WELCOME to New Members

[bierik]

I created a new account for Free Spirits and was able to transfer the result to this new account (setting the result for the old one to 24 hours). I might give the challenge another try anyway.

[JonT]

Welcome aboard Kay.

[stumpy]

Welcome guys,good to have you join us.

[FXST01]

Hello All,

New guy from Perth Australia.

regards


Eddie

[JonT]

Welcome aboard Eddie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JonT]

Hello All,

New guy from Perth Australia.

Eddie

Eddie,

I know you have been exploring the site. Things to consider - all completely optional - are joining the Nonathlon and letting me know your userid so I can set you up on our fancy tool. Joining a boat in the Cross Team challenge, and of course joining in any C2 challenges as a Free Spirit.

Welcome again,

Jon

[Iain]

Great to have you in the team Eddie.

[JtheDad]

Hey guys I’m new to the forum. I row a lot because it makes me feel good. I’m finally up around 100km/week now (longtime goal), hopefully I can get myself on the meter board, I think I got it started.

I’ve got new goals now, hoping you guys would like to come along with me!

J the Dad

[plummy]

Hello J the Dad - welcome aboard. Yikes, 100km a week - the chaps who've been hogging the top of the meterboard are going to have to sharpen up their games!

Great to have you with us.

Plummy

[Iain]

J, great to hear from you. Do you want to share a bit more about yourself in addition to being a meters junkie? Don't expect to challenge you on the Metreboard as I only row 4 days a week these days. But you might want to get involved in nonathl9on / rowlympics &/or CTC?

- Iain

[JtheDad]

J, great to hear from you. Do you want to share a bit more about yourself in addition to being a meters junkie? Don't expect to challenge you on the Metreboard as I only row 4 days a week these days. But you might want to get involved in nonathl9on / rowlympics &/or CTC?

- Iain

I’m a full-time dad to 3 little girls. My wife is in her last year of training as a surgeon so I row to keep my sanity!

I am a bit of a meters junkie, tennis too. I like to watch tennis while I row and I like to row fast. Right now I’m doing 80 mins 5x/ week at about 2:06-2:10, plus one sprint day. My goal is to get that down to 2:00 so I’m here looking for ways to do that.

What else? We currently live near Grand Rapids, MI but we’ll be moving to the NE part of the state next summer. I like cars and I’m pretty handy, I’ve even rebuilt a few engines. But most of my life right now is centered on my kids.

[Iain]

I'm at the other end of the rearing process. Eldest buying her first house and youngest due to go to Uni in September assuming they get the grades required, so finally emerging from "Dad" being my main pastime!

That is pretty fast, much faster than I have ever been. Once on the rower I tend to go long, but rarely doing 5 days a week. My serious training is on PetePlan thread in Treading, although I post sundry and SS sessions on the "What Training" thread here. I find in encourages me onto the metal mistress and reduces the CBA days. I like to mix it up, but usually add 7k+ in extended cooldown.

Re your proposed increase in pace, that is a huge jump from 159-175W to 203W. When I was doing similar SS sessions (15+ years ago), I never quite managed a 40min 10k let alone twice as long and as my standard SS row! Tat said, those paces were definitely UT1 for me and I am a lightweight who never did much exercise growing up, a few weights in late teens and rowed at low level in College, only trained seriously from 38 and "Daddying" (although also "Dog Daddying") lead to a 6 year gap.

Never mastered the art of doing anything else while rowing, but sad enough that trying to keep my pace constant and stroke strong and consistent keeps me adequately occupied.

Look forward to seeing your progress.

IAin

[andy]

Hi. Did 6 months C2 rowing a couple of years back. After a couple of years of storage whilst I have been cycling the erg was dusted off in June, and I'm currently engaged in training to beat my last 2k best of 7.37 which is probably a couple of months away just yet.

