over training or what's the issue?

[nervtoeter]

Hi Free Spirits,
most of are knowing that I started rowing 7 months ago and I made huge improvements.
The last weeks I recognized a tiredness, also my HR is at the moment 5 to 10 beats higher than 2 months ago.

I don't understand what is going on, I reduced training, I increased training, always when I'm going for speed I feel afterwards fatigue for a couple of days. I took some days off, still the same.
I love rowing and I'm doing regularly sessions with 2:10 to 2:20min at least 5 sessions a week, I don't think that's too much. I'm going once a week for a TT sometimes twice. But for the last four weeks I feel always fatigue, and I don't understand why. It's only by rowing, over the day at work no issue, so I'm quite sure I'm not ill.

Had someone similar experience, some advice?

In parallel I started a little bit cycling to enjoy the nice weather and the fresh air, but nothing changed, also with cycling I feel a similar tiredness.

Nevertheless I getting my new Cross bike tomorrow
http://www.cube.eu/uk/bikes/tour/cross/cross-pro/

Cheers
Markus

[Grobi]

Hi Markus,

to me that looks like over-training. Listen to your body and give it more rest! If I understand it correctly you are rowing six to seven days per week (five long steady rows, one ore two time trials). In my opinion that's too much! Have at least two rest days per week, maybe even three (like Monday, Wednesday, Friday for example). If you feel fine again after let's say two or three weeks you might start switching back to two rest days.

Enjoy the cross bike! My mountain bike is a Cube as well:
http://www.bike-magazin.de/uploads/tx_s ... c27881.jpg

[plummy]

I agree with Peter. Two time trials a week is pushing your body very hard and add to that the volume of other training it sounds it could very well be over-training.
I think the long term fatigue is something that creeps up over time and it's not easy to spot early and a bit of a vicious circle (your times worsen, so you train harder to compensate, which creates more fatigue, slows you more, your get more frustrated so push harder again etc etc).
I'm regularly finding myself in your position (I'm there right now) and for the first time in ages, elected not to row on a normal training day (Tuesday) as I felt I hadn't recovered from my HM at the weekend followed by a bailed 10km SB attempt - which should have been a clue.
(After the extra day's rest I managed my 10k SB last night)
I normally rest Monday/Wednesday/Friday and train the other days. As I have a very sedentary job (mostly at a desk) I think I should push hard every time to make up for it but I have to remember I'm 51 and 71kg so there's only so much punishment it can take and rest and recovery is absolutely essential to continued progress.

Are you doing any heartrate based training? - e.g. lots of long slow rows based on 70% of max heartrate

[Paul Victory]

I agree with Peter and Dave. I think I'm in a similar situation to you and Dave and I know I need to back off, but find it hard to do so. Maybe the three of us need to make a pact to take things a bit easier for a while.

[nervtoeter]

Yes I do 3 to 4 HR trainings a week. Usually I do the 70% training, sometimes only 60% for fat burning.

I will follow your advice and reducing my training.

[Rob C]

After a lot of effort from February though till end of April, in an attempt to get from almost nowhere to a million meters in the season, I knew I was tired, especially with challenges like that in March which targeted (in my case) 10k a day. I somehow pushed though in May for the marathon challenges, but didn't do much else. I was glad of a week's holiday mid May which gave my body some chance to recouperate and now concentrating a little more on fewer but better rows in June has seen further improved results. There are times when less is more.

[nervtoeter]

I reduced as discussed my training and could go the 10k quite easily today.
I will still stay off the erg, and not start to early with too much training again.
Still going for 3 to 4 days a week.

But it was a great feeling today to be back under normal "conditions"

[Paul Victory]

Glad to hear that the reduction in erging is helping. We all need to allow things to ebb and flow from time to time. I'm still finding it hard to ease back, but my trip to Alvor next week and the very hot weather over there will force me to ease back a bit, whether I want to or not.

[Jon]

Some good advice there from the team for you Marcus! You can depend on FS

Sometimes low grade viral infections can cause fatigue, and there can be post viral fatigue also which takes well judged reduction in training to get over. Also the effect of other life stressors can significantly contribute to over training. Monitoring resting heart rate variations (taken at 2mins after waking) is a useful guide. Significant drift usually appears before you feel the effects of fatigue. There is some software called Kubios and some people use this to measure resting heart rate variance which is even more accurate.

How I wish I had a good coach - looked at Fletcher, just can't afford it

[CamiCrew]

Good thoughts, Jon. I do have a coach -- he sees a lot of chronic fatigue from overtraining, both in adults and juniors.

He tests a lot of training technology, including checking out this phone/app tool. The team version is like $15,000US, but the personal version is $100. https://omegawave.com/personal. Just something to look at and know it exists, there are other similar tools.

I haven't tried it, myself... I would have liked to see what it told me in Jan when I overtrained very noticeably. I had bike and erg challenges going at the same time, 150k on the erg alone, plus on-the-water rowing and sand volleyball. I felt terrible... even the idea of getting on the bike again to finish the challenge made me say bad words, loudly!

Anyway -- if you're posting about it, it means you're paying close attention to your energy levels, and adjusting accordingly. That's good.

[Jon]

Thanks Barbara, the phone app sounds interesting, their website doesn't explain how it arrives at its conclusions. I have found some phone apps very useful, like ones for monitoring sleep, but they still require knowledge for interpretation. Having been through an experience of overtraining yourself, I'm sure you'll have learnt much from the experience.

