluids. Unless I'm shooting for a fast time, I'll warm up for at most 5 minutes at pace+10. Otherwise, first 1-2k will be appreciably slower.
In my head I'm covering off basic macro nutrition and hydration/rest.

Mat - still following you on the 2k sessions :lol:
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Unlike you, I can't count :roll: - and your power at 15 spm does not compute ^O^
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Thanks for the thoughts Ian and sorry for the dense post. Unfortunately I will need to be a little dehydrated 2 hrs before the row (and due to time constraints probably more like 45 mins), I don't have too much of an issue rowing on a recent meal, so will have a good bowl of porridge post weighing but before rowing. I find that I can load more fluid and, while HR higher in first 30 mins or so, I think it more than makes up for it later, will try and maintain protein input today (and post row). Out of bananas (my family fall on them with more gusto than a troop of chimps and will need to row before I do the weekly shop.

Not clear on your warm up advice. Are you saying you only w/up for faster HM rows and that is your suggested pace, or that this is a reduced w/up that leads to a slower start? Recently I have not been doing a warm up or anything appreciably below threshold (5k or so) pace. That said, due to my low fitness level my initial HM pace will be significantly slower than your warm up pace in any event. I tend to start my warm ups at about current HM pace. Even when faster (During Covid) I have never done a W/up for an HM, FM or 50k including for my PB in 2021 (only PB since 2012). My logic (which may well be floored) is that warm up has 3 purposes, to warm the muscles so that they are less likely to be injured when stressed (not relevant as I would stress them as much or more in warm up as in HM), establish the pace required so that I can settle to quicker (marginal benefit over such a long distance) and to reduce the time I require to get my CV system up to full capacity. This latter may mean that the start is a little harder without a warm up, but I am unlikely to give in or drop the pace given the relatively slow target pace. The excess oxygen debt shouldn't be an issue as I will be rowing far enough below threshold that I should quickly replace it. Yes my heart will work a little harder for a short while, but I don't think cardiac fatigue should be limiting. Just my thoughts, but would welcome a challenge if you disagree at all, especially if you think that I would increase my risk of cramping.

Impressive session. Still failing the stroke count (confused, 20SPM is a stroke exactly every 3S while 15SPM is every 4S, so can't see how you can miss the targets if done precisely at these ratings (I know some people "push the envelope", saw a video of someone setting a 30R20 PB and deliberately pushing slightly above R21 in all but one interval (low enough to be recorded as R21), then R20 for the penultimate interval as PM rounds the averages of the intervals down to 20 despite an average rating of 21 or slightly higher!). Glutton for punishment following Mat in going below target for the 1'! BUt you were closer to target rates, faster and slightly lower HR, so great result.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Thanks for giving such a comprehensive set of thoughts Iain – I’ll emphasise that I’m very much of the sharing experience frame of reference for my part.

For context, my ‘push’ pace of 1:59 requires me to have a warm up. Having listened along with John Steventon (formerly of this parish) he’s now quite taken with the idea of simple movement to get muscles going, and similarly I’ve listened to podcasts from various (seemingly knowledgeable and educated) sports scientists that also suggest warm up can be slowed movements you’ll be training. Its this that I look for in a very gentle warm up – looking at the actual warm up for my PB it was in fact 2:06 pace 1.5k. The paddle HM I did the next day I didn’t do a warm up and averaged 2:06 pace.

I don’t challenge/disagree with your point in terms of reasons for the warm up. I personally find my heart rate will spike quite drastically in that first 5 minutes in rebellion to kicking by CV system into gear so I appreciate the chance to have that variability out of the way before I focus on whatever target I’ve set myself. I’ve recently adopted a kind of sawtooth warm up (varying between 2 minutes of 2:15 then 1 minute of 1:55 – repeated 9 times) which has seemingly done some good as I feel more ready for more taxing paces.

As to whether this definitively helps, I couldn’t hand on heart commit but I can say that my HM weeks generally pass with aches but no cramps.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Frans Vliegenberg »

Iain wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:39 am Nice attempt Frans and great you were still picking up the pace at the end. I agree a faster start would have helped, as would rating a bit higher. The fastest 500s have all ended with the rower unable to maintain their pace, so you definitely have a good second that you could take off with better pacing.
Okey. Interesting. Next time I try a positive splt as an experiment.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Frans, it is a fine line between blowing up and starting too slowly. But a 1:59 target pace (maybe higher if you can get the rate up) should be doable to break that 2:00 barrier.

HM for me as promised today. Bronze target SB 1:37:11, Silver 800 Nonathlon points 1:35:20 Gold, sub 2:14 pace:

Time: Distnc Rate Split MaxHR % MinHR %

11:07.6 2,500 21 02:13.5 155 84.2% 116 63.0% - slightly faster than intended and struggling to maintain 21SPM, hope legs last!
11:07.6 2,500 20 02:13.5 160 87.0% 154 83.7% - Settled on R20 as couldn't settle at pace with R21
11:08.5 2,500 20 02:13.7 164 89.1% 156 84.8% - started to feel harder with R19 2:15s slipping in
11:08.0 2,500 20 02:13.6 165 89.7% 160 87.0% - more variable, but keeping H/D demons at arm's length
11:07.9 2,500 19 02:13.6 165 89.7% 160 87.0% - fighting to keep rating up, starting to extend lay-back as tiring
11:08.8 2,500 19 02:13.8 165 89.7% 160 87.0% - into R19 rhythm
11:04.9 2,500 20 02:13.0 166 90.2% 159 86.4% - took pace up slightly with 5k to go
10:59.2 2,500 20 02:11.8 167 90.8% 161 87.5% - Slow down Demons on my case, but end in sight
04:38.8 1,097 23 02:07.1 171 92.9% 164 89.1% - still had some capacity for a faster last 1k.
1:33:31.4 21097 20.1 2:13.0 171 92.9%