[Iain]

Welcome Andy, good to see someone with such a positive objective. I am somewhat slower than you at the moment, training to again go Sub 25’ for 6k. Look forward to watching your progress. Might I suggest that FS’s CTC choice of 3 6’ rows with 2’ rest between would be good training for this?

[stumpy]

A warm welcome Andy, good luck on the 2k matey, I don’t think I will ever get any near that time again but I would still like to go sub 8:00, how hard can our targets be, time will tell.

[James111]

Hallo,

My name is James, and I'm a student. In my free time, I train on the rowing ergometer, getting ready for competitions that will take place in the next academic year. There’s a lot of hard work ahead, but I’m full of energy and ready for the challenges.

James

[plummy]

Hello James,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for choosing Free Spirits to put your rowing energies into. Looking forward to seeing your name here and on the challenge boards.

Plummy

[ArenT]

Hello all

Just a quick post for now to say "hello". It's good to see that this board/community seems to have recent activity, one of the issues with the internet today versus, say, the pre-Facebook 00s era (and especially so the last few years), is that the sheer proliferation of platforms, social media apps, Discord, etc., actually means that lots of places are very... quiet. And although I have a Facebook account (more by necessity than anything else), I really am not particularly a fan of it, and probably login about 1-2 a year.

The short TL;DR; introduction for me is:

1. Circa 2012/2014, was a Personal Trainer, increasingly became a fan of the RowErg. A female client I trained who was a semi-elite/semi-professional rower was by far one of the fittest individuals I've ever met. She was stronger than about 70% of the men I've ever trained, and stronger than 100% of the women. In terms of general CV fitness/strength endurance, was pretty much fitter than anyone I trained, and fitter than probably about 99.99% of the members at the gym I worked (across nearly/most "metrics"), which probably had somewhere in the region of ~5000+ members, and I guess half that number of regular gym members. Yes, this was just a general public gym, it nevertheless was impressive. I got her to share her training program with me (or a typical week), and then I saw why Anyway, without much specific training as a lightweight male (or definitely well sub-75kg when I'm in shape!), my best effort was about a 7:18 2K. At the time I tended to train very heavily with kettlebells (so was heavier/stronger than I am presently).
2. Next few years, ended up with a routine retail job (income stability...), but ended up with a big cycle commute, and that led to years of being an extremely serious recreational cyclist. Did a few road races, but got sick of crashes/huge expense (e.g. when some other rider decides to try overtaking on a blind bend on roads that are not fully closed, cue the inevitable last-minute dive in/touch of wheels, etc.), plus the logistics of travel/paucity of races meant it was not very feasible anyway. Also enjoyed some hill climbs/TTs. Best effort here was probably around ~310W FTP at about 64kg. Was part of a group with 5 others riders where we completed a 600km+ ride to Newcastle-upon-Tyne to the Isle of Skye in 25 hours (i.e. we all rode non-stop, had support cars carrying out food/drink etc.) as a charity ride.
3. More recent years, various adventures abroad, then switched career as a full-time software developer working from home. This meant my income improved but also that instead of doing a daily 50km round-trip cycle commute plus ~10 hours on my feet with ~20,000+ steps, I now spend 8-10 hours sat in front of a computer. Anyway, bought the RowErg, because I love(/hate) it so much, and added the SkiErg after that. Also have a Wattbike, but thinking of changing that for a BikeErg now. Anyway, although I have used them quite a bit over the last few years, the answer is "not enough", so time for more focus. I'm about 5-6kg heavier than I should be.

I'm a general fitness person who's "jack of all trades/master of none", so like to run, row, SkiErg, cycle on my tubo, swing kettlebells, do some weight training.

So that brings me here, as now that various life-stresses/issues around work/money have now resolved themselves and I've got a proper stable routine, I've setup a training plan to try to get back into serious shape again. I've moved away from outdoor cycling, because, much as I love it, it has several issues:

1. Insane/crazy drivers (I know so many riders who have had terrible injuries due to either careless or just plain vindictive drivers).
2. Endless hours/far too much faffing cleaning/maintaining/preparing your bike etc.
3. Huge amounts of cycling gives you a rather unbalanced physique due to it being so lower-body dominant

So for outdoor/fresh air, I prefer to go running, woods on my doorstep, literally takes two minutes to get ready throwing on your kit and done.

