Marathon Training.

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gregsmith01748
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Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:00 pm

Hi,

In a couple of weeks, I'm planning to start training for a long (~20 mile) open water event that takes place in July. I'm planning to use the Eddie Fletcher Training Plan, which is published on the Indoor Sport Services website. Here:

https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/downl ... _guide.pdf

I would thrilled if anyone would be interested in following the plan with me.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by CamiCrew » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:02 am

Gotta love a solid plan. Sounds cool. Is your target a solo event or a team?
-barbara

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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by plummy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:07 am

Not sure I've ever followed any sort of plan for an ultra-distance event. I tend to decide on a whim and the fact I have some spare time on a given day - maybe that's why I fail to finish as many as I do finish. I'm making a brief foray into shorter intervals ready for the English championships on Feb 5th so won't be able to join you at least for a while.

Good luck though...
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:43 pm

CamiCrew wrote:Gotta love a solid plan. Sounds cool. Is your target a solo event or a team?
I'll be doing it solo in my Alden Star. It's a very cool race, you row around Cape Ann in Massachusetts. The total distance is a bit over 20 miles, but because open water conditions can vary so much, the amount of time it takes can vary by more than an hour.

Here's the website: http://www.blackburnchallenge.com/BBC_Race_Course.html
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by CamiCrew » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:27 pm

Wow! Guess you've done it before? That's quite a race.
-barbara

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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:44 pm

No, this will be my first time.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by Tgtaylor » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:07 pm

WOW!!! That is some row you are going to take on, and on open water! Against wind tide and waves!! rather than the comfort of one’s own home or at a gym =D> ^O^ . Sound like you should be training for a 50K+ race rather than a mere marathon.

I have just quickly read the plan, and most of it seems solid, and is what I have learnt (usually the hard way) over the last couple of years. What it fails to mention is that some parts of the body need protection from friction/pressure soars (the longer the row, the more you will feel them!! And that has a big effect on performance). Also I was surprised it was done on time rather than distance, and the longest rows were only about half distance (I recon longer ones are great for learning thing like preparations needed, what’s going to hurt, pre-race nutrition, race nutrition and good anaerobic training).

This season I’m concentrating on endurance stuff, but I ‘m a bit like plummy I tend to do things as and when I can do them or feel like doing them. I was going to have another go at the marathon just after Xmas (as I’m sure I can do it faster) but injured my back planting some trees for my elderly neighbors on the 27th which was going to be the day I was going to do it :( . So now it’s a bit better and have eaten far too much since then, I know I will have to get back into shape before I try again (first semi-serious row tonight if all goes well). So yes I’m interested especially if it helps another free spirit. The only things is, I will have to alter the plan a bit to suit me, and I don’t know how long I will go with it before I give the marathon another go. The marathon I done late last year was at 75% of 2K power (calculated from my (2K PB)) which seems strange according to their figures.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by strider77 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:49 pm

Hi Greg

This is very exciting, Trevor has a lot of endurance experience recently having successsfuly completed a 100k row and is the current 60+ MWT British Record Holder for the Marathon so his suggestions and Plummys I imagine will be of great benefit.

I need a focus so please count me in.

I will do Test 1 on Sunday to establish my Max HR and current 2k time.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:31 pm

It will be great to have some company for this adventure. I had my first post-surgery row yesterday and it went quite well. My aerobic fitness is off a bit due to the 2 week layoff and a couple weeks before that when I was training around the injury, but the range of motion in my knee seems as good as before and I had no pain in the joint.

I'm planning on doing a few weeks of base aerobic work and pre-testing before starting the plan "for real" at the beginning of February. I hope that works for you guys. I am also making a spreadsheet to keep track of the sessions, which I can share on Google.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:36 am

Hi,

I spent some time looking at both the Eddie Fletcher Plan (https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/train ... n/download) and the online training guide on the indoor sport services website. https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/train ... thon_intro

The plans are quite different.
- The EF plan is time based. The ISS guide is time based
- The EF plan is 5 sessions a week. The ISS guide has 5 and 6 day options
- The EF plan is a 4 week cycle that is repeated 3 times for 12 total weeks. The ISS plan is 26 weeks and is based on unique 4 week mesocycles that have different areas of emphasis.
- The EF plan has 3 basic types of sessions
-- General endurance work at Marathon pace
-- sessions with mutiple 15 or 20 minute blocks broken up into contiguous sections at 5K pace and marathon pace
-- sessions with 3 or 4 pieces at 10K pace, Half Marathon Pace, and marathon pace with rests between
- The ISS plan has these types of sessions, but adds a weekly long row, and depending on the mesocycle it includes strength or power sessions
- The EF plan has a few very good endorsements from people that have used it. I don't folks who have used the ISS plan.

Looking them, I think the ISS plan might be a better fit for me. I like the idea of a weekly long row, and I like the longer duration of the plan and the build of the distance through the meso-cycles.

I welcome other views.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by Rodger » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:26 am

I had a 9 week stint with the EF Marathon Plan in 2015. For what it's worth I give you my impressions from that.

The plan has schedules for 3, 4 and 5 workouts per week. I chose 3 workouts per week. The 4-workouts plan repeats one of the earlier sessions. The 5-day workout plan is somewhat different. One of the more interesting sessions (to me) in the 3-workouts plan did not feature in the 5-day workout plan.

The EF plan places a strong emphasis on rowing wit HR caps: HR maxima and stroke rate prescriptions are absolute, the resulting pace is secondary.

The first week, supposedly an easy week, I was completely shattered and I could not reach my pace goals. So I redid that 'easy week' before jumping into the week 2 sessions and it was much better then. Clearly my body needed to adjust to these type of sessions.

I didn't have a goal of rowing a FM. I just wanted to improve my endurance. I enjoyed the workouts, there is a lot of variety. I lost motivation and quit the program when I noticed that after two months of doing these my results on longer rows like 10k had not improved. Because I liked the sessions I reused them later for a couple of weeks as my slow LSD