The Pete Plan etc

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Wolfmiester
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

More big gains Iain =D>
Nice one Spidey, 7500 is never a bad workout!
Kevin, to answer your question I think I've already referred to wanting a sub 7 2k before the end of the season, so that is my goal. I know I'm close, but not certain. So some focus will help nail it.
As well as the 3 main sessions per week I am also completing the 3 "steady rows", mostly on Zoom Erg (absolutely bloody excellent). Today was 2x30'/90s with Olympian Jess Edie. She's brilliant, and despite working always keeps talking and motivating during the piece. The 30' were a decent R20 for 6 min, then hard for 1' at R22/24/26/28 after each 6. Interesting! (x2)
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

Good consistency Wolfie - unlike myself!!!! :D
Today some speed work 10x1min on 1min off. Best last year was 1.42.5/33spm/164HR
Wup - 3k
Time Dist spm HR SPlit Prev
01:00.0 287 34 154 01:44.5 (1.44.5)
01:00.0 289 34 157 01:43.8 (1.44.1)
01:00.0 290 34 160 01:43.4 (1.43.8)
01:00.0 291 34 161 01:43.0 (1.43.4)
01:00.0 292 34 161 01:42.7 (1.42.7) - sub 1.43 feeling hard time to up spm. :D
01:00.0 293 35 156 01:42.3 (1.42.7)
01:00.0 294 36 153 01:42.0 (1.42.0)
01:00.0 296 36 164 01:41.3 (1.41.6)
01:00.0 297 36 166 01:41.0 (1.41.0)
01:00.0 301 41 160 01:39.6 (1.40.0) - blow the doors off!!!. :shock:
10:00.0 2929 35 159 01:42.4 (1.42.5)
CD - 2k
Very happy to beat last years time as really felt my sprinting/hi spm abilities were going down, tho felt like a lot of effort for a 0.1sec improvement. :shock: Last time was done at DRF 130, lowered it to 125 this time to allow higher spm - HR was a bit lower tho maybe I am just a bit fitter. #-o Last 2 wouts give me a bit of confidence going forward. Will try to get back on schedule with PP ivals ( Wolfie putting me to shame) & go for 5x1500 as next session.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

Wolfmiester wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:37 pm More big gains Iain =D>
Nice one Spidey, 7500 is never a bad workout!
Kevin, to answer your question I think I've already referred to wanting a sub 7 2k before the end of the season, so that is my goal. I know I'm close, but not certain. So some focus will help nail it.
As well as the 3 main sessions per week I am also completing the 3 "steady rows", mostly on Zoom Erg (absolutely bloody excellent). Today was 2x30'/90s with Olympian Jess Edie. She's brilliant, and despite working always keeps talking and motivating during the piece. The 30' were a decent R20 for 6 min, then hard for 1' at R22/24/26/28 after each 6. Interesting! (x2)
I'm sure with only a small taper down you'll be under 7 for sure 👍 that's only judging by the last 2 ctc pieces. You need to do your 1k time too 😉 loads of nonathlon points hanging on the low branches for you too pick 😂 sub 1:40 pace.

I'm at a crossroads. Either I knuckle down to improve my 5 & 10k with a cheeky marathon before the end of the season. Or head into strength work with tons of 70% stuff to build my aerobic base for 6 months ?? I'll be doing the CTC & IRL though. I've really enjoyed the friendly banter & encouragement.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Spider, 2 great sessions. I'd be over the moon going sub 2 for 30' let alone R20. 10x 1'r1' is a tough session as the lactate builds. great pacing to neg split the whole set. looks like you managed to do it with full strokes as well, I usually have to resort to flailing.

Wolfie, really enjoyed the session I did with Jess. 64' at R18, not the easy session it purported to be as I did it at much higher SPI than usual (and rarely go over R17 on LSDs).

Kevin, always a tough choice. Personally I haven't the patience to do only LSDs, so why not mix and do 1-2 faster sessions including the TTs and the rest LSD? Otherwise IRL/CTC will be tough to face!

My favourite interval session: 4kr4', 3kr3', 2kr2' 1k (part of the program Pete put together for the 10k) as I plan a 10k soon. Calf still sore from Thursday but didn't effect me rowing. Last did this 5 March (2:07.4 R22.8) - nice to look back at the progress. Did this session but with 5kr5' before as final prep for HM on 27/12. 2:04.5 on whole session, 2:03.2 R23.6 excluding the 5k. Recently I have done this 2S/500m quicker in subsequent intervals, but reverted to the 1S/500m Pete set with a 2:03 start (to match 10k target pace).