But have decided to resume where I was around 2013/2014 with a real focus back on lots more rowing for the next couple of years and see where I get to.

Near-ish term (i.e within 12 months) goals are:

1. Get a sub-7 2K. This means I need to go from about 266W-ish to about 305W-ish, so about 40W. Although that is quite a lot, I'm not sure my previous attempt truly was an all out effort, so I think even if I got back to my "previous level", a best effort there would probably be more like 270-275". So I maybe need to add about 30W of new capacity beyond my previous best. In terms of where I am now, I'm probably more around the 245W as I'm getting back into shape after a bad first 1/2 year (too much food, hours work, not enough training, etc.). I'm currently training with my rowing FTP set at about 195W or so.
2. Get back to the sort of volumes I had not-so-long ago (I did more than 1 million metres in the 2021 season on the logbook).
3. Build some new online friends/training connections/motivation.
4. Get stuck into the CTC.

There was/is obviously a great in-person cycling community in the general area where I am, but I'd like to replicate/replace at least some of that in a online virtual rowing fashion. The outdoor cycling also takes up too much time, e.g. the 6-8 hour all-day long rides at a weekend...

I've been experimenting with the state of rowing apps/software in 2024 and have reached some useful conclusions (for another post).

I also saw that there is this "Crazy Bear Challenge", is this running this year? 30 HM in 45 days seems extremely tough but do-able, and a great way to [re-]build capacity. Work capacity (across any type of aerobic exercise) used to be one of my biggest strengths, so I'd like to get that back. It's great for health and also great for your waistline (since you end up burning so many calories in sheer expenditure...). So time to pack in some efficient training volume, and get up to about say ~10 hours / week with zero faffing (since all I need to do is walk downstairs, put on some training kit, sit on the rower, done...).

Anyway, hello all!

/ Aren

[plummy]

Well hello Aren - welcome on board and thank you for choosing Free Spirits. I must admit, I needed a lie down after reading about YOUR efforts in the training/cycling/rowing arenas - awesome workload you've gone through there.

I may have missed it but did you mention how old you are? I see that in top shape you are a LWT so 7:18.x and that is a very respectable time but where it lies in comparison does somewhat depend on which age group. You also didn't mention your spm or damper setting - which can be key to quick improvements. Throw into that mix, a proper in person race against others could probably lop off 6~10 seconds as well.

I look forward to seeing your name on the CTC and the meterboard and here on the forum as much as you like.

Re the Crazy Bear, the originator (Stuart Thorp) has stepped back from rowing and I used to help him with the spreadsheet tables for it and haven't done anything for at least a couple of years. I think ownership was passed on to another team - but cannot confirm either way if it still runs.

P.S. Jon T's eyes might have lit up when he saw you are a software developer - he ploughs a lonely furrow looking after all things forum/tables/tech for us and is an absolute star for doing so.

Plummy

[Iain]

Hi Aren and welcome to FS. Thanks for the comprehensive intro. Although I once did 7:15.9 2k, I am far from that now so expect to see you above me on the CTC. Interested to see your training going forward and perhaps some of your thoughts on mine. I struggle to row more than 3-4 days per week so although I do regular >21k days the Crazy Bear has not fitted so far. that said, happy to do more focussed event and would really like to do a 1,000,000M Tandem if I can find a nutter willing to do it with me. Found 24hr Tandem with Plummy surprisingly enjoyable, hence wanting to go the next step. The downside is that the rules state the erg must not stop spinning so it involve some sleep deprivation as doing >2hr stretches would make this very hard. You also don't mention where you are from.

