Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

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Claudius
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Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

ok, just wrote it out of the blue- it is more authentic...but maybe the essential messages are not clear...now the short form without long text:

- you can connect the rower with zwift - you need the rowedbiker app - look at the video from John or the other link
- you can boost your ftp - and thats the difficult part- to boost or not
- 30%boost may work for many cyclists rowing...but this value changes...and racing with others could be unfair...
- when you are also cycling it will corrupt your data in some way
- hey its still a game ! no religion !
- just try it...you have 25km a month for free
- maybe you´ll experience that rowing with zwift will effect your training becoming much more dynamic...ocd...that was great...but it wont work with a zwift group ride.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

by the we way our former team mate John S. made a video how to connect your rower : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymPsvJ-dgBs

or this article from the developer of rowedbiker/painsled : https://www.patreon.com/posts/rowing-with-38157103
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

dont get me wrong...i dont say that i am fast...despite the progress in December, i do say: my Avatar is fast ! what effects speed in zwift ? The most important is your wattage output- which can be augmented up to the factor 1.5 with the rowedbiker app, 2nd weight, 3rd height....
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

I love the idea of all the connectivity nowadays 😎 but I have the feeling it would fry my brain 😂
I had enough trouble with getting a decent enough connection to the internet where I live out in the countryside 😳 I've had to resort to satellite.
I bet a set up of big screen & some good tunes would be heaven for my 90+ minute sessions though 😎😎
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

Thank you for your Answer, Kevin

it just came to my mind that i explain what you can do with zwift even that they haven´t integrated rowing already. And that it possible make some fun. A middle qualitiy internet connection is necessary to enjoy a zwift workout. As i mentioned: just try it...you have 25km a month for free.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

Claudius wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:09 pm Thank you for your Answer, Kevin

it just came to my mind that i explain what you can do with zwift even that they haven´t integrated rowing already. And that it possible make some fun. A middle qualitiy internet connection is necessary to enjoy a zwift workout. As i mentioned: just try it...you have 25km a month for free.
I didn't realise you have a free allowance each month 😎 I might give it a try when I bring the Concept2 back into the house next week 😎 I have a bike-erg on order now too. So it would be interesting to try it all out.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

- managed to be at lvl 50 in about 18m rowing only in april
- now it is rowing meets running
- "you'll always row with a factor of 1.0" no boost, no cut, which then means running distance is the rowing distance, thats nice
- this doesn't cost you anything. you just have to install zwift, create an avatar, and here you could be honest, too, by running with your specs, because it doesn't effect your running speed
- sorry, this doesn't count for me, i am still not running with myself, all this has a deeper meaning (to me)
- it is indeed not that exciting than cycling, but it has also it mentioned pros
- i once compared cycling on zwift with a big roller coaster, and running with a small carousel- to be fair- lets call it an exciting nice carousel, the big roller coaster is still cycling !

thats the small update...the question is, how long will it take to be at lvl 21 running ?
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Mat »

When I read your initial post Claudius, I did think that I';d give it a go.... but I still haven't!

I do have a Zwift account and use it 3-4 times per week for cycling but still haven't tried the rowing connection - do you know whether you need a PM5 or can it be done with a PM4?

I will get around to doing it soon - I promise. In the meantime its good to hear that enjoying running on this platform too :fsbgrin: I still miss running but promised my consultant (and my wife) that I wouldn't after my hip replacement!
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

Mat wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:08 pm need a PM5 or can it be done with a PM4?
It is possible to connect the pm4 with a cable to the smartphone and rowedbiker. However I prefer cable ergdata and rowedbiker via bt. But this only works with a pm5. With a pm4 you have to retrieve the workout files with the c2 utility app.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Mat »

Thanks Claudius
I’m looking for an excuse to upgrade to a pm5… you may have given me one!
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

short summary and some things to think about rowing on zwift.
- Well, it's pretty much the same way since it started, just cruising around on virtual roads while I am sitting on the machine.
- Now lvl 57 (from 60 possible)...spring is about to appear. I want to go out more frequently. It is time to turn that avatar into a running avatar again. Still running lvl 17 (from 30 possible)
-Helping to sweep and give some Draft are our deeds like the "Heinzelmännchen" or the "Brownie" fairytale. So my "intuition" interprets what is going on.
- Obviously still no racing. It never was to discussion.

