Benefit of "Long" Intervals for training for long distances

[Iain]

I am currently training for a potential Ultra marathon. Perceived wisdom is that "threshold" is the best predictor of performance despite this being a faster pace than the TT concerned. Further, threshold is improved by high intensity efforts. So many studies have shown that the majority of serious amateur endurance athletes train at too low an intensity on harder sessionsto get the most from their training largely due to sub-maximal efforts being at too high an intensity such that they do not allow sufficient recovery to maximise the benefits of the high intensity sessions.

Most erg plans mix in hard sessions that are of broadly 2 types: "Short intervals" at roughly 2k pace (ie transitional being mainly aerobic but with a significant anaerobic component)and "long intervals" at roughly 5k pace (being broadly maximal aerobic efforts). These are aimed at maximising 2k potential but have received approval for training for other distances as for most individuals there is limited differential between preparation required for anything from 2k to FM.

I can see the benefit of the long intervals in mental preparation for a 2k as they are around the 2k distance. They also practice pushing on for several minutes with building oxygen debt. My question is are they beneficial for Ultra-marathon training? Historically when training for longer events I have shifted my training to longer intervals as being more appropriate given that anaerobic performance (by which I mean operating at intensities where the anaerobic products from each stroke are more than can be cleared by the next one) is not a requirement. However On the above analysis I have been wondering whether this reasoning is correct. The alternative is that the long intervals don't stress the aerobic system at maximum as effectively as short intervals and that the other benefits are not relevant as maintaining performance at high intensity is not required and 2k phobia is not an issue.

Please would anyone who has got this far let me know their thoughts as I am loathe to eliminate such widely used sessions from my training, but would like to maximise the benefits from my training. In addition I will be increasing distance and sessions that challenge muscular endurance and so will be less fresh and so would benefit from doing fewer metres at high intensity.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Mike Channin]

Are you talking a rowing ultra, or running? How far? Single event or multi-day?
Are you aiming to just complete it, or do you have specific performance targets in mind?

From my point of view, if you're training for something long, you need to condition your body to generate as much as possible of the energy from body fat, rather than your limited carb reserves, so you need to do a lot of long slow distance to build your aerobic base.

I'm not sure that either set of intervals that you describe are much good as they are so different to what you're actually training for - to stay relaxed and efficient while grinding out serious distance. I wouldn't prioritise either. I'd be wary of anything that puts too much stress on the body, considering it will already be having to cope with lots of wear and tear from long distances.

I'm also not quite sure about the meaning of the last sentence in your first paragraph, as it seems to imply training too hard and too easy at the same time. When I started using HR directed training in 2004 and it completely revolutionised my training, it was about doing enough recovery between the hard sessions (more than I had been) and capping that recovery work using HR (which meant going easier than I had realised that I should). For me, this made a huge difference. Now, in terms of training for very long rows, most of your hard sessions should still be very long rows, just done at faster pace, and the recovery should be long rows done very gently to allow, y'know, recovery.

Intervals are useful for training at an intensity that you can't hold for long continuous pieces, but really the main thing is they are training you to recover between sets and then go again. And you just don't need that when doing an ultra, which is long continuous work. (Unless you are planning on an ultra split into intervals. You need to plan for breaks on something really long, to take on fluid (maybe even food) and maybe stretch, but its not really *intervals*. All that said, I have only really done as far as 50k, and I'm not sure that counts, so maybe check/confirm with someone who does the real long stuff.

Anyway, tell us the details of what you're aimed at, timescales, and how much you can train, as these are important to understanding how best to train...

[ArenT]

Increases in above or near FTP power output should in theory translate into fractionally better "rowing economy" at sub-maximal (i.e. endurance) power/effort zones. However, as Mike suggests, really, the most important adaptations are metabolic ones in terms of a) maximum preservation of liver glycogen (when that goes empty, it is the so-called "man with the hammer" in the cycling world, or "bonking") b) maximum utilisation of fat as fuel substrate, which obviously only makes a significant contribution at relatively lower aerobic/sub-threshold intensities.