Time. Distanc SPM Pace - Comment
16:21.8 4,000 24 02:02.7 - Easier than expected
12:07.8 3,000 25 02:01.3 - Settled into faster rhythm, only brief moments of doubt
07:55.4 2,000 27 01:58.9 - Went for sub 8 and pushed on in second half
03:47.9 1,000 30 01:54.0 - Struggled to stay at 1:55, sprinted last 200.
40:12.9 10000 25.5 2:00.6 - Bodes well for 10k
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

Kevin, when I was "racing" I stayed on the interval training mainly. I found that it maintained a really good level of fitness anyway, so decent longer pieces were also possible (most of my pbs were 2010 after 3 years of focusing on 2k).
Bottom line is that it depends on your ultimate goal, if you want the best 2k time you can get, then its intervals. 6-10k, endurance and endurance intervals. HM and FM is LSD.
My one regret, if you can call it that, is not making the 16k hr, but I did probably exceed my 2k expectations, so you can't really have it all unless there is continued focus for one goal, then another. And I mean years...
You've reached a pretty good level now, so it sounds like what you are saying is that its time to choose the next goal? (which can be continue on the 2k trail...)
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

Thanks Iain & Steve for your replies 🙂

I suppose what I'm trying to work out is what way is best over the next 6 months. In my previous competitive events (field athlete & powerlifting) I had a winter/off season where I would do a 6 week conditioning phase (vomit provoking sessions) followed by a very tiring 8 week strength phase. During both these phases especially as a field athlete I would also maintain technical & speed features of my training but forsaking high level of performance from the discipline.
I have never done an endurance event before. So it's all new ground to me. Not to mention the age factor 😂 (it's just a number)

Strength traing wise. I only started back lifting proper weights (compound lifts) again in August 20. I dont see this as my weakness but increasing it further would help a 2k time especially. I think ?? Where were you strength wise Steve when you achieved your best times ?

Aerobic base. This element I'm sure is my weakest one.
I'm presuming the only way to truly test this would be either a HM or FM ?? my last HM test was at the end of August 20 😳 just before I started full training for the BRIC in September.

This is the basis of my questioning. What have you guys done in the off season that benefited you the most at the start of your racing season programme ??
It could even be find a race in March and shorten the off season to gain more time racing ??

I am genuinely interested in other people's experiences good & bad. Plus things that they regret not doing too.

I'm sure Steve that a 16k hour is still within your grasp too fella 👍 but that talk might be over a post pandemic pint 😉

Back to the PP......
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Although I took part in a few races a season for a few years, I was never really competitive so can't answer your question. In general fitness terms as we get older we all need to do some strength work or progressively lose muscle. Beyond that, strength does help the 2k, but is a small component compared to endurance, the effect will be much bigger at 500 and shorter events where a much larger element is anaerobic. Many people seem to continue for years without an "off" season, but some changes in the way you train are required to avoid a plateau, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how large a change is required, some just shift from 2k to 5k and back. You might get a more comprehensive response from the C2 Forum (see links).

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

I'd agree with Iain, its recommended to increase strength training as we get older (weights?), although I can't keep off the erg to allow time for other aspects at the moment.
Kevin I never really did any specific strength training, just lots of focused (Pete Plan) sessions. Saying that though, I was still visiting the gym and doing Body Pump and Spinning classes twice a week, with the occasional run thrown in.
I do remember how very noticeable it was that my fitness was very specific though. So although quite fit for mid forties, running anything other than a plod was a challenge and pull ups in the gym were well beyond reach. But the erg was no problem. So I think what I'm saying there is that there is plenty of scope for a mixed training regime if you have the time (certainly the full time rowers do plenty of gym/weights work, that's well known).
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

Thanks guys for the honest answers.

Interesting Steve that you did body pump & spin classes.
Iain have you lifted weights to compliment your erg workouts ?
The strength element of my training is a body in balance programme. More to prevent injury & maintain a base level.
But now I have a proper "off season" I have a chance to work on individual elements more.
I'm going to start sketching out a rough plan over the next couple of weeks. I've no doubt regular interval sessions will be in the mix my aim will be 2 each week. 3 core sessions a week have been very good and I will continue with them.
The rest is about time. I already have a vision of parking the erg infront of the TV and watching very early morning news for 90 minutes 🙈😂😂
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Kevin, I haven't done any weights for years. But do some body weight exercises (initially weekly, but somewhat less recently). I also do strength sessions on the erg. Somewhat controversial due to injury risk and require a substantial intense warm up. These involve close to maximum power strokes on very short intervals with a raised drag factor. So 100m at 10m/stroke (ie pull when M remaining ends in 0), 20 Sec at 30SPM (puling on even no of secs remaining) and 30 Sec at 24 SPM (pull on secs ending 0, 2/3, 5 & 7/8). Despite the force required, I have so far avoided injuries and feel they are safer than all out sprints as strokes are not rushed and lactate build up is reduced (compromises lead to more risk).

