How to row faster for long periods

[JtheDad]

I am currently rowing 80 minutes at a time, 5 days a week at 2:06-2:10. My goal is to do 100k in that time, ie 2:00/500m. In order to sustain this week after week, my HR really can’t go above 150 for long, unless I had to take pseudoephedrine or it’s really hot.

For my 6th day, I have been doing 4x2k with a long 7:20 rest. Average pace about 1:54. I’ve also just started lifting twice a week, just bench and squats. Nothing too serious. Before I started rowing I lifted big and heavy for 10 years.

I think a big weakness for me, despite all my years of squats and deadlifts, is stroke power. I have been unable to reach what I believe to be my maxHR on the erg for maybe a year. My legs seem to be the limiting factor during my long pieces as well, lately my HR hardly goes above 150 because the RPE and leg fatigue is too much.

I have also been thinking about mixing in some longer pieces, maybe 100-120min with a short break. Gonna try for 100min tomorrow since I’ve got to take a few days off to get the family up north to the campground

So I’m seeking advice! What should I do with my 6th day? Should I take a lifting block? Should I add more meters?

I’m 30M 6’2” 230lb my best 2k is a 6:59

[Iain]

A lot of info here. You don't mention your Max HR, so "150" is not too helpful (Zone 2 for some and above threshold for some others) what sessions have you pushed and found HR plateauing there? Different people have different HR responses, but most find a 4 x 2k with all out last pushes it close to max, although a longer continuous piece might push it harder (say 5k) finishing with an all out sprint. A step test is the recommended approach of 4min at increasing paces to exhaustion with only a short rest between, but these are hard! It has been reported that some people's Max HR decreases as they get fitter (heart pumping more volume at lower rate due to increased stroke volume meaning it is still doing more work), also, did you record max HR on a rower, as many people report lower values than running or cycling.

I have done very little lifting so can't help there, I would say that this is generally used to increase strength that is not likely to be an issue over longer distances, but maintaining strength is important and will become more so as your testosterone levels drop in the future, but for now I would suggest twice a week is ample. I do wonder whether you might be overreaching. I struggle to get my HR above 90% HRR when I have been exercising too much. If your 2k is current, I would have thought that you could get 4 x 2k a little lower. Maybe try the PP approach of doing first 3 at the average of last time and push the pace of the last.

As I said to you on another thread, to improve you need much of the SS to be significantly below maximum. 80' takes its toll. Can you conduct a conversation during these rows? Personally I would make one of the other rows a bit quicker. Maybe shorter intervals at closer to 2k pace (something like 8 x 500 with 3+ min rest between is a good starter). If increasing distance, I would suggest you do this slowly and perhaps do the early ones at the slower end of your range. To do 100km at 2:00 means upping your threshold so that you are further from your aerobic limit at that pace. 2:06 to 2:00 is a 16% increase in power, so basically you need to train your body to sustainably deliver 16% ore oxygen to your muscles and for your muscles to have the mitochondria to use it. That takes time. The improvement can come in one of 2 ways:

1) "Sharpening" that will come from the faster sessions and pushing yourself when well rested. This can produce significant short term improvements (6-8 weeks), but gains are short lived (essentially need this exercise to be kept up or they will reverse) and rapidly plateau and

2) "Base fitness". This is built from all the long training, pace does not have to be high. It produces the biggest gains, but is slow to have an effect, needing to be measured in months.

What capacity you have of the sharpening potential will depend upon what training you have done over the last 2-3 months. If all training has been SS, you might get a significant boost there, It is not the case that the only benefits for endurance are from long rows.

Going back to your initial question (sorry for the long answer), We can row fast for surprisingly long sessions with the right mental approach. My HR hits 90%+ for most of an all out HR. But that needs to be recovered from and won't meet your goals. The pace that we can manage for 5 days a week on top of a harder rowing session and weights is how to increase the pace of long rows at a pace that doesn't need more than 24hrs of recovery. Basically the answer is that it needs to be sub-maximal, so you would need to get your sustainable pace significantly faster than this, so you will need to get your 4 x 2k well below 1:50 and preferably close to your 2k pace. That is a big improvement, but as a tall and young person may well be achievable.

