Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Mat »

Thanks ~ Fred, and a huge thank you for maintaining these records month in and month out ^O^ :fsbgrin: :fsbgrin:

It's sometimes hard to comprehend that in January of 2022, I was less than six weeks post hip replacement.
I've been lucky to have benefited from quick healing, and effective rehabilitation, and it's been great to see the erging fitness gradually return through the year. Ironically, I'm getting a bit of grief from the hip this week, but confident that I'll be taking a shot at that "Double December" before too long

Thanks again Fred :D
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Fred, thanks again for doing this each month.

Well done Mat!

In terms of the future calculations, I have to confess I don;t know how the calculation actually works so it's hard to have a ponder on what needs to be tinkered with to make sure things still work in 2023 with The Diamonds having so many boats. Is this written down somewhere?

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by fkoene »

Great recovery indeed, Mat. I hope your hip won't start to cause problems again.

Jon, the calculations go as follows: you get 201 points minus your boat's ranking. Suppose FS 1 ends on the 10th position every member of that boat earns 191 points. When you complete the C2C in a boat which isn't afloat you still get 100 points. So any full boat finishing lower then #101 would lead to less then 100 points, thus 100 points for non-floaters wouldn't be fair.
With the Feb 14 challenge by the way you only get half the amount of points: 101 minus your ranking and 50 when you end up in a incomplete boat.

I think it's written down somewhere as well, but can't quite remember where.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Maybe a way to go would be to make the algorithm more dynamic. A boat that is afloat gets a score which is (total number of boats this month - position). All boats which are not afloat get 75% of the score of the lowest scoring Free Spirits Boat. So in a month where there were 300 boats: finishing in a boat that was 10th would give 290 points; finishing 100th in our lowest, afloat boat would give 200 points; being in a boat that was not afloat would give 200x0.75= 150 points.

...or some variation on that anyway. This way we are isolated from changing numbers of boats, but it does mean that the high scorers are at the mercy of the size of the field, but I don't think that will vary a lot from month to month.

By the way, the original rules are actually in the first ever post of this thread. In that version, boats that did not float were given 0 points.

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by fkoene »

As far as I'm concerned I'll give this a try, Jon. See how this will work for a couple of months.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

JonT wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:47 pm Maybe a way to go would be to make the algorithm more dynamic. A boat that is afloat gets a score which is (total number of boats this month - position). All boats which are not afloat get 75% of the score of the lowest scoring Free Spirits Boat. So in a month where there were 300 boats: finishing in a boat that was 10th would give 290 points; finishing 100th in our lowest, afloat boat would give 200 points; being in a boat that was not afloat would give 200x0.75= 150 points.

...or some variation on that anyway. This way we are isolated from a changing numbers of boats, but it does mean that the high scorers are at the mercy of the size of the field, but I don't think that will vary a lot from month to month.
Actually, and I know this is making things even more complicated #-o, but this approach is a little harsh on the higher ranked non-floating boats. For example a non-floating boat that is just one place behind our lowest ranked floating boat, would get the same points as our lowest boat overall. In the spirit of rewarding participation, this feels wrong. A tweak would be to score non-floating boats as the higher of: the score they would have got is they were afloat (i.e. total number of boats - position) or 75% of the score of our lowest floating boat).

This would mean that if our lowest floating boat was as described in my post:

Finishing 10th and afloat would give 300-10=290 points.
Finishing in our lowest afloat boat at 100th would give 300-100=200 points
Finishing 110th in a non-floating boat would give the highest of 300-110 points (190) or 75% of 200 points (150) and so would give 190 points.
Finishing 200th in a non floating boat would give the highest of 300-200 points (100) or 75% of 200 points (150) and so would give 150 points.

If I had the time I would write the code to automatically do this by extracting the data from the c2ctc pages, but I am a bit stretched at the moment.

If this is all too complex then just ignore me. 75% may not be the right percentage, it was plucked out of the air.

EDIT - I have thrown together a very rough and ready tool to show what the scores would look like. I haven't tested it very well, but it gives a rough idea -> http://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2ctc_analysis.php

EDIT 2 - You can now also see past events and how they would score. Here is last months -> https://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2c ... p?c_id=220

The more technically minded of you can do this with any event by pasting the url of the event from your browser into the text of the link above. i.e. replace "url=http://www.c2ctc.com/index.php?c_id=220" with any link to previous events.