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Kevin, I haven't done any weights for years. But do some body weight exercises (initially weekly, but somewhat less recently). I also do strength sessions on the erg. Somewhat controversial due to injury risk and require a substantial intense warm up. These involve close to maximum power strokes on very short intervals with a raised drag factor. So 100m at 10m/stroke (ie pull when M remaining ends in 0), 20 Sec at 30SPM (puling on even no of secs remaining) and 30 Sec at 24 SPM (pull on secs ending 0, 2/3, 5 & 7/8). Despite the force required, I have so far avoided injuries and feel they are safer than all out sprints as strokes are not rushed and lactate build up is reduced (compromises lead to more risk).

These are recent inclusions in my program, but my stroke has become stronger (from a low base) and I have previously lost at least 3kg of lean body mass so needed to halt this and hopefully reverse it somewhat.

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by paulgould »

Iain wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:16 pm Kevin, I haven't done any weights for years. But do some body weight exercises (initially weekly, but somewhat less recently). I also do strength sessions on the erg. Somewhat controversial due to injury risk and require a substantial intense warm up. These involve close to maximum power strokes on very short intervals with a raised drag factor. So 100m at 10m/stroke (ie pull when M remaining ends in 0), 20 Sec at 30SPM (puling on even no of secs remaining) and 30 Sec at 24 SPM (pull on secs ending 0, 2/3, 5 & 7/8). Despite the force required, I have so far avoided injuries and feel they are safer than all out sprints as strokes are not rushed and lactate build up is reduced (compromises lead to more risk).

These are recent inclusions in my program, but my stroke has become stronger (from a low base) and I have previously lost at least 3kg of lean body mass so needed to halt this and hopefully reverse it somewhat.

- Iain
Kevin,
I don't normally post on this thread but am very interested in this discussion.
I have a slightly different take on all of this.
I think you need to differentiate between strength and raw power.
The drills that Iain is outlining are all about developing raw power, something that you need for 100m to 500m. Not a massive amount of use to you for anything further than that.
I consider strength to be all about muscular endurance and the ability to sustain a heavy workload without injury.
If you look at the top 2k ergers, they are all massively strong, but don't necessarily have the raw power to deadlift 250 kg for example.
I also believe that you can develop this strength on the erg and don't really need a supplementary weights program.
The way that I have found to be effective in developing this strength is to do long sessions on high DF and low SPM.
I set all of my PBs from 1k upwards(with the exception of the 2k which I didn't attempt) on the back of this training regime and have done about 20 million of my 38 million plus injury free metres on a DF of 200+.
I appreciate that my approach is not for everybody and probably goes against the accepted thinking, but I do know that it works for me and is suited to my body type(short and squat :D :twisted: ).

As Iain rightly pointed out, we are also getting to the age where it is important to retain as much of our muscle mass as possible, to prevent injury and recover quickly from training.

A lot also depends on what your actual goals - with the limitations imposed on me by my heart condition, I am not looking for fast times and PB's on the rower - I am just trying to get a strong body to alleviate the workload on my heart.
If you are looking at peaking for a particular event then a different approach(PP with targeted interval training) might be the answer.

Whatever the goal though, I believe it is vital to have a solid strength base to work from, and what I am proposing is a way to achieve that which I have found works.

Paul G
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200m - 30.8
300m - 47.7
30r20 - 7754m
12 hr - 139300m
100 mile - 14:10.12
200km - 18:28.30
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Paul, a question and an observation re your post:

Q) Do you think that my "raw power" workout is appropriate to substitute for a weights session to stave off muscle losses?

O) For me in my weakened state (Recent LP is only 1:32!) DF 120 at 16SPM is sufficient for significant upper body DOMS after 90 min sessions of my normal strokes. As such, while we might argue on terminology, I think these sessions have a similar effect on me as your core training. Do you agree?

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by paulgould »

Iain wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:03 pm Paul, a question and an observation re your post:

Q) Do you think that my "raw power" workout is appropriate to substitute for a weights session to stave off muscle losses?

O) For me in my weakened state (Recent LP is only 1:32!) DF 120 at 16SPM is sufficient for significant upper body DOMS after 90 min sessions of my normal strokes. As such, while we might argue on terminology, I think these sessions have a similar effect on me as your core training. Do you agree?