---> And this is it, the short summary, nothing special <---


Further more:
- There is most recently a "brother" of our rowing machine, a ski-erger, who awaked the interest of the indoor cycling society, because he nearly did what I do every day: Skiing a cycling avatar on Zwift.
- His approach is a bit different. He races frequently. He made it official. Every one can see in his name what he is doing. With a hint to youtube.
- Since he raced also a highly official Zwift race - ZRL - some other Zwifters were upset. He was also mentioned in a podcast and so on. (I find it after some research about the Eddy Hoole story)
- Here is the difference. I do not say it is wrong. I never would judge that guy. I am not in that position. I do not say it is 100% correct what he is doing. He is a talented xc ski athlete. But now most responses of is passion of being an active athlete is: " ahh...he is cheating." And his unique performance as an unusal athlete, who is different, like a different race, is forgotten. Thats a bit sad. I guess he apologized for entering in a highly official race.
- And It is also Eric Min (CEO Zwift) who mentioned in his thanksgiving '21 ride what I am talking about over and over again.
-to finally summarize this, since Zwift is a great inclusive plattform, in which ski ergers and row ergers can do their workouts, or just cruising around. Thank you. Hopefully it remains Inclusive in the future.
- For this, let their be fun races, like a pod car race in star wars, in which on wheel trainers are allowed as well as rowers and ski ergers. No on wheel trainers, or ski ergers and row ergers on higher official races, no segment times, no jerseys for skiers and rowers. Things could be handled quite easy for all of us. We endurance athletes could be one happy family. Since there are no official rules. We make our own rules. And we avoid racing and (try to avoid any) segment jerseys. Maybe I will delete the longer stuff below my short summary. It depends on discussion. What are you thinking, Mat, as an experienced zwift racer or any other virtual indoor plattform user ? Should Zwift get very exclusive by excluding rowers and skiers ? How will they exclude the ebikers and miscalibrated on wheel users ??? Questions. Or just let go ?
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Mat »

Well done on the Zwift sessions Claudius - I can only imagine that it really helps with the motivation for longer rows. I know it makes a huge difference for me on the bike :fsbgrin: Level 57 is a great achievement, with Level 60 well within sight now

I still haven't got around to connecting up the Concept 2 to Zwift and am not sure of the implications in terms of how it would affect my Cycling "profile". At present, I know that Zwifters can have a cycling and a running profile (to which you refer), but that the erg is linked to a cycling profile. I do wonder whether it would make sense for Zwift to introduce an "other" profile to which could be linked rowers, ski ergs etc etc?

The issue of competing rather than simply cruising the virtual worlds is a bit of a tricky one. I did hear and read a few of the arguments around this chap who had participated and done well in some Zwift races on the ski-erg. My understanding is that the issue centred on hime being allowed to "inflate" his output to 150 - 200% which clearly provides an unfair advantage (whatever the factor applied). If any adjustment of the power output is allowed, then this clearly will affect performance in the virtual world.

As a side note, on a similar basis, weight is a huge factor in Zwift. As a high "C" racer I can challenge at the front of "C" races, but will simply get dropped on any climbs because of my weight. Furthermore, speed on the course is primarily a factor of watts / kg, so whilst my overall watts shown in the results may be higher than many ahead of me, I'm slower because the game aims to replicate the real world. I guess the same would apply to an erg being 'translated" into a bike in Zwift

I recall from your earlier post Claudius that you always set your erg to a factor of 1.0 (ie no adjustment, but just pure like for like watts) which seems the fairest way to compete on Zwift without attracting any accusation of cheating. On that basis, I think your Star Wars inspired pod race has certainly got some merit :fsbgrin: I definitely hope that Zwift can become more, rather than less, inclusive

I will have a go before long... just don't want to mess up my existing profile, but I won't know until I try it :fsbgrin:
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

Thank you very much for your answer. There are free spirits at work here. So...

