The Pete Plan etc

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wojtek
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by wojtek »

spidermac wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:03 pm Woj agree with the guys above - 1min increase in 6months seems a big gap but I don`t know your rowing history - maybe you were a sub6 man!!!.
Cheers for the advice chaps,

I think it is a tall order, and honestly if I get close to 7 minutes I will be happy. Sub 7 would be great, but I know in the long term I should be able to get there. 6.40, would be a dream - but will be another goal later on down the line. Never been a sub 6 man, ever. I usually fall off the machine after max effort with my best ever being 7.04. I will cycle through the PP and just keep it going. I also want to put the base meters in, long rows and go from there. This is a long term plan for me, so I think I will start off conservative, so that I can see improvements.

Without reading through all the 301 pages of posts what is Paul´s opinion of the PP?

Thanks,

Wojtek
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Ian Bee »

My thoughts on the PP - worked through 5 or 6 cycles on the trot, and did get gradual improvement. Working from 7:40s to 7:10s average.

I'll mention the cube law as a matter of interest as I was just looking at my Fletcher wattage comparison, so look away if this is old news. An extra 20w of power pushes me down from 2:15 to 2:08, but it needs double that to get another 7s off (not really following the law I know, but averages being what they are). Main point is that the last few seconds from your target are going to be tough. Good luck though - it's definitely possible.

Today was more slow, low rates but at -3C it wasn't enjoyable:

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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by paulgould »

wojtek wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:13 pm
spidermac wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:03 pm Woj agree with the guys above - 1min increase in 6months seems a big gap but I don`t know your rowing history - maybe you were a sub6 man!!!.
Cheers for the advice chaps,

Without reading through all the 301 pages of posts what is Paul´s opinion of the PP?

Thanks,

Wojtek
Woj, I'm not sure that I am the Paul whose opiniom you are seeking, but here goes anyway :fsbgrin: .

Let me just point out that this is purely my opinion, and as I have never done the PP before, it's certainly not to be taken as the gospel :)

I am not a fan of the PP, or any other interval-based, periodised training plan for that matter.
I firmly believe that the greatest gains to be made, at our level of rowing, are by getting to the right weight, and building strength(or, if you want to use Iain's definition, muscular endurance).
I think the PP has it's place but really mainly for the more elite athlete who has the strength/endurance base and optimal weight already, and is looking for some fine tuning.

About 3 or 4 years ago at the age of 52 I re-discovered my love for the erg after at least 3 years of almost zero erging.
I spent about 4 months just doing strength training( DF 250-300, distances 5-15km).During this time I did no intervals or speedwork.
In the course of this training I did a 2k for the IRL( or the CTC) and recorded a 6:51, my second best 2k ever.

As I've said many times before, my training plans aren't for everybody, but they definitely work for me, and Woj, I believe you are in a similar position to where I was.
While I don't use target HR bands and SPM, I do use the ReRow fuction extensively to track improvement and to keep up the motivation.

WRT your sub-7 2k goal - I think it is unlikely at this stage, but as Wolfie very correctly pointed out, any big improvement by your 50th will indicate a success, whether it be a 6:55 or 7:20, and once you are able to take on board that you are in it for the long haul, you will definitely get to where you want to be.

If I am not the right Paul, then please ignore all of the above :D :D

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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

Don't disagree with anything you say Paul, just hope you are not impostor Paul :-)
Bottom line is that the PP works, but it can quickly grind you down mentally and physically if you let it.

I felt tired yesterday, so had a beer and cocktail (Negroni) and a day off :-)
Should be 4x2k day today, so ideal to slip in the 3x2k CTC (details there).
Happy with the result (1:49.4) so I'll plan for a steady day tomorrow and see if I can squeeze in a firm distance on Sat before next day off on Sun.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by wojtek »

Paul Gould,

You were the Paul I was thinking of. What does DF stand for? You are right, any improvement is a plus. Plus I have been off the machine since at least 2009 for a serious row. I think I sat on it in 2010 and 2011 once or twice but just couldn´t get back into it. Now, I am ready.