- Iain
Hi Iain

In answer to your first question I would say longer intervals(equivalent to higher reps), but as I am no weights expert I would defer to Kevin's opinion on that one.
The shorter intervals at high intensity may well help you improve your 100m and 300m time by making you more explosive, but without the supplementary heavy lifting, even that is debatable.

As to your second observation, yes I would pretty much agree - a large constituent of that strength-building strategy is the low SPM - I think the low SPM is more crucial than the high DF( I do have quite a strong upper-body and like the heavier resistance to push against hence the high DF) - if you have DOMS after your session then it is having the desired effect in my opinion.

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300m - 47.7
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12 hr - 139300m
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200km - 18:28.30
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

All very interesting (genuinely :-) ) but here's an actual session result :lol:
ROUND 2 - WK 1 DAY 1 - 8x500/3:30r
First time out was a +ve split 1:42.4
This time was easier to pace
1 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
2 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
3 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
4 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
5 - 1:42.2 (1:41.9)
6 - 1:42.1 (1:44.1)
7 - 1:42.0 (1:43.8 )
8 - 1:38.8 (1:42.0)
ave 1:41.8
More like a session of old, stick to pace then gradually ramp it up if possible, all out at the end. A bit surprised by the last one, next time will be tough!

(As a little side story, my fellow recent OTW novice James has sent me a pic today of his little 2k challenge. 6:59.8 R20 !! :shock: )
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

Wolfmiester wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:53 pm All very interesting (genuinely :-) ) but here's an actual session result :lol:
ROUND 2 - WK 1 DAY 1 - 8x500/3:30r
First time out was a +ve split 1:42.4
This time was easier to pace
1 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
2 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
3 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
4 - 1:42.3 (1:41.9)
5 - 1:42.2 (1:41.9)
6 - 1:42.1 (1:44.1)
7 - 1:42.0 (1:43.8 )
8 - 1:38.8 (1:42.0)
ave 1:41.8
More like a session of old, stick to pace then gradually ramp it up if possible. A bit surprised by the last one, next time will be tough!

(As a little side story, my fellow recent OTW novice James has sent me a pic today of his little 2k challenge. 6:59.8 R20 !! :shock: )
Great last 500 Steve 😎👍 stupid question how old is James ?? That's a great little challenge =D> =D>
I'll get back to the of topic post next 😂
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

Thank you Paul for your contribution. It is both very interesting & welcomed.

I completely understand your approach. Your using the DF of the erg as your resistance type training. Therefore building power/strength while on the erg. I liken that to "killing 2 birds with one stone". It is also probably very time effective.
Do you think if you had also followed a strength regime even in only two 6-8 weeks programmes ? You might have improved more Paul ?
The erg while good is such a specific movement & is not load bearing. It's the load bearing movements that gain the most mass & bone density. Iain your bodyweight sessions would come under load bearing 👍

I should come clean with my level of strength. My 1RM PBs are.
Bench press 190kg Back squat 275kg Deadlift 285kg these were all done 30 years ago @ 110-115kg bodyweight 😳😳
I did say me & Olympic bars were finished 😂 but because of muscle memory it hasn't taken long to get some back.
My Deadlift & back squat are around 200kg at the moment. Bench is around 130kg. The biggest word in your answer Paul was "power" that for me is the key.
When I lift heavyweights I'm doing them with speed (luckily I have the technique already) with relatively short recovery times.
I'm also doing some of the more dynamic lifts more associated with Olympic lifting such as pulls & pull cleans.

Absolutely fascinating discussion though. I'm so glad I was able to join in here. A great wealth of different experiences & coming at them from different angles 😎😎

Back to PP 👍
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

Kevinhorne44 wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:01 pm (As a little side story, my fellow recent OTW novice James has sent me a pic today of his little 2k challenge. 6:59.8 R20 !! :shock: )
Great last 500 Steve 😎👍 stupid question how old is James ?? That's a great little challenge =D> =D>
I'll get back to the of topic post next 😂
[/quote]
He's early/mid forties bud. As a long serving ex professional rugby player he's pretty strong!
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

That word "strong" again 🙂🙂
I've recently done a sub 7 at R26 but miles away for a R20. I would like to do 8k for a 30R20 soon ish though.