However, in practice, there are two practical considerations from a training/recovery perspective:

1. Assuming you don't have infinite free time, there is probably a limit to the length of your training sessions during the week
2. Even if (1) could theoretically be "all day every day", in practice, it would be impossible to recover/tolerate this level of training stress. Probably something equivalent to around 200TSS/day would likely be the very maximum for any block of time, and that's assuming you had great recovery (sleep/nutrition/low stress etc.).

Given this, if e.g. you only have (say) 1-2 hours to train on a weekday, as would be the case for most people, it probably is worth having at least some of these nearer the harder end of the spectrum, alternated with easier low-aerobic days to recover. So I'd use these "shorter" (and I use shorter here purely in your context of "shorter than ultra event", since generally speaking a 1-2 hour training session is very far from "short"!) weekday sessions working in the upper aerobic/above-intended-ultra-pace, and then keep one day at the weekend for a true "long" training session. e.g. say a 4+ hour effort on Saturday, rest day Sunday.

The hard-ish above-ultra-pace 1-2 hours sessions should in theory yield improvements/raise your basic aerobic ceiling, which in turns means a greater contribution of fat conversion when producing ATP, which means more glycogen being spared, which means greater time to exhaustion for a given pace, which finally means (in theory) a faster overall ultra-effort (since you forestall the exhaustion point, at which your pace gradually slows to the rate which can be sustained almost entirely from low-aerobic fat production to get you over the finish line). The trick is just to ensure you can recover/tolerate the training load correctly, of course.

All of these efforts are going to be energy-system relevant for your event. I don't think any typical interval workout will do a great deal (unless you're really pressed for time on a particular day) in terms of sports-specific preparation for rowing 50k or 100k or 200k or whatever ultra distance it is you're tackling.

[Iain]

Are you talking a rowing ultra, or running? How far? Single event or multi-day?
Are you aiming to just complete it, or do you have specific performance targets in mind?

I hope Ian doesn't mind the announcement, but following exchange on "New Members" thread we are considering a go as the first lightweight tandem 1mM. Completing is the intention although it would be good to beat the current 40s Heavy of about 3 days 15hrs. So multi-day in intervals but one of us on at all times.

From my point of view, if you're training for something long, you need to condition your body to generate as much as possible of the energy from body fat, rather than your limited carb reserves, so you need to do a lot of long slow distance to build your aerobic base.

From 24hr tandem I think I can consume enough carbs to fuel it all! I have limited time so cannot do many really long ergs, so I am not so much looking to optimise training as make the most of the limited time available.

I'm not sure that either set of intervals that you describe are much good as they are so different to what you're actually training for - to stay relaxed and efficient while grinding out serious distance. I wouldn't prioritise either. I'd be wary of anything that puts too much stress on the body, considering it will already be having to cope with lots of wear and tear from long distances.

All the ultra info I can find stresses that it is important to maintain / improve threshold as this lowers the stress at the lower intensities and allows you to keep them going. Of course I am trying to put in some distance and aim for a 50km on my next free weekend (likely 3 weeks away).

I'm also not quite sure about the meaning of the last sentence in your first paragraph, as it seems to imply training too hard and too easy at the same time. When I started using HR directed training in 2004 and it completely revolutionised my training, it was about doing enough recovery between the hard sessions (more than I had been) and capping that recovery work using HR (which meant going easier than I had realised that I should). For me, this made a huge difference. Now, in terms of training for very long rows, most of your hard sessions should still be very long rows, just done at faster pace, and the recovery should be long rows done very gently to allow, y'know, recovery.

I have edited the sentence, I think we agree! The issue I face is having 2 enforced days off each week and only 2 days for long sessions, hence doing some grey sessions when under recovered but have a day off afterwards. These are my "UT1" days.