Question for Wolfie. Are you still in Brum?

I probably will not be travelling back from Colombia this year due to Covid etc etc., however, just wondering the next time I come back would you like to try the coffee that we produce at our farm in Colombia, from our 1000 or so trees? It is rather good, even if I say so myself!

Woj
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by paulgould »

wojtek wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:06 am Paul Gould,

You were the Paul I was thinking of. What does DF stand for? You are right, any improvement is a plus. Plus I have been off the machine since at least 2009 for a serious row. I think I sat on it in 2010 and 2011 once or twice but just couldn´t get back into it. Now, I am ready.

Question for Wolfie. Are you still in Brum?

I probably will not be travelling back from Colombia this year due to Covid etc etc., however, just wondering the next time I come back would you like to try the coffee that we produce at our farm in Colombia, from our 1000 or so trees? It is rather good, even if I say so myself!

Woj
DF is Drag Factor - often incorrectly referred to as the resistance - actually a measure of the deceleration of the flywheel, with the airflow into the cage controlled by the damper lever. A typical DF range on a clean machine is about 100-225.
You can increase this by removing the perforated mesh grille( the highest I've recorded is 390) but is generally not advised.
As to the correct DF to row at - this is a "controversial" topic that has been discussed to death on the various forums.
For my money there is no one wrong or right setting, and finding the one that suits you is a matter of experimentation.
Best of luck with your future training - you appear to have made a great start with the impressive weight loss =D> =D>

Time to hand this thread back to the Pete Marston groupies :fsbgrin: :fsbgrin:

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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

wojtek wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:06 am Question for Wolfie. Are you still in Brum?
I probably will not be travelling back from Colombia this year due to Covid etc etc., however, just wondering the next time I come back would you like to try the coffee that we produce at our farm in Colombia, from our 1000 or so trees? It is rather good, even if I say so myself!
Woj
We've moved just a little further south to Henley in Arden, but can get to Brum easily. Would be great to see you (and yes try the coffee of course 8) )
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by JonT »

A thoroughly enjoyable (yes really!) session for me today. I took this weeks Fitness Matters Workout of the Week and adapted it.

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I am still trying to get the measure of the power in my stroke after a lot of work on technique, so I decided to stick with 6x1500 r20 but to increase the stroke power each interval to get a feel for the difference I could make and also what “full gas” felt like, albeit at the end of the session.

I made the power increments pretty steady to start with and then ramped things up for the last two intervals.

For those who do not use ErgZone the small numbers under pace tell you how much faster/slower than the target you were for the interval.

Before you say it Iain, yes this does make my 2K time look soft Image

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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Jon that's a great session, really powerful in that last interval (>10 SPI). Not sure how this would equate to a 2k, probably would vary as people's power per stroke drops off at different rates as rating increases as well as 2ks done anything from R28 - R38. 2k PB should be on if you can get the rating up.

Only second day on the erg in 2 weeks. LSD 105' (Had a 2min break after 45') Trying to keep HR<75% (139). Before was doing this at 2:23, today 2:26.6 and HR regularly 1-2SPM high (136 average). Clearly lost a lot of base fitness in a short time (last pure LSD a month ago).

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

Going to need to use the Ergzone training thread 😄👮🏻‍♂️
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

Decided to take a break from skiing & do some erging. :D A PP session for a change. 4x2k mission for today. Knew I wasn`t going to match last times splits but wanted to finnish the session so decided to go a bit careful on first few rounds & see how I felt.
Last times - 1.54.0/28/161
Wup - 2k
Time Dist spm HR SPlit Prev
07:39.2 2000 28 153 01:54.8 (1.54.6)
07:38.5 2000 28 162 01:54.6 (1.54.3) - still feels controlled.
07:37.7 2000 28 163 01:54.4 (1.54.0) - starting to work hard
07:33.8 2000 30 165 01:53.4 (1.53.1) - all out few 1.40`s at the end!! :shock:
30:29.3 8000 28 160 01:54.3 (1.54.0)
CD - 2k
Happy with that as have done so few PP sessions this year. :D Hopefully new territory next time. A guide for the CTC later this month.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Nice session Spider, that last one must have been a struggle if a sprint got you less than 4S on previous rep! Bodes well for CTC, although not sure how they compare!