I very briefly overtrained towards the end of December, by increasing distance too quickly, but recognized the fatigue pretty quickly. I tend to be quite erratic in training, not sustaining good training for too long (life getting in the way) so rarely have overtrained and I've always been a very strong proponent of rest! States of fitness are so fluid that what may be overtraining one month, may be under training the next... The other, but probably less common problem is not pushing hard enough at the right times, though I believe in the recovery rows ... Just need to modulate intensities better to allow harder efforts in between. The thing about the data you get from the erg, is that performance is so easily measured for comparison, not easy for beginners perhaps but once enough sessions under the belt the information from previous training cycles is invaluable.

[plummy]

I've never used any apps or software for monitoring the possibility of over-training which I admit is probably detrimental overall. Over the years I've tended to judge it by "feel" and just keep going full tilt on each session until I hit the buffers and find I'm on a downward spiral of annoyance and frustration through a series of disappointing results. Then, I have a couple of slower rows or an extra day off and assume all is well again.

I'm going through a rough patch where I can't appear to hold anything sub 2:00 for more than 5~6km and (10k just beats me up at that pace) and I am wondering if the million done in Feb can still be having a deep effect on fatigue and performance levels.
I'm not sure how much research there is out there on recovery for old dodderers taking on ultra-marathons but it may be interesting to look some up.

The one thing that has happened over the years and certainly this last year training for the Ultra is my tolerance and actual enjoyment of low rate stuff. To be honest, anything ABOVE 26 spm feels like a race and 22~24 quite normal. Even 20 isn't anything like the effort it used to be (although I'm not saying I have any real pace at these a SPM's)

This weekend I did 10k on Rowpro and nailed 22spm throughout at 2:05 pace and it was fine and yesterday 12,500 at 24spm at 2:04 and although both sweaty sessions, neither were terrible in any way, shape or form -and yet 10k at <2:00 at free rate kills me.

[Den-J]

3 years ago my son suggested doing the coast to coast ride on our mountain bikes (135 mi!es with about 14000 ft of climbing @ up to 20% gradients) most people who do this split it into 2 or3 days but I said ok we do it in one day so we did a hand full of 50 mile rides and just went for it ..managed it in 11 hours
My hr was constantly between 130 and 170 for the entire 11 hours ( my Max is 175 ) and I felt tired and unable to train as hard as usual for at least the next 6 months and did not get back to fully fit for a year
I know I did not prepair as well as you did for your million Meter row m8 but you did a much harder thing than I did so it may well take quite some time for you to fully recover
..I did beat my son by 15min though so it was worth it ....what...me..competitive?

[gregsmith01748]

Hi, there is a good, not very expensive way to monitor for overtraining. The ithlete app on the iPhone plus the polar h7 chest strap. The app measures HRV using a quick measurement first thing in the morning and maintains log for you. I used it when I really increased my volume last winter and it helped me see when I was flirting with overtraining.

As a plus the h7 also works with the pm3 and my other fitness app on the iPhone.

[nervtoeter]

Hi, currently I row only twice a week, recognised that I lost a liittle bit of speed and power. I do a lot of cycling, enjoying outdoor sport. Have also to be careful about over training
Back on the erg in winter. But I'm looking regularly in the forum.

[Paul Victory]

Hi, currently I row only twice a week, recognised that I lost a liittle bit of speed and power. I do a lot of cycling, enjoying outdoor sport. Have also to be careful about over training
Back on the erg in winter. But I'm looking regularly in the forum.

Glad to hear you're keeping fit Markus. they say a change is as good as a rest, but I hope you're not overdoing the cycling.

If you maintain your aerobic fitness level and don't put on any weight, it won't take long to get back to where you were once you start erging more regularly again.

Enjoy the good weather outdoors while you can.

[Recess]

Holy resurrected thread Batman!

So after the pit of despair I hit earlier this week, and some of the interesting posts Boris has put in regarding tracking how his body state is - I read through this thread again with interest. And, as I have the H7 strap, I've bought the ithelete app and will see if that helps keep track of how hard I'm pushing myself.

Taking a rest day today anyway (first one in about 16 days I think, I've either been erging, lifting weights, or both every day) and may even succumb to a glass of wine with dinner tonight - take it as a mental health day instead of physical health.

John

[Paul Victory]

That sounds like a good plan John. You've built a really good base and the main things to avoid over the next 9 days are overtraining and psyching yourself out.

Paul V

[plummy]

Even Olympic athletes take a day a week off to recover - enjoy your day off and I'll bet you feel soooo much better tomorrow for it

[nervtoeter]

I'm training for MTB Marathon and Alp cross, therfore I read some books and changed my training to avoid over training. I do 3 intensive training weeks and then one week rest. In the rest week I do only 3 to 4 low pulse (max 120 BPM) training. For me this works very well. And also if I feel tired as today I take a day off or do maximum a low pulse training. Next week is a rest week and I can feel that I'm happy about it

[dr3do]

How are you doing, John? I hope you feel better. [-o<

[Recess]

Nice of you to ask Boris. I'm ok - had to take a day off today due to work commitments - probably a good think when I think about it. It means my tapering has become a stop - but I'll do a hard session tomorrow, easy one on Thursday, take Friday off, easy Saturday - then go for it on Sunday.

Schedule hasn't been released yet, but the entry names have been. There's a good few folks racing the 2000m Lwt 30-39 - so it's gonna be fun!

John

[Paul Victory]

Hi John

The schedule has been published. http://indoorchamps.britishrowing.org/s ... duleV4.pdf

I'm on at 9 a.m. (Yikes! ) and you're on at 10:20 a.m.

Paul V

[Recess]

09:00 is a bit tough! I'll be there early anyway, so I'll be sure to yell some support your way. Looks like it's going to be busy!

John

[dr3do]

I'm ok - had to take a day off today due to work commitments - probably a good think when I think about it.

Great!