Intervals are useful for training at an intensity that you can't hold for long continuous pieces, but really the main thing is they are training you to recover between sets and then go again. And you just don't need that when doing an ultra, which is long continuous work. (Unless you are planning on an ultra split into intervals. You need to plan for breaks on something really long, to take on fluid (maybe even food) and maybe stretch, but its not really *intervals*. All that said, I have only really done as far as 50k, and I'm not sure that counts, so maybe check/confirm with someone who does the real long stuff.

The main event is in intervals! That said the biggest challenges are the effects of sleep deprivation and glutes hardening (sit bones moving above rigid glutes is like having a nice moving on them), fortunately the latter only lasts a few mins of each row. I anticipate accumulated muscular tiredness also being an issue, no idea how this will build up! Not been a real challenge on 24hr tandem or 111km, but 4 days is likely to be a bigger issue!

Many thanks for your thoughts. Most of my training for the 24hr tandem was at a little faster than FM pace. This meant keeping going 9S/500m seemed fairly easy. I don't think training as slow as the actual row makes much sense when the rows will usually be 24hrs apart or more and only for 2 hrs or less, but will do recovery sessions closer to your 75%.

Aren, many thanks, you can see from my response that we are thinking on similar lines. rowing is much harder to maintain for long periods than cycling due to the much higher peak forces required, so >30km for me would take several days to recover from even at proposed pace, so I will do some of these, but will probably keep to 1 per month so as not to compromise the rest of the training.

[Mike Channin]

Gulp - 1 million meters is massive, even in tandem.
I would advocate the following:
Do as much conditioning for as much distance as you can at actual planned pace - there is no real substitute for getting your body able to execute in a realistic way.
Use your two long days for that, and go as far as you can.
For your other sessions, do whatever feels right - if you're recovering well (because the long sessions are slow), then you can work harder. Otherwise I'd suggest doing some fixed power exercise so you can watch your HR response and judge how your training is progressing.

How are you planning to split the 'intervals'? (I'd still say that these are more like repeated row sessions with long breaks, rather than true intervals) How long will you have off?
I'm calculating an average pace of 2:36.6 for 1000k in 87 hours, which sounds gentle, but I can guess that it won't be once the distance starts to add up.
My slowest pace recovery rowing is at 2:30, so I can see that you might not get much from pounding out 2 hours at that pace. Maybe a 50k might make sense.
In that case, you may HAVE to pace faster on your long sessions...

You probably need to speak to Plummy, as he is the man with the hard experience there. Also Paul Gould if you can find him. If you've already done a 24Hr, you have way more experience than me - I may do repeated HMs, but that's nothing like what you're aiming for.

[Mike Channin]

Also, what is your current form like - especially on long distance pieces.
How long do you have to prepare?

[Mike Channin]

My predictor is giving me 2:20 pace for 50k as being in-line with the 2:36.6 pacing you need, but I doubt that it works well for that sort of distance, and anyway, you've got 43.5 hours of NOT rowing to factor in too. Might be an interesting target to aim for - being able to execute that without suffering too much.

Invest in lots of plasters and bubble-wrap too.

[Mike Channin]

Did I mention that you're at least slightly mad, by the way?

[Iain]

Thanks Mike, most people I know think that spending hours going backwards and forwards on a metal rail to drive a fan is NOT a sign of sanity, so why not prove them right

We are still agreeing our approach etc. still need to agree upon a DF and haven't set a date yet. But we will almost certainly need to do some longer runs to allow the other to sleep. So approx 2:30 pace normally with 24 hrs at about 3:00 pace was my initial thinking. It is not sensible in the few months of final prep to try and simulate what we will be going through. Ultimately it is just hoping that the grit that has got me through long rows in the past will still be there on day 4! That said hope to do a 50k during a time that I would normally be sleeping and follow up with 2hrs+ the following morning. My experience is that anything beyond 30k takes days to recover from, so only planning to do these once a month or so (also I am not prepared to devote too much time to it). I have found mummifying my hands with blister tape works, while nothing stops the pain of sit bones in solidified glutes, so was only intending to use my usual C2 seatpad.