I did the Carole Mac challenge. Last year 1:56.3 R28.9. This year 1:52.3 R30.5 details on that thread). Disappointed that I didn't manage to rate up higher. Strong for first 750, but then legs got weaker and only managed to up rating 4 for last 150m. Followed up with 30', 7040 @ 22.3SPM, not amazing, but HR a 94% for much of it, so hopefully some training effect to start to reverse recent losses.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

I am sure a 94%HR will have some effect Iain!!! :lol: :lol: On the 4x2k I like to have the first 3 reps fairly close then give whats left on the last one rather than a big -ve split where only the last rep really challenges you!!
More power strokes today 5x4mins R90s in the rotation. I try to cycle thro these - 12x1minR45s; 7x3minR90s;5x4minR90s & 5x5minsR2min.
Last time - 1.53.0/26spm/161HR/5309m
Wup - 2k
Time DIst spm HR Split Prev
04:00.0 1040 23 156 01:55.3 (1.56.6) - 2min@22spm+2min@24spm; Drf - 172
04:00.0 1057 24 161 01:53.5 (1.54.2) - 2min@22spm+1min@24spm+1min@26; Drf - 172
04:00.0 1078 26 165 01:51.3 (1.51.6) - 2min@24spm+1min@26spm+1min@28; Drf - 172
04:00.0 1087 28 165 01:50.3 (1.50.8) - 1min ea @ 24/26/28/30; Drf - 172
04:00.0 1074 32 167 01:51.7 (1.51.7) - 1min ea @ 28/30/32/34; Drf 120
20:00.0 5337 26 162 01:52.4 (1.53.0)
CD - 2k
Hard sesssion, saw a 171HR briefly in R4. As usual last round a bit slower as legs destroyed!!! but important bit of the session is the 172drf rounds.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

Looks like hard work Spidey. But an excellent work out.
The forum police have had a word in my ear, any mention of skiing again, and you're barred! ;-)

Iain, 4s improvement 12 months later. Very good in anyone's books.

It's Monday, so PP session 1 for me, RND 2 Wk 3.
The lovely 4x1k/5r (1:45.4)
1 - 1:45.3 - ticked down on last stroke. Horrible rep
2 - 1:45.2 - missed the rolling start and it tool 19 strokes to get down to target :evil: I really don't like this session at all! Thoughts of stopping here.
3 - 1:45.1 - better, got the start and gently rolled up to target. Still really disliking the workout
4 - 1:44.2 - ouch. Very glad that is over.
Ave 1:45.0
So down to where I want to be... 8)
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

Don`t think there will be much skiing as the monsoon has set in!!! :( Good session Wolfie as that session is meant to be 2k+1 you need to stop making excuses & get that sub 7 2k done!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

I think it was Mike Caviston who said that done properly 4x1k is worse than a 2k, as such it is the best possible preparation! Great work out Steve, look forward to congratulating you on the sub-7 soon!
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