Re thoughts on your post, I have never been sure of FTP on Rowerg. Do you mean "threshold" or power for best hour? I think the latter is different to a bike as pace drops off quicker beyond 20 min on Rowerg presumably from the greater forces required. I am a bit of a training science nerd, but have limited experience applying the info, so would welcome your corrections from your experience when I go down the wrong tack on my posts.

Best wishes

IAin

[ArenT]

I may have missed it but did you mention how old you are? I see that in top shape you are a LWT so 7:18.x and that is a very respectable time but where it lies in comparison does somewhat depend on which age group.

Hello Plummy. Ah, Father Time. Well, I'm now (or will be, in just under two weeks) 43. So most of my PBs date back about 10 years ago in my early 30s. However, I don't believe/feel I have lost any real physiological capacity since then, just a matter of how much/well trained I am. Or to put it another way, from more recent efforts I know, at least, that I have not yet lost any heart rate reserve, as I have hit over 200+bpm in the last 12 months, so basically unchanged (that was whilst wearing a chest strap; though not rowing!). Since at the time erg rowing on the C2 was primarily a supporting activity rather than a primary focus, I'd like to think that with a concerted effort I should actually be able to better any or all of my previous personal efforts, but it just requires that combination of training volume/consistency, sufficient intensity balanced with recovery, and above all the prepared mental state (i.e. a commitment to effectively punish yourself...). I've used the PB image generator form to populate my historic efforts from the C2 logbook as a bit of motivation. 43 million metres is quite some impressive accomplishment! My logbook has been either a year of quite a lot of metres, or close to none, due to my various pursuits. I've had one season so far past the million metres mark. Since August, this season could well be the next one if I keep this progress/intent/plan going.

You also didn't mention your spm or damper setting - which can be key to quick improvements.

Indeed, I should probably check that, perhaps a fraction low. I think the last time I checked my drag factor was around 110 or so, i.e. the damper was on about 3-4ish. In terms of SPM, I think an area I need to work on is actually the higher stroke rates. I much prefer pulling slow and hard than higher cadence efforts, though that probably reflects the fact that at higher stroke rates you need to be all the more precise in order to really nicely "grab" the catch in a smooth yet powerful manner.

It would be interesting to know what people's thoughts are on the relative physiological efficiency of maintaining a given power output for a given SPM, but particularly on efforts that are approaching or near to threshold (so let us say, UT1, perhaps up to AT in rowing parlance). Very different cadences/spm are obviously possible; you could pull 22-24 spm with comparatively powerful strokes, or more like 28spm with higher cadence lighter strokes. Perhaps I should buy the book "Rowing Science" or similar, as I'd be interested to know how the losses in moving up and down the slide are counterbalanced by the potential gains of using more of your aerobically efficient slower twitch fibres with lower but more frequent power applications at higher spms. I know it doesn't exactly translate to cycling, but the general trend is that nearly all of the best climbers in the world now pedal with quite high cadences all of the time, as that seems a more physiologically sustainable/trainable way to produce high watts/kg near to your limit for a given extended period of time. The old slow grinding a big gear has largely disappeared. So I wonder how much of that translates to rowing. In the 2K races they often seem to be well into the 30s for spm, but that is obviously a comparatively short lung-busting VO2max effort that is just in the hinterland between the aerobic and anaerobic-alactate systems, which is no doubt why it is so particularly excruciating. I suspect my higher SPMs are an area therefore of improvement. Unless I specifically focus on it, I naturally tend to gravitate to something more like 24-ish, even for relatively hard efforts.

I look forward to seeing your name on the CTC and the meterboard and here on the forum as much as you like.

Question for anyone. I have the Erg Zone app on my phone/tablet, and it does seem to be the only one (surprisingly) that has actually properly thought through storing any non-trivial number of workouts with any kind of organisation for easy transfer to the PM5. The free ErgData app is very nice, but the way of "Favouriting" workouts leaves a lot to be desired in terms of actually organising any, since there are no folders, tags, or organisational methods available.