Hope it goes well and look forward to seeing your training to get a better feel for it.

- Iain

[JtheDad]

Iain,

Sorry I missed my maxHR. The absolute highest my HR has ever been recorded was on an erg, it was 207. That was maybe 2 years ago? Over the last 6 months or more though, I have been unable to get much over 190.

I do occasionally have conversations during my SS pieces and I have done a lot of them over the years to know: if I hang out in the 150s, I’m toast after 3-4 weeks. If I predominantly stay under 150, I can go much longer without taking an easy week.

It sounds like you’re saying I should only do 4 days of SS and make 2 days harder days? I was very afraid that would be the case haha.

I am worried about overtraining. Especially with the small kids and poor sleep that comes with them. But for the summer, with various trips crushing my consistency, I hope it’s not a concern.

Thanks so much for all your thoughts!!! I’m about to do my first 100’ piece in quite some time. Goal pace is 2:10-2:11.

[JonT]

As ever, an amazing answer from Iain that I will not try to match. It would be useful however to know what kind of stroke rate you are using for these long pieces and what the drag factor on your ergo is.

Jon

P.S. Your posts will soon stop being held until someone approves them - that only happens to new users.

[Iain]

J, another harder session isn't essential, but it is likely to help you to achieve your goal quicker so long as the SS is slow enough, doing a 5k faster (add the metres as a SS after if you want distance) is an alternative to intervals or a shorter 1k or 2k. I would say that less than 15min is unlikely to hit Max HR. There is a lot of difference in how our bodies respond and you will know yours best. But if more short of sleep than usual, I suggest that you add 2S/500M or so onto your SS pace or reduce the length of your session. Also, if you have only recently added in the faster session, you might like to start slowing the following session a little until you get used to them, especially if your HR climbs higher than usual in first 10-20 min. I may be reading too much into your answer, but if at your current pace when not doing hard sessions you did expect your performance to require an easier week sooner or later, it suggests that you weren't recovering fully so again the answer is slower or shorter for the moment.

As for Max HR, we do sometimes get abnormal readings (eg atrial fibrillations), so if this was only seen once and was significantly higher than other times it might be above your true Max Hr. Can you see any pattern in higher HR sessions? Were these after easier weeks? Personally even if 207 were your true HR 2 years ago, I would say hitting mid 190s most weeks is fine for your purposes, particularly if you are significantly fitter now than when you hit the 207. If it is never getting above 192, you could try an all out 5k building at the end from 1k out to a full on sprint for last 300, but best done when well rested and after a day off to establish a current estimate of maximum. That said, follow the PP prescription above and you don't need to know max HR, I know that generally I would rather have the uncertainty than face a true all out effort!

Re stroke power, knowing ratings as Jon said would be really helpful. But as someone who is large and has done weights, I doubt that strength would be a problem for distances over 2k, although technique errors can lead to lost "work per stroke" to give it its real name. Ensuring that arms are straight at the catch and in the same direction as the chain and that your body doesn't rotate forward during the leg drive can make quite a difference. As can slowing the slide up for the recovery.

Just some thoughts.

Iain

[JtheDad]

Thanks guys!

I usually work at 19-21 spm. Drag factor 130+/-.

I’ll buy your bit about my maxHR. Using 53 (measured) and 192 on the calculator here, my UT2 zone is 129-150, which is basically what I was saying before about being toast after 3-4 weeks if I go over 150 too long.

I have been doing 4x2k once a week most of this calendar year. I was doing 8x500m for the first 5 months as well, I wanted to see what I could do on the 2k by my 30th birthday this past June. Sometimes I only do 60’ the day after the 4x2k.