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

I have thrown together a very rough and ready tool to show what the scores would look like. I haven't tested it very well, but it gives a rough idea -> http://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2ctc_analysis.php

You can now also see past events and how they would score. Here is last months -> https://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2c ... p?c_id=220

The more technically minded of you can do this with any event by pasting the url of the event from your browser into the text of the link above. i.e. replace "url=http://www.c2ctc.com/index.php?c_id=220" with any link to previous events.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by fkoene »

It looks like very good work again, Jon. When I have time I'll dive into it a bit more thoroughly.

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Thanks Fred. Looking at the results this month, I think my 75% may be a bit generous. Maybe 50% would be better. You can test different rates and their impact within the url. For example for 50% just add “?discount=0.5” at the end of the address and will run the calculations using that as a factor. See the link below:

http://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2c ... scount=0.5
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Ian Bee »

Jon, looks great and I'm grateful for the effort of setting the page up 👍👍👍

I have a query: should non floating boats be scored based on their position or are we effectively looking for a base level score for supporting the team in a CTC (I think it's currently the latter in your link?).
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Ian, it is both. There are a few ideas above which have evolved as I have thought about it.

The approach implemented here is that a boat that is not afloat gets the highest of: the score like all the other boats (number of boats - position of boat) or 75% of the score of the lowest afloat boat. That way boats that have done well get a fitting score, while lower boats are not given a very low score.

Hopefully that explains it. Easy to change if we want to tweak it.

Jon


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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Using the method I proposed where a floating boat gets a score of (total number of boats - position) and non-floating boats get the largest of (total number of boats - positions) or 75% of the score of our lowest floating boat, the results for last month look like this:

https://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2c ... p?c_id=221

If we apply 50% instead of 75% then the results look like this:

https://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2c ... scount=0.5

Does anyone have a view on which is better, and whether this approach looks like it might work :?:

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Grobi »

Thank you for the work you‘ve put into this Jon! I personally prefer the 50% method as it provides a bigger incentive to aim for a better score.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Grobi wrote:Thank you for the work you‘ve put into this Jon! I personally prefer the 50% method as it provides a bigger incentive to aim for a better score.
I agree. This tool doesn’t replace your spreadsheet, but hopefully helps with working out the scores.


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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Ian Bee »

Another vote for 50% - thanks Jon 👍
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by fkoene »

JonT wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:44 pm Using the method I proposed where a floating boat gets a score of (total number of boats - position) and non-floating boats get the largest of (total number of boats - positions) or 75% of the score of our lowest floating boat, the results for last month look like this:

https://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2c ... p?c_id=221

If we apply 50% instead of 75% then the results look like this:

https://freespiritsrowing.com/c2ctc/c2c ... scount=0.5

Does anyone have a view on which is better, and whether this approach looks like it might work :?:

Jon
With the help of Jon's link I have entered January's results in the spreadsheet. Considering the votes for 50% I've used that score. I think this will work great, also for the upcoming Feb 14 challenge. Of course points are lower then previous years but I don't think it will be a major problem to get used to that.
Thanks again, Jon for all the effort you put into this ^O^ :fswink:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

PS somewhat off topic of course, a bit reluctant to share it here, but it can diminish my drive for rowing or entering scores a little perhaps. Last year my prostate was removed, and a few weeks ago I got the news that the cancer hasn't completely been removed. Still very little, very low values, not treatable yet, but something inside me isn't behaving the way it should, and, as I said, that might affect my rowing a little. But of course I want to stay in shape so I won't be completely gone for sure.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Grobi »

Fred, all the best for your health! That is far more important than rowing or spreadsheets!
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Take good care Fred. Here’s hoping it can be kept at bay and you will fully recover.

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Tako »

Beterschap Fred!
Health is so important.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by JonT »

Ian Bee wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:32 am Another vote for 50% - thanks Jon 👍
I have changed the tool to use 50% by default.

I'll try to sort out a way to view the scores for each of the events from the year to date if I get some time. I'm not very good at building fancy interfaces with menus etc #-o
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by fkoene »

Thanks guys

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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Ian Bee »

Grobi wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:36 pm Fred, all the best for your health! That is far more important than rowing or spreadsheets!
This and the other comments are so true. Take care.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by Mat »

Just read the recent posts and so sorry to hear your news Fred. Wishing you all the very best
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by plummy »

Sorry to hear that news Fred. I hope that all gets sorted out for you and you are back to full strength asap.
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Re: Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Post by fkoene »

Thanks, very much appreciated.

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