So following Wolfie - 4x1k today tho not quite as fast!!!!. :lol: Last did this in Nov & hurt my back on the last try in Jan so wasn`t sure what to expect - hoping to get close to novembers average. Last time - 1.48.7/32spm/166HR
Wup - 2k
Time dist spm HR split Prev
03:39.0 1000 31 160 01:49.5 (1.49.4) - feels okaish
03:38.1 1000 31 165 01:49.0 (1.49.1) - still OK
03:36.5 1000 33 165 01:48.2 (1.48.5) - NOT feeling ok!!! :shock:
03:35.1 1000 35 162 01:47.5 (1.48.0) - nice surprise but hard work!!!
14:28.7 4000 32 163 01:48.5 (1.48.7)
CD 2k
Happy to be back in +ve territory on the PP. :D I think the last split HR shows I have to get used to the higher spm to go faster.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Spider, nice improvement on the devil's own workout! Re SPM, I think PP always forces up our SPM as most people use temporarily maintainable increases in rating to drive the faster last and so the average is forever increasing. Re HRM reading, this is a spot value at the end. Personally I see +/- 4 or 5 SPM variations during a row without physical causes and so look at highest values that were sustained a more meaningful metric. I often see HR drop on my final sprint. Not sure whether this is the "Central regulator", my body accepting that it has gone anaerobic and so reducing the energy usage of CV system (rather like the significant delay after starting a short sprint (I have finished all out 100m at 75% HRmax only to see it shoot up in the following 15S after I slow down)) or possibly an effect of changing to 1 breath per stroke and so significantly less breaths per minute despite a faster stroke rate (say 64 breaths at 32SPM to 42 at 42SPM), again not sustainable, just a deliberate adjustment when going anaerobic. Either way it clearly isn't representative of the efficiency of my rowing! I think you need to try out a lower rate and higher rate strategy on the same session shortly after each other (consecutive weeks?) to find out. You have certainly gone through a wider range of ratings than any other experienced rower I have followed, most of us get a feel for when rating up is a good idea!
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

Thanks for the reply Iain. Yes I am not convinced by the accuracy of the HR reading, but think I will try to up the spm a wee bit on my next few PP sessions & see what happens. Also agree that psychologically I find I relax a bit when I know I am on the last rep which may also account for a low HR as it comes down fast after the last rep when u know its all over rather than the anticipation of another even harder rep! Re the breathing I always just stick with 1 breath a stroke can`t seem to get a rythm with 2 breaths a stroke. Re rating, people like EM talk about >26spm for 60mins & 36 or more for 2ks, 40+ for 1ks, so I think its neccessary to train at these rates some of the time if u want to use them in a TT.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

Something a bit longer today - 40min Lvl4. 184-196-200-184 sequence. Basing it on 1.46 pace ( hopefully less later in year)
Wup - 1k
Time Dist spm HR SPlit
10:00.0 2378 19 145 02:06.1 (+20m)
10:00.0 2425 20 145 02:03.7 (+16m)
10:00.0 2435 20 158 02:03.2 (+7m)
10:00.0 2355 19 154 02:07.3 (-3m)
40:00.0 9591 19 150 02:05.1 (+40m)
CD - 2k
Struggled a bit in the last segment to hold correct spm & splits. Next time will try lower sequences & go for longer.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Nice L4 Spider, you were still pretty close and I think the paces get tougher as the ratings increase (increased SPI). Did a session at lunchtime today. HR still a bit up, but managed nearly 6 hours sleep last night so not going to get better chance. Went for my bête noir online session, a lot harder (for me at least) than it looks. 6x(1:30,3:30 r0)r3'. Intended at 4x1k and 4x2k pace. Went for 1:55 and 1:59:

Time distn rate pace - comment
01:30.0 392 29 01:54.8 - struggled to settle
03:30.0 884 27 01:58.8 - last 2 mins already feeling tough, Max HR 94% already
01:30.0 392 30 01:54.8 - little better
03:30.0 884 27 01:58.8 - Shouldn't be this hard, 96% of max HR, had to finish faster to hit target
01:30.0 392 30 01:54.8 - Not liking this
00:26.6 112 28 01:54.9 - H/D HR already 94% and not halfway through set.

So second failure in a row. 900m at 2k interval pace should be achievable even at high HR, just have a mental block. Will try 2:00 pace next time and finish at whatever pace. Did 7 x 1' r1' to make up the session:

b]Tim distn rate pace - comment[/b]
01:00 275 34 01:49.1 - Not too bad, although 94% HRmax already only recovering to 77%
01:00 276 34 01:48.7 - Few weak strokes in middle, HR 95% recovering to 80%
01:00 276 35 01:48.7 - Bit more consistent, HR 94% recovering to 77%
01:00 278 36 01:47.9 - Poor start, HR hit 96% and recovered to 80%.
01:00 278 36 01:47.9 - Laboured breathing, struggling rating up, HR to 97% and recovered to 81%, thinking of cutting to 6
01:00 279 38 01:47.5 - Legs gone by 20S, shorter strokes and had to push at end HR 97% again, but only recovered to 83%
01:00 284 46 01:45.3 - Legs worse, barely averaged 1/2 slides, last 30S ugly HR only reached 96% probably because knew it was the last.
10:00 1947 37 1:47.9 - 3.8S quicker than 2 sets done 4 months ago and 1k - 1.1S so happy with that.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