One of the reasons for going a bit quicker is that the real challenge is the muscular tiredness. I will try and delay this a bit by rating up a little and so am getting used to rating 18/19 SPM with enough force that it tires my legs. later on may try to double up some sessions. But everything I read seems to confirm that faster work at threshold or above will make a big difference. One article was suggesting that "short" intervals was to raise VO2max while long intervals was to raise the proportion of VO2 max that can be maintained at moderate lactate levels (ie threshold). But I doubt that it is that simple. If I cut to one faster session a week, logic suggests that this should be the long intervals, but I struggle to fit these into a mid-week session and want the weekend for longer rows, so started this thread wondering if cutting the long intervals would have a worse result.

[Mike Channin]

Thanks Mike, most people I know think that spending hours going backwards and forwards on a metal rail to drive a fan is NOT a sign of sanity, so why not prove them right

Hours I can cope with. It's the days thing that scares me...

That said hope to do a 50k during a time that I would normally be sleeping and follow up with 2hrs+ the following morning. My experience is that anything beyond 30k takes days to recover from, so only planning to do these once a month or so (also I am not prepared to devote too much time to it). I have found mummifying my hands with blister tape works, while nothing stops the pain of sit bones in solidified glutes, so was only intending to use my usual C2 seatpad.

Here I do have some relevant experience.
If you do a LOT of distance, you can get to the point where even FM/50k can be done without doing too much damage, especially if done at relatively light intensity, and you can recover very quickly and repeat fairly frequently without too much impact.
If you are quite well conditioned overall, you can even do these longer sessions at a fairly quick pace (although you will NOT be doing this in your actual ultra), but this will increase impact and recovery time.

If you do a fairly extreme level of conditioning (e.g. 7 x 50k over seven days), it will take some time to recover, but the positive training effect can last a lot longer, possibly several months or more. (I think it raises your aerobic base significantly, and this will be retained (and can be built on) as long as you keep up a certain level of training.

If you do a less extreme but longer conditioning (e.g. 60 x HM over 2 months), you will also get long term benefits. These tend to be efficiency improvements at the rate/pace you train at frequently, but will not necessarily translate to gains at higher intensity (which you become less conditioned for, as you're neglecting it!). These efficiency gains at low intensity you can even check on by doing efficiency checks using standardised pieces. In the case of this level/kind of training, provided you are careful with over-training and injuries, you don't even need recovery.

Taping up hands (and any other pressure points!) is invaluable. Seat pads are invaluable. Gear that doesn't chafe is worth its weight in gold.
I know what you mean about seat discomfort ending up the limiting factor on longer stuff, and I don't really have an answer, other than padding seat, stretching, and its all about the pace...

[Ian Bee]

Quick reply to chime in as I've been away - certainly no issue with having this discussed and very much appreciate advice and criticism of approach.

Just lately I've been holding to sessions based around improving marathon times in my morning training (generally 20-22k) with bits of cardio and weights in the evening. Net result is a slightly average improvement in training pace average which suits this endeavour in a very general sense.

Not completed a FM/50k in a while so my weekend training needs to plug this gap.

I'll need to look at easily digested food for this - 100k type gels, protein shakes, ultra running gums are probably a base to keep fueled so I need to practice what volume will keep me going.....

[ArenT]

I must say I'm enjoying reading the content of this thread, some of the suggested training regimes make most other training plans sound like nursery school activities by comparison .

If you do a fairly extreme level of conditioning (e.g. 7 x 50k over seven days), it will take some time to recover, but the positive training effect can last a lot longer, possibly several months or more.

I can certainly believe that. 7x50k over a week on an erg is just "beast mode" stuff, incredibly taxing.

I've never done anything like that volume on an erg (I have rowed a full marathon once). I have however done something somewhat equivalent on a bike.