RE: short term & long term pacing… I think what I love about rowing is this consistent push. I basically exist on the edge of what my body can keep up with, and if I end up over that line then I take an easy week. For me that means an extra day off (maybe 2), 40 & 60 min rows, no sprints. In fact I was just telling a friend at the Y today that I NEED something to focus on, a goal to pursue, but it can’t get in the way of my focus on my kids and the house. Rowing does that because the MAX I can do is 80min/day for most days, unless the babysitter comes to get the kids.

On technique. My arms have always been just a teensy bit bent. I feel like I am fighting them with my triceps to keep them straight as an arrow. Idk what to do but when I do fight that battle, I honestly don’t feel any better connection. I like to think my core is holding strong at the catch, I do tons of planks lol. But I will get a video this weekend for you guys to give an opinion. I know for sure it’s not perfect, so it will be good no matter what to hear your thoughts. Thinking now I wonder if my recovery needs work. It’s a lot of weight to slide around, I don’t tend to be careful with it hahah.

[Iain]

You shouldn't be fighting to keep your arms straight, although I do sometimes need to concentrate to get them straight. The trick (that I have not mastered) is to use your lats not your biceps on the leg drive, keeping your arm muscles relaxed. Also, I for one often drop my hands at the catch when tiring which has the same effect as the start of the drive with my legs is lost pulling my hands up rather than accelerating the chain. On 80 min rows relaxing is key as every bit of excess effort detracts from performance. I wasn't expecting there to be a major technique fault, but it does need eliminating and would have been a quick win. None of us are training for the olympics, so important that you do what meets your needs. But progress may well be slower if max sessions are effected by the preceding rows as shown by many studies that indicate amateur athletes tend to train too slowly in the maximum sessions and too hard in the rest to maximise their gains.

Looking at your rating you would need to row at R24 or a more powerful stroke to row at 2:00 pace. What rating do you do for the 4x2k, 2k PB &/or the 500s (and, if the latter, what pace were these at?). Rating is very personal, there are people who can row SS at R24, I am at the other end of the spectrum and struggle to maintain anything above R18. Use HR as your benchmark. Is there a pattern of your HR lower or higher when you row at the top rather than the bottom of your range? If you split the difference and row 2:00 at R22, you should be rowing R20 at 2:04, so you could try and build to this by rowing R18 with a harder stroke, aiming to get this up to 2:08 for the strength of stroke that you would need. As well as technique, some people don't settle into a rhythm of a powerful drive. While 130 is in the normal range for DF, have you tried other values? Higher drag means that you are taxing your upper body & arms more than at lower drag. Any change will feel wierd, but you could try rowing at DF 120 and trying to hit your usual pace and find how HR responds. If you need to raise rating or Hr goes higher, this might indicate that you aren't driving hard enough with your legs (it may also make any bent arm rowing worse), but you would need to repeat a couple of times to make sure.

I think your goal is great as a medium / long term target, but you might like to construct interim goals. Perhaps do a long distance at 2:00 pace and see how far you get instead of your second hard row. Hopefully you will see the distance increasing. If you are using all your available time for this, then up the pace and start again from a shorter distance. I would suggest that if 2:00 is your SS pace for regular 80min rows, you should be able to do a 10k in about 37:30 (although again we are all different and if you are happy for the SS not to be a recovery pace then you wouldn't need to be quite that fast).

Just random thoughts, apologies for the overload!

[JtheDad]

Hey Iain no worries about some big ideas. Just break it up for me lol.

Going up on stroke rate was a GREAT idea. My first try I went at an easy breezy 2:07 for 60 minutes. Barely made it over 140bpm. I did notice it was much easier to let my pace— and heart rate— rise quickly. That seems like good news as well! On 4x2k I do 30-32 most of the time. My recent 5k was 33 for 4k then 36. My last 2k was 34 until I died in the last 500m.

I did a 5k, 19:11. I went 1:56.5-ish until the last 1000 and cut off 25 seconds or so. Should have more speed on me for the next one.

Still waiting on a video. I have been watching my arms. I think they got better when I started relaxing my shoulders and reaching a tiny bit. Makes it more natural to use my lats. Haven’t thought about it in a while tbh. Before I tried to keep my shoulder blades like at attention the whole time, so a bit of a reach made a huge difference.