Cheers Iain - want to extend the Lvl 4`s to 60 mins but will have to start at a much lower sequence. That looks like a painful session. :shock: What is the aim as it seems a good way to practice a fly & die!!! :lol: :lol: Good effort in rescuing the session with some sprints & an improvement.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

Spidey I reckon that 4x1k is quicker than I when age and weight adjusted :-)

Iain, stop messing with the prescribed sessions :wink:

PP RND 2 WK 3 - Waterfall
For some reason I approached this with some confidence.
However that was soon replaced by plenty of other thoughts along the way!!
Target ave from rnd 1 = 1:51.6
3000 - 1:51.4 (51.9) went for 51.5 and was bit concerned I'd overcooked it
2500 - 1:51.2 (51.7) again thought I'd overdone it and was worried about the final rep
2000 - 1:50.6 (51.0) that's it now, would rather do the 2k test than do that again!
ave = 1:51.1
So to acknowledge your earlier comments, time to schedule a 2k I reckon,
I have my first covid jab tomorrow (apparently I'm on a 55-60 priority list due to previous heart stuff. So Paul, if you are still reading, you should get a call. If not already) which will mean a couple of days off the erg I would think.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Spider, the idea is to extend a short interval effect for longer as the latter pace is too fast to allow any recovery, but shouldn't increase oxygen debt. I thought it was a good way of reproducing the effect of longer intervals in a shorter time. That said, found the 4x2k much more palatable.

Steve, great session. I'm usually surprised at how much easier the Waterfall is than I expect. Combination of 3k at about 6k pace being readily achievable and then just one interval before the last and feeling better than with the same amount to go in previous interval until quite late on when it is not worth giving up! That said, my final 2k is always significantly slower than on 4x2k. Either 4x1k or CTC next serious session, but may do a long slow as high HR suggests I am not 100%.
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Re: The Pete Plan (other training plans are available)

Post by JonT »

I wanted a hard "endurance" session today so opted for the PP 4x2k. As you can see I faded after the second interval, and to be honest was amazed I even started the last one. I felt exhausted and was so close to HD, but decided just to plough on and paddle gently through if required. I'm amazed that I managed that interval at almost the pace of the previous one. By the end of the session I was completely wasted and had definitely overdone it. I felt far worse than at the end of the CTC or the 2k-test from this week.

....which isn't surprising it turns out #-o

I gave myself a real beating up at the end of the session and then convinced myself that I was probably just overtraining a bit and should just let it go. But I had stupidly and blindly followed the PP recommended pace of 5K+0.5s without checking how I had paced similar sessions recently. The pace below is pretty close to the CTC from the start of the month [-X :lol:. To make matters worse it is 32 seconds faster than the last time I attempted this session. No wonder I was knackered!

This also tells me that the 5K that I did earlier this year was pretty special for me and the pace of it is not a good benchmark for pacing training sessions.

We live and learn, or in my case: barely survive and seem to learn very little :oops: :twisted:

Finally. thanks to all who contribute to this thread, I learn a great deal and take a lot of encouragement from it =D> =D> :fsbgrin: :fsbgrin:
Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M HR
31:03.5 8,000m 1:56.4 222 1062 28 180
7:45.1 2,000m 1:56.2 223 1066 28 171
r: 5:00 916m
7:44.2 2,000m 1:56.0 224 1070 28 183
r: 5:00 793m
7:47.0 2,000m 1:56.7 220 1056 29 183
r: 5:00 811m
7:47.2 2,000m 1:56.8 220 1055 30 185
r: 5:00 987m
r3,507m
54 years old, 5"10', clinging on to 75kg and frustratingly but understandably inconsistent
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