The following lines are not for wimps who are afraid of stranger things. [This is free spirits here, so dont be afraid]

And now I write them completely freely from my own hand. So I'm being completely honest here. It's true: in running, no boost. That's the directive. In running. Honestly, when "the anima" is cycling, it's one of the biggest cheats Zwift has ever seen. The boost is completely controlled by the spirit of ....whom ??? Which is the only true >free spirit< that exists? Unbound. Unatached. Simple. Nothing. Non-existence. Beyond any fantasy, any imagination, any rule. That which cannot be grasped. That which we go to when we die. Simply into the realm of non-existence. We come from nothing, we go to nothing. So Brad Pitt's idea of how he's going to play the role of Joe Black worked pretty well. So I just have these little inspirations of how much I should boost, sometimes 20%, sometimes 30%, 15% to 50% (not often when online). Sometimes it is a cut. The real otherness reveals itself when I get the intuition to hit the A button which directs me to the pairing screen and the avatar performs a full break. Getting a sense of pissed off when we grab a jersey, getting intuitions about what to say when we are riding/rowing - which is apparently also clumsy, typing, rowing, perceiving what I'm supposed to be typing. I wrote it down here and then. It's a spiritual thing. And this is not a weekend retreat, this is not a gxdamn seminar. Believe me. It's not easy. I can't be judged by any human. The biggest "Gurus" these days- how deep were they in this matter ? Questions. I can not judge them either. Because what I reveal on the internet (fairy tales) is just a small sample of the whole story. So I know it's still a cheat. I have created a cheat? The whole universe is a cheat. I am a cheat and have already been DQ'ed for my "sticky bottle" in my hands [the stolen fire]. Non-existence (this strange nothingness) is the great cheater behind everything. The thing I did, where I can only believe there is a choice, was to break the rules of existence. Since this universe is nothing but a breaking of the rules of non-existence - it exists - only as a simulation/illusion.
Sorry for my usual side comments - but everyone has been warned. But these are insights I simply learned not only while rowing on Zwift. Seeing the Illusion. Because these intuitions obviously go far beyond how much boost this nice cute avatar should get. The thing is bigger than this little cheat.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Mat »

Thanks Claudius :D

I enjoyed my journey of fantasy through your stream of consciousness, making sure to keep my hands and feet inside the carriage at all times. Reaching the end, I must confess to having immediately re-joined the queue for another ride.

As your monitor pairs with Zwift, I imagine you reaching for an Alice in Wonderland-esque bottle marked "Drink Me" after which your avatar is magically boosted to an unpredictable greater or lesser extent and which determines the speed at which you fly through the worlds of Watopia and beyond on an adventure of indeterminate length and duration before eventually leaving the world and finding it was all a dream... or was it? :D

And I say enjoy the magic potion... and watch your avatar glide around the various worlds that we may never enter as you slide up and down the erg (or remain stationary if using sliders of course :wink: ).

Nobody could realistically object to boosting the power delivered by your erg when "riding" around Zwift on a free ride and I can't imagine how that could be perceived as cheating by any but the hard of thinking. In a race however... I do think that raw power should be used without any boost
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

Oh yes, Mat, the fairy tale of Alice. That's great. That whole rabbit hole. Just another description to delve into the realm of unconsciousness. Or are we still standing in front of the rabbit hole and it's still a filthy dirty abyss into the unknown and all of its dreamlands are our dreams making the unknown known - consciously - and from the depths of the rabbit whole there is this cheeky voice I am hearing [my fav Trickster?]: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
Some deeper philosophical concepts should involve a profound Dualism. Good and evil ? Boring. Obsolete. The Dualism in our fairytale ? Vollgas - Bremsen ! 1100 Watt - A Button ! Sorry, I love my own Trickster. It's just another Q. So obviously: by exploring unconscious due to a gameplay and breaking some "rules" of the ordinary - the Trickster must be involved, I can go beyond it.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Mat »

Jumping out of the fairytale world for a moment...

is this a new Zwift for Rowing? That's what John Steventon (of Rowalong fame) is asking. Looks interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdOxG4ru9Es
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