I also tried def at 120 and I suppose it felt, easier? Idk I’ll roll with it for a while along with the higher spm. I think it works with my body better.

Thanks again for all your thoughts. Gonna try 2 hours tomorrow, been a while and I went on (and off) the tube behind my FIL’s boat. Guy knows how to have a fun time.

[Iain]

Those are high rates. Some people find this works well for them (mostly fitter than strong) and this is in the normal range, but the majority find a harder stroke at a lower rate works best for them, average is 28-30 for the 4x2ks and similar for hard 5k, so not surprised that you "died" in final 500 of your 5k, but it was so much faster that few would call that a "die". The perfect finish would see your pace drop despite best efforts to the pace that you were doing before the final push as you cross the line, otherwise you could have pushed sooner with a positive impact. Based on that 5k, I would expect that you could do a sub 40' 10k, but would probably struggle to do 15k in an hour (ie 2min/500m), so 80 min @ 2' pace as a one off would be an aspiration and repeating it several times a week definitely unrealistic at the moment!

Looks like you are getting positive benefits from previous suggestions, so I will let you work through these before confusing you further!

Best wishes

IAin

[JtheDad]

I got 2 technique videos for you guys! Y’all were totally right, as soon as I saw the video I could see me shoulders and arms causing a hitch in the catch. I was bracing before the catch like I was trying to catch a medicine ball.

https://youtu.be/0JcrIfJjzDM?si=jWeBMeMcw9uUv_s7/

I started to focus on relaxing my shoulders and feeling the catch with my hands. I was imagining my butt just moving away as my hands hung on, nothing in the lots until my hands say so. This made me so much faster. Like a free 2 seconds off my split. Yesterday was the EASIEST 19k row of my life, I barely touched 145bpm. Today though, it seems my legs need to catch up. I lost those 2 seconds in my legs after about 50 min.

https://youtu.be/0JcrIfJjzDM?si=jWeBMeMcw9uUv_s7

I can’t thank you enough Iain. My slow days are almost as good as my old fast days all thanks to your suggestions. Tomorrow I might have to go a bit short, yoga Tuesday, then I’m gonna try 2:00 to failure on Wednesday.

[Iain]

Definitely a lot better than many! My technique is bad and there are others on this forum much better at identifying issues than me, but my thoughts are: Some of your strokes don't transition smoothly. The force curve on your PM should not show any dips mid-stroke, so rowing on that setting will let you see the effect as you try and integrate the elements of the stroke. Also I would say your hands are slightly low at the catch. Finally I would say that you could hinge a bit further from your hips when moving your body forward to get a bit closer to the cage with your hands. But a great start and definite improvement between videos.

[JonT]

First of all - as Iain says, this is already pretty good and way better than the majority of rowers

Second - many people hesitate to post videos for fear of criticism.

Your overall form and sequencing is good. We are in the 'tweak' zone here. I'm not sure whether you have ever rowed on the water, but you have a very pronounced dip of the handle during the recovery, which is fine but makes getting the catch right much more difficult because there is a lot more going on and a lot to coordinate. You may not choose to try this, but many people think of the chain as a solid rod which is going in a straight line all the way from the catch to the recovery and back again i.e. your hands are following a straight, slight upwards diagonal during the drive and back along exactly the same path during the recovery. This would be a big change for you, but would simplify things massively. The biggest impact would be your hand positioning at the catch. Right now, if you watch the video frame by frame, you will see that your hands are lower at the catch than they are a few 10ths of a second later. This means that you are not putting all of the force of the drive straight through your arms into the ergo. Getting this right will make far more difference than you imagine. The start of that drive is where a lot of power is applied or lost.

The second change (highlighted by Iain) is that you can afford to rotate more during the recovery so that your chest and hands are slightly closer to the machine. Think about the traditional 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock positions. You are doing a great job of getting to 1 o'clock at the end of the drive, but probably getting to 12 0'clock on the recovery. Don't over do this by leaning in too far, but just getting a few degrees closer will extend your drive length and the effect of each stroke.