Anyway, has anyone here bought the Erg Zone app subscription, and is it worth it? I am tempted. I note that it also allows you to directly upload CTC workout efforts, so that is handy. There is also a Free Spirits group/community on there I see, too.

P.S. Jon T's eyes might have lit up when he saw you are a software developer - he ploughs a lonely furrow looking after all things forum/tables/tech for us and is an absolute star for doing so.

Ecosystem fragmentation seems to be a real issue for smaller niche groups/sports/interests like rowing/erging. It seems to have stabilised a bit, with most of the visible activity either here or on the main Concept2 forum, Facebook (of course), and probably, particularly, /r/rowing on Reddit. Not much life/rowing stuff going on in Discord, at least not in terms of public servers.

Happy to help with any tech stuff.

would really like to do a 1,000,000M Tandem if I can find a nutter willing to do it with me

Hi Iain. That really does sound like a monster challenge. The prospect of sharing a 1 million metre C2 row sounds like a far, far, more intimidating/difficult prospect even compared to my 600km+ rides; not only would such a row take place over a longer time frame, there is also the fact that there is no variation of scenery/weather/anything, and on a bicycle you do at least get alternating periods of rest when you freewheel or lightly pedal down the other side of the hill! It reminds me a long-distance ultra running event I read about called the Tunnel. You can easily Google it, but essentially it involves competitors running backwards and forward in near constant pitch-black of an extended tunnel section for basically an entire weekend solid. Few people finish it, due to the incredible psychological difficulty as much as the physiological difficulty (which is formidable).

You also don't mention where you are from.

I am based up in North East England relatively near to Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

I think the latter is different to a bike as pace drops off quicker beyond 20 min on Rowerg

Yes, I would think the slopes are indeed a bit different. My personal theory is this: the same trunk muscles that are heavily involved in the rowing motion/stabilisation also play a significant/important role in breathing/respiration. Rowing is therefore "doubly" hard: not only do you have to increase your oxygen uptake (as normal) as you increase effort, these same muscles are then further stressed as they are heavily utilised in stabilising the trunk during the application of power during the rowing stroke. You don't really have this issue on a bicycle, though slightly different problems arise there (if we're talking about outside real-world cycling), namely in terms of maintaining a scrunched up aerodynamic time trial position which is extremely sub-optimum in terms of breathing position. Another parallel also with rowing: every stroke on the erg also compresses up your organs at the catch, though at least one can synchronise one's breathing to cope with this impediment (less so if your previous meal is not fully digested!).

I think short of a true race/extremely intense/motivating environment, getting a true 60 minute "FTP" on the rower is close to impossible, even more so than on a indoor turbo trainer, and that is already agonising enough. I'd actually say (purely as my own heuristic/rule of thumb/feel, rather than some data drive answer) that a near maximum 10km effort, for most individuals, and the types of times we'd likely log (e.g. say somewhere in the region of the 40 minute mark) is pretty damn close to your "rowing FTP". Alternatively, 0.9 * 5000m best effort time with that resultant conversion to watts is probably also close. The geeky approach would be to look at the power/HR cardiac drift chart as well in something like Training Peaks or equivalent.

The interesting thing, for me, at a general level, is how comparatively underutilised "power" is as a rowing/erging training/planning tool, compared to the world of cycling. The issue with pace is that it becomes so non-linear as the splits ramp up. e.g. 2:00/500m is 202W, but 1:55 is 230W. So that seemingly relatively small shift from 2:00 -> 1:55 is actually > 10% power increase, or 30W, which is a lot. Devising splits/training targets with precision's of say +1/-1 second/500m might not be too troublesome for very experienced rowers, but it is still much harder to target than say +5/-5 watts ranges, for example. Meanwhile those target ranges get even more problematical for even harder/shorter efforts with lower splits, where the differences become huge: 1:40/500m is 350W! I know programs like EXR etc. are starting to change/influence this approach, but still, it is interesting.

On a personal level, I'm still "gathering data" on how, based on my own experiences, cycling "FTP" relates to SkiErg "FTP" relates to RowErg "FTP" and finally running "FTP" (running being the least accurate/most inferred one due to the lack of any real direct way of measuring power; having said that, though, my Garmin DOES seem remarkably "self-consistent", and it is self-consistency rather than absolute values that actually matter in terms of training, so I think the numbers do have value). I'd say my rowing FTP is probably about 40W or about 20% lower than my cycling FTP, and if I was to train them both heavily and equally, I think it would probably stabilise at closer to 25% as I think the greater efficiencies/continuous nature of cycling movement means that "neurological"/CNS gains are a bit easier (versus hypertrophic/muscular/raw output gains). SkiErg I'd say 20% lower than the RowErg again.

Contrary to many posts I've read all over the internet, I strongly disagree that SkiErg is predominantly an upper-body exercise. Yes, it does not recruit as many muscles or quite as significantly across the musculature as the RowErg, in absolute terms, but done properly, it smokes your hips/hamstrings/glutes/calves/core as much as it does your arms/shoulders/triceps. It is very much a full body movement that hits a huge amount of musculature. My observation is that people see the movement and think of it as a [arm-]"pulling" movement, which it isn't really. If you observe someone in a typical gym which has SkiErg's, they immediately see it as an "arm exercise", and indeed proceed to almost be static as they attempt to mash the cables with 95% of the effort coming from the puny triceps. It is hip-hinging/folding motion, almost exactly like a reverse or eccentric kettlebell swing. It is also well suited to long endurance/steady state efforts as well, not just HIIT efforts like it is usually programmed for. Of course, it does go well in a mixed/HIIT program because you are not strapped into the machine and can simply step away to instantly switch to another movement. Anyway, I digress

Cheers

Aren.

[Iain]

Thanks for the extensive response.

Re training to power, this is much more critical for cycling due to hills! On the Rowerg it is a matter of which you prefer and most of us think in terms of pace rather than power, but I do the conversion in my stats spreadsheet. When the easy wins are gone I think most of us focus on average pace in decimals at least on longer pieces as 1S/500m is a big gap. That said the feedback from PM limited so I do use projected finish to help. Re FTP I have always been relatively weak at the 5k - 30 min range so 10k would give a higher FTP than your 5k formula although I see it would work well for your PBs. Personally I see "threshold" as the key metric and can see that from the inflection of HR traces around it. I think you will find quite a few ergers believe they have maxed out their hour, its just that it isn't a key physiological metric, particularly as pace changes flatten around it.

Re ratings, I struggle to hit higher ratings, naturally settling at 18-20 and really struggling with breathing above 28. But Other than artificial efforts (30R20 etc) the work per stroke I produce doesn't vary that much for me, so to go faster I need to train to maintain a higher rating.

Shame I can't persuade you into the 1MM tandem. I reckon it would be significantly less than 4 days. I agree that erging longer sessions through the night while the partner sleeps would be tough. For the 24hr Tandem I persuaded a support crew to be present as well as Dave. So we did quizzes and had a physio on hand throughout, but finding support over multiple days would be tougher.

Looking forward to "seeing" your training and your thoughts on mine.

All the best

Iain

[Ian Bee]

Shame I can't persuade you into the 1MM tandem. I reckon it would be significantly less than 4 days.

These are the kind of posts which get people in trouble you know

Would that be 50k stints or higher

[Iain]

Shame I can't persuade you into the 1MM tandem. I reckon it would be significantly less than 4 days.

These are the kind of posts which get people in trouble you know

Would that be 50k stints or higher

I was hoping for mere 15 min stints (maybe 128 each) except for maybe 2 hours through the night (6 each). Personally happy to try going through without any sleep, but I thought that might be asking a bit much!

[Ian Bee]

30mins could work (decent time to stretch/refuel)? Bigger chunks overnight certainly seems best.