Thanks for the link Mat, had a look, it's interesting as with so many new rowing apps how they handle it. If you have ever read my story "What is fit to be?" then it is clear that in the future, and this is also sad but true, I will not rely on an app. Even the pm5 readings I will ignore, just row blindly, just run blindly, without a watch. I have already commented on this in the private FB group Zwifthype. So many apps for rowing. Not a gold standard, so few rowers compared to cycling. But this is it. This is what I wanted to change. A different perspective on our machine. After all, we're all in our pain caves, in our underworld, not outdoors, training. So why not stick with one of the most effective workouts you can do? Cycling neglects the upper body. It's just less effective. Point. Full stop. On the other hand, it's just more fun. It's dynamic. And compared to rowing, anyone can do cycling.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Zwift/p ... 278848183/
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

So it was on Friday, a warmer day, in which we managed to level up to 58. So there was Spring for Friday and Saturday in Bavaria. Now it is running on Zwift again. And it is different. Today I rowed as a third training session a small workout 40/30. Which means the 40 were still easy, but the 30s were a harder effort. Rowing FTP to low VO2 max area. It was on slides. Normally I do not differentiate between slides and static, because 2/3 of my workouts are still on static. This was different, because this workout there are these Ronestad intervals, difficult to programe with a pm5. With Zwift you just enter the workout and this is it. "Cruising around" like my friend prefers to say...to have a look around in my side of the world. The slides help indeed in this fast changing intervals. It is a challenge to quickly alterate the pace according to the workout. In the end it was 34/34 stars and a lot of "farmed xp".
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

Rowing vs Running. The Kickstart Workout on Zwift. This morning I locked myself in the on-call room of the hospital during my emergency doctor duty to hopefully row the half marathon distance into the logbook without interruption to kickstart the new season. Preferably with a workout, of course. Fun. Gives more XP. It works like this: I look at the workouts, my inner voice says no, no, no - oh what's that - that's what we do - that's how it works - in the true sense of the word. Kickstart. From the Zwift Academy run '23. Didn't look so bad at first. I start the workout and there I see: 1:30min 18,7km/h zooooool- that will hurt. Running is not rowing and vice versa. The zones are distributed differently. Simply put, rowing has a smaller speed range. That means that "Avatar" has blue (Zone2), I have gray first (Zone1), Avatar has yellow, I have green- BUT in the higher zone Avatar has Zone5- Vo2max- and I am already in Zone 6 anaerobic. You have to know that so you know where you are. I could go into a little more detail as to why this is so, because of the body weight that has to be kicked away each time vs. the very different kinetics of rowing on the water. When you play a game like this with a lot of fantasy, it's important to know where you are in the real world vs. fantasy.

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/zwift ... kick-start
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

AND now for the same game play as we know IT ? Only that somehow I revealed a lot...on Strava. But not with myself. "Mr. Smith, as you can see, my sheets are clean like your BigBoss Mrs. Prysselius likes them to be..." So I did not reveal anything with my strava account or another, more with a 3rd one. I had a very exciting rowing session on Saturday. It was for me a "just row". A damn hard one. A certain Avatar, theOne without any name, which lived ITs life in computers, was hammering ITs watts on a new route, which is called "Temple Trek" - the most downhill route in Game. Pippi says: Have some imagination ;-) Fantastic long new road. I say: my strava-sheets are clean ! No cheats on my sheets.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by articflipper »

I agree that Zwift is a game and not a religion, but I also think it’s important to be honest and respectful to other users. I don’t want to cheat or ruin the fun for anyone. I’m just looking for a way to enjoy rowing and cycling on Zwift without compromising my integrity or accuracy.
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Re: Rowing meets Cycling - Rowing on Zwift

Post by Claudius »

Thank you for the answer.
It's a cheat either way - because there is no rowing avatar, but the workout is rowing. Thus, what is virtually objectified on the screen is a cheat, lies in the realm of non-existence - there is no reasonable objectifiable correlate in time and space. It is simply the nothingness to which I make my relative watts available in whatever way. A deliberate role reversal. In order to minimize the cheat, which cannot be explained away anyway, you can either try to convert the values of cycling vs. rowing very precisely, one could use the running avatar only, so one do not manipulate the playing-relevant "draft" or "packdynamic". Races should actually be avoided altogether. The numerous ideas and shortcuts in one's own moral responsibility - I've been through all of this, and I say it remains a cheat. No matter how nicely one want to describe it. That I call myself the greatest cheater of all time ;-) , a bit of fun but also with a lot of serious thought behind it.
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“Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”
(J.R.R.T.)
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