So failed on rate target (may try and get in a couple of SS/grey sessions at higher ratings prior to marathon fortnight), but solid result. HR suggests thayt I could have gone quicker, but definitely didn't feel that way, either going soft or fatigue of last 2 rows made a difference. 29 Nonathlon points for the effort for equal second performance to last Friday's 6k. Just need 500 now as leaving FM to next year! So how did you do Colin?
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Ian Bee »

Nice result Iain - felt every spm of that commentary. Huge chunk to take off your SB.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by stumpy »

Excellent HM Iain well done you smashed it =D> =D> =D> sadly not feeling it at all yesterday so I bailed sorry but there’s still time to get it in before seasons end.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Better luck next time Colin. Ian thanks, not looking forward to trying to beat it in 3 weeks, although focus now on FM for marathon challenge. Feeling a little sore today, so decided my LSD would be R18 rather than my normal ~16. I owe you an apology Ian, struggled to get pace and rating right. Switched to timing every stroke to do exactly R18 as every time I had to speed my rating my pace was increasing. Found I couldn't keep pace down. So it is easy to hit a rate target, but difficult to hit both a rate and pace target (at least for me)!

Time Distn Rate Split MaxHR % MinHR %
15:00 3,114 18 02:24.5 139 75.5% 087 47.3%
15:00 3,129 18 02:23.8 143 77.7% 136 73.9%
15:00 3,136 18 02:23.5 145 78.8% 137 74.5%
15:00 3,141 18 02:23.3 147 79.9% 139 75.5%
15:00 3,180 18 02:21.5 148 80.4% 140 76.1%
15:00 3,222 18 02:19.7 153 83.2% 143 77.7%
1:30 18,916 18.0 2:22.7 153 83.2%


Pleased that even allowing pace to drift faster Avg HR lowest since restart at 141, normally higher rating has meant higher HR. Good start towards FM.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Mat »

That's a pretty bust few days you've had since I last posted Iain :shock: Very consistent set of 5' intervals followed by a nice LSD row and then a gold-target-and-SB-hitting HM followed by another LSD recovery row ^O^ ^O^ Surely time for a rest :lol:

Very nicely controlled 500m Franz 8) In stark contract to the "fly n die" 500s that many of us deliver (myself very much included). As Iain suggests - I'm sure there's room to squeeze a little more out of that :twisted:

Ian - nice R20 with R15s. I do find that session really interesting - the instruction is to maintain the same pace with the R15 minutes, but like me, you've found yourself putting in a really strong minute with a faster pace than the R20s, which then become a form of recovery between the R15 pieces. Nice improvement on the previous session 8)

I've had two cycling sessions since the last row, together with a day off :o and today required 27' @ R25
Pace prescribed was 2k + 12-14, but I went with what felt right ie I could hold it throughout, but it wasn't definitely wasn't comfortable towards the end, and ended up somewhere around 2k + 11

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Just one more (first 5 days in a row for 6 weeks) - as having a day off work and in London tomorrow, so no time to row. After struggling to hold pace and rating in the HM, in preparation for my FM, decided to do today's Hr+ at FM pace (called it a LMD - Long mid-speed distance in my logbook as definitely "grey") to get used to it and see what happens to HR at this pace (ie whether it is feasible). Felt Ok so added another 15' at the end.

Time Distn Rate Split MaxHR % MinHR %
15:00 3,251 19 02:18.4 144 78.3% 092 50.0% - started a bit fast and slowed to target
15:00 3,255 18 02:18.2 152 82.6% 144 78.3% - fast again, didn't want to slow as much as required in last 5 min, sio allowed a slight pace increase
15:00 3,264 18 02:17.9 155 84.2% 149 81.0% - kept at constant pace, HR looks sustainable
15:00 3,419 21 02:11.6 168 91.3% 152 82.6% - concentrating on sitting upright as noticed slouching, pushed on to see how it felt
15:00 3,305 20 02:16.2 162 88.0% 153 83.2% - initially slowed to initial pace, but got into rhythm then pushed last 5 min a bit to beat 3300m.
1:15 16,491 19.2 2:16.4 168 91.3%
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Iain »

Long feared 500m today as current SB of 1:50.8 set at the end of intervals! Sorry Dave, but set your SB (1:48.6) as my target:

Time Dist Rate Split MaxHR % MinHR %

0:21.5 100 36 01:47.5 162 88.0% 116 63.0% - down to 1:43 then settled
0:21.8 100 39 01:49.0 166 90.2% 162 88.0% - in hindsight too conservative
0:21.4 100 39 01:47.0 165 89.7% 163 88.6% - pushed from 330m to go
0:21.2 100 42 01:46.0 165 89.7% 163 88.6% - trying to keep rate up
0:21.1 100 48 01:45.5 167 90.8% 165 89.7% - last 20 strokes mad thrash, legs not gone by end
1:46.9 500 40.9 1:47.0 167 90.8%

So maybe should have settled at 1:47 not 1:49, but happy with result and 26 Nonathlon points as matched HM score. Best for 3 years, but don't do it often!
55 year old Lwt (in ability and in weight) trying to develop a technique that doesn't cause hysterics and continue to row regularly.
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