The PP 8 x 500 does it always have a 3.5 min recovery ?? All the 500 intervals I have done so far have only had 1 minute 😳
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

He says the 8k 30R20 was much harder (as I always found the free rate!)
Yes the PP is a standard 3:30 rest.
Ultimately, does it matter? Probably not. No doubt the times will be different, but as long as the training is consistent then the benefit should be the same. At least we know with 3:30 rest the pacing target is 2k -3. 1 min rest is a bit of an unknown.
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Iain »

Wolfmiester wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:06 amYes the PP is a standard 3:30 rest.
Ultimately, does it matter? Probably not. No doubt the times will be different, but as long as the training is consistent then the benefit should be the same. At least we know with 3:30 rest the pacing target is 2k -3. 1 min rest is a bit of an unknown.
Pete often used 3 min and thought it didn't make much difference. On the proviso that you use a 2k rate, he believed 2 min was about 2k pace, while with 1 min at 2k pace he thought only 6 could be done at 2k pace. The extra rest allows a considerably higher rating, Spider has managed astronomical ratings in the past for this session. The reason for the long rest is 2 fold, it allows you to get more comfortable with a higher rating as a transition for doing so on longer pieces (essential for me, when I started back 25SPM was a struggle to maintain!). The other reason is that it helps prepare for the latter stages of a 2k (or a shorter piece such as the Carole Mac challenge or the mile). So using shorter rests will possibly be marginally more beneficial for increasing your VO2 max (the main aim of the short intervals), you will lose the other points. Mike of WP fame (on which PP is based) used to stop doing 500s when getting close to races as his race rating didn't require more work and he did not use as substantial a sprint as Pete (who used to gain 5+m on most rowers of his pace in the last 300m).

PS work getting in the way of rowing, so I must get on so that I can hopefully get at least one session in during the working week!
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Re: The Pete Plan

Post by spidermac »

Some more lessons from the C2!!! :lol: HD on the 5x1500 yesterday trying to emulate my last session - bad idea. :evil: Decided to try again today but be MUCH more conservative to ensure a finnish, results below.
Wup - 2k
Time Dist Spm HR SPlit Prev
05:43.5 1500 28 157 01:54.5 (1.52.7)
05:42.0 1500 28 163 01:54.0 (1.52.5)
05:40.4 1500 29 163 01:53.4 (1.52.3)
05:39.2 1500 30 164 01:53.0 (1.52.1)
05:36.0 1500 32 161 01:52.0 (1.50.4)
28:21.1 7500 29 161 01:53.4 (1.52.0)
CD - 2k
Good bit off my last session. On reviewing my wout log I see I have only done 2 PP ival sessions in the last 2 months! :shock: Defo been slacking on these hard top end wouts & paying the price!!! Happy to set a target to get back on the horse.
Iain good luck fitting the rowing into your schedule. Wolfie well done keeping the thread on track!!!! =D>
Kevin - might as well give my 2pence worth. I think first thing is u need to determine your priority - weights/ short sprints / long distance? I am very guilty of wanting all the sweets in the sweet shop & still find it hard to prioritise training, however for me my climbing comes first, then skiing in the winter then ERG. My best times on the erg around 2010/11 when I was doing a lot of crossfit ( so also olymic lifts etc) & got down to sub 1.30 for 500m & tho my 10k/5k were OK they were not on a par with my shorter distances. If erging is a priority then I would only row ( finding the holy grail mix of intervals/distance/frequency that works for YOU is another matter!!). For distances 500m & below weights definitely help especially Olympic lifts; however for 1k & above I think just rowing is the way to go, maybe dial back the weights to injury prevention & maintenance. Feel free to ignore as everyone is different & have different commitments. :D
Born 1957 71kg;6`2"
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Kevinhorne44
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Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:34 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM5

Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

Only done 5 x 1500 twice before 🤢 not surprised by anyone HDing the session. Well done for digging in your heels 😎

Spider your right 👍 I'm searching for the Holy grail 🙂🙂 I cant comment any more on this thread 😉😜
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JonT
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2020
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2020
Posts: 1950
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:31 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK

The Pete Plan

Post by JonT »

A double training first for me today. I had a go at using Ergzone and I also did the Fitness Matters Workout of the Week.

For those of you who do regular structures workouts I highly recommend Ergzone. The ability to define and save workouts is a real time saver, and the display on your phone as you row gives you good feedback on how you are doing against rating and pace targets.

The results of the session are below.

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57 years old, 5"10', clinging on to 75kg and frustratingly but understandably inconsistent
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Wolfmiester
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2020
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2020
Posts: 4048
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:16 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5
Location: Henley in Arden, UK

Re: The Pete Plan

Post by Wolfmiester »

hi, Dilly Dumb-ass here! Managed to slice a chunk of a little finger off at lunch time on Tue. Thought it might be ok to row today, but other than long and slow there won't be any PP for a few days :-(
Thankfully we also have a treadmill so I stepped on there for a brisk walk for an hour. Well, it's raining outside!
Wolfie

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Age 59 Height 6'4" Weight 93k
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