It's great to see how quickly you are improving your performance, and let me join you in thanking Iain for all of the effort he puts in to helping many of us in this group.

[JtheDad]

I have been working on your suggestions and getting over a week-long stomach illness. Getting my upper body forward has been causing some persistent lower back pain. I really think my core is just not strong enough to sustain this change. Late in the week I can feel the back pain come and go stroke to stroke, depending on how firmly I hold my core. Here is a video from the early part of yesterday’s SS, I wish I had a video from the last 10 minutes. My back did not start to hurt until later in the day yesterday.

https://youtu.be/AtP4M0T4o2E?si=hiPVbxzWGC97d2bJ

I’m looking for suggestions on how to fox this problem. If it is core weakness, more planks? Or should I look for other core exercises? Or is it something else, a tightness in the hips or something? In the meantime, I am gonna back off closer to 12 o’clock at the catch again.

RE: hand height. I have been working on lifting my hands BEFORE the catch. I did find it really hard to go totally straight, and since I do hope to row on the water more in coming years so I’m not sure if I want to put a ton of effort into that change.

On the hitch in the middle: I think it is the transition from hips to arms, my force curve looks smooth if I start my arms/shoulders a bit earlier.

[spidermac]

As others have said kudos for posting videos! By no means an expert but on a quick view - looks like you are overcompressing a bit at the catch - shins should be vertical. I had a few back problems last year & came across a suggestion to lower the foot stretchers which helped - you seem to have them set quite hi. Avoid reaching too far & pulling hard at the catch power should build thro the middle of the stroke & come from the legs. ALso strapless rowing has a use but most of your rowing should be strapped in. Feel free to ignore all of this!!!

[Iain]

Not much to add to Spider's comments. lowering the foot cradle would mean that you come a bit further forward, but it would also tend to increase the over compression, so horses for courses. Re back pain, is this a continuous ache or spasms when you try and use it? Whenever I upped my volume I was getting a continuous ache later in the day. I have since added a back stretch to my cooldown where I hold my toes and get my head down as far as I can for 30-45S. Since then I have had tiredness, but the ache (and the sharper pains I got periodically) have not recurred. I also used to do crunches to strengthen my core.

Not sure about "pulling too hard at the catch", I think sometimes you start with your hands too low and so there is a jerk as the chain comes up. This is one of my many technical issues and I can feel when it happens as I can feel the tension coming in after the catch. That said, there should be an acceleration through the stroke as Spider says, but you should see this on the force curve.

Re strapless, impressed that you have taken to this. Some people do most of their rowing strapless, but if you may increase your rating you will need to strap in.

Your stroke is much better than mine, so please take any of this with a pinch of salt.

Best wishes

Iain

[JtheDad]

My back pain is pretty sharp. Before it was only when I tried to use it but now it is kind of achey all the time.

I tried to just go back to 12 on Wednesday, could only do an hour before my legs got tired. Guess that illness really took it out of me. But then later that day my back started hurting worse. Today I sat on the row machine and stopped after 7min. I am gonna have to take some days off. 3? 5? We’ll see how I feel. But the pain right now is kinda bad.

RE stretching. I take it very seriously, when lifting in my early 20’s I discovered that flexibility = strength. I usually stretch 20min minimum. Focus on hips and hamstrings but it’s all over. For this pain I’be found a wide open butterfly stretch, like putting your feet by your head, really helps the most.

[Iain]

Personally I would see a physio. Only encountered something similar with upper back pain (diagnosed in the end as stiff fascia joints and cured in minutes). Struggled visualising the stretch, I assume you move your head to your feet, or are you a contortionist? If the latter, I would worry about hyper mobility issues!

[JtheDad]

It just so happens my older brother is a physio!

He lives a few hours away but he recommended this mobility exercise and the locust/superhero pose.

https://youtube.com/shorts/SlzYz7SQns4? ... zjaIECN_Yn

[Iain]

Looks like the movement when rowing! Hope it helps.