I used to work ~8 hours a day in a supermarket in the fresh meat department, so basically spent nearly my whole day trollying trays of meat, picking up trays of meat, basically non-stop low-intensity physical graft. In addition, I cycled to/from work, which was about 45km a day total. I was training for an ultra-cycling event, so about one month out, that meant I'd basically do long rides pretty much both weekend days, plus a couple of further indoor training sessions (at higher intensity) immediately after arriving home through the door on my bike. Anyway, one week around this time featured something like my 5 full workdays, so about 5 x 45km, plus a couple of hours turbo sessions in addition. Then at the weekend I think I rode something like a 160km ride on the Saturday (century), followed by a 300km mega-ride on the Sunday. I got home/finished the ride at like 9PM or something. I was then back to work and cycling into work on the Monday...

Anyway, though it isn't healthy/sustainable to keep that volume going for extended periods of time, it certainly can give you a "super diesel engine".

The best thing about it (though perhaps less so in terms of your food bill), is you can pretty much eat whatever you like. I'm not joking when I say that even as a lightweight 65kg man at the time, I was regularly consuming about 4,000+ calories, and on those days with long rides, more like 6,000 calories on the days around it.

I'll need to look at easily digested food for this - 100k type gels, protein shakes, ultra running gums are probably a base to keep fueled

As regards eating, on the rower I think that is a real issue. Maybe it is just me, but I find the rowing machine particularly hard as an activity regarding anything digestive, due to the fact that at each catch you are basically compressing all of your digestive organs, which can be quite uncomfortable if you have anything gas/food related going on.

I'd be inclined to eat/consume something like Huel or equivalent, basically complete liquid food that is a nice mix of slow-burning carbs, a reasonable chunk of protein, and some good fats. Get someone to make it in a blender with some frozen fruit like strawberries or similar. Energy gels etc. are more applicable when you're going at intensities where you're just hammering your glycogen system with near threshold efforts thrown in. For a multi-day erg torture test, it's all about slow and steady, and that means in terms of the energy input too. Sipping 250ml/one scoop per hour would be about 200kcal. Take that with 400ml of water or dilute juice per hour, should be good. Top up with occasional energy gels when feeling very depleted, and some enjoyable solid food (flapjack or something) right at beginning of 2 hour+ sleep break or something. That's what I'd probably do. But I haven't done a multi-day erg event, so I don't know. I've done 25 hours solid on a bike, and for that I basically just ate anything and everything, eating a lot of calories pretty much every 1-2 hours, but in hindsight I think something like the Huel option would have been superior and a lot easier to digest overall.

I suppose by about day 2 or something in, it becomes more psychological than anything, so having anything available to eat that you actually WANT to eat, even if it is "wrong", will be the right thing, even if you have to somewhat suffer through with some slow segments on the rower.

[Iain]

Thanks for the insight Aren. Ian, now you are back I think we need a call to cover the basics. I prepared for 19 months for the 24hrs. This will be only 2 years after restarting after an extended break and only 10 months after several months off, so not in as good a shape and training 5 rather than 6 days a week. Re food I couldn't face any of the solid treats I had assembled for the 24hr tandem and relied largely on squash and sugar solution, but assume that I will have to eat in 4 days. I remember reading that Plummy wanted boiled eggs on his million, I cannot imagine getting one down! May try some pasta and bananas. One thing I would say is that when 18 months after the 24hr I did the 111,111m, I had bad digestive issues when drinking the same mixture I had used on the 24hr. So your system needs to be recently used to it (although the 15 min breaks may have helped), so longer runs will include the liquid and I may even try some slow rows after pasta. Protein takes a lot of digesting (stomach acid etc.) so will keep to some bars if I can face them. Really worried about starting again after an attempt at grabbing some sleep. I think the drop in adrenalin will make overcoming the PITA tough. Also torn between delaying sleeps until necessary and scheduling them when I believe that I will still be able to do long rows. Re eating, during the build up to the 24hrs I really struggled to eat >4,000 cal that I was using and at one point started losing strength. I supplemented with Maltodextrin shakes with protein to aid absorbtion. Not great health wise but does top up the calories!

Basically you can't prepare for one of these, it is largely down to how you can subordinate the discomfort to mental control and stay in the moment and don't let the distance remaining prey on your mind. That said, increased fitness and having gone through tough sessions do make it easier in the real thing!