Iain

[JonT]

Sorry I haven't chipped in on this recently.

My experience of back pain (which is almost certainly going to be different to yours) is that it is far more frequent when I have neglected my hamstrings.

In terms of your form. Others have mentioned you are now slightly over extending at the catch and taking your knees beyond vertical.

My one big recommendation would be this:get yourself into what you believe is the perfect position for the start of the catch: (back angle, shins, wrist alignment, handle height). Take a photo and make sure you are happy. Now think about being in that position and holding it (for a split second) just as the catch starts, and then 'easing' into the drive. If you can get that positioned nailed and consistent and then smoothly transition into the drive, accelerating the handle all the way through it, then I think that will be a big step forward. Right now the catch looks unstable and like you are grabbing at it a little. I hope this helps.

Once again - you are already looking very good. This is all fine tuning.

[JtheDad]

JonT,

Thanks so much for your tip about the catch! You were right, unstable and grabby would describe how my catch can feel as well. Your idea about pausing for an instant really helped me and it did not slow my stroke rate at all.

The knees going too far is getting better with this advice, and I’m getting back up to speed the last few days. I tried a 5k and wound up just over 20min, big disappointment. But it worked how I intended: it reminded my body that we can actually row pretty fast haha. Before the 5k my HR was up and so was my split time. Much improved the next couple days and I got back up to 80min yesterday.

Thanks for all the input! I’ll update next week, hopefully I’ll be 80-90% of normal. Probably gonna try a 4x2k tomorrow, not sure.

[JtheDad]

Hey guys I’m just here trying to accept how much I lost in August. Average today over 80min was 2:13 and it’s time I accepted that’s normal for now. My 4x2k is gonna have to be like 1:56 ave and my 5k even higher than that.

I’m bummed but trying to keep my head up. I might take a volume block for a couple months. I smoked too much weed this summer (probably more than once a week ) and I think it’s making things a good bit worse. Whether I change my training plan or not it’s time to hunker down.

[Iain]

No idea of effect of weed on rowing, but it generally saps motivation that may make sustaining tough rows harder. I’m surprised that you are expecting to row 4x2k faster than 5k, most find it slightly slower. You don’t mention how hard the 2:13 pace was, but I would expect to be a couple of secs faster over 80min if all out, while my 5k would be at 2:04 or so, I know 5k to 10k is relatively weak for me, but that looks a big gap to me!

Pete used to reckon on 1S/500M slower per week off if that helps. Also, I find it takes a few rows to accept the pain of a hard session, so we’ll worth doing a few long slow rows first and working back up to the tough stuff.

I find that HR does funny things on my return. RPE lower for a given HR, so I ignore normal limits having managed >20 mins at 95% of max after a 3 month lay off, something I definitely couldn’t do when fit, the downside is HR typically hits 85% at low intensity and above 90% when start to sweat!

We all have times when training falls away. Many coaches recommend it once a year, so just take it as an early break, don’t beat yourself up and congratulations on getting back on the iron horse before you lost all of the gains!

[JtheDad]

The 2:13 pace was easy and breezy. I could have gone at least 2:10 but my HR was getting high right away. Remember I’m trying to do this 5x a week so it can’t be all out. All out would maybe be around 2:05. I did 70min at 2:00 at the beginning of August, I’m a long way from there right now.

You say 1S/week and I really only took 2 weeks off. I have been wondering if I’m carrying a slight illness, maybe next week will bring some improvement. But I’m mentally preparing for a bit of a slog to get back where I was in July, ie sub-19 5k in sight & most importantly doing SS at 2:08 or less.

5k & 4x2k times are still up in the air since I haven’t finished one without losing pace at the end in weeks. I was gonna try another 4x2k starting at 1:57+ and goin down .5-.7 or so per rep. With your thoughts on going a tad slower than 5k pace and how the last few have gone, I will probably start closer to 1:59. Sigh.

The weed itself isn’t the issue. It’s the smoking. My lungs are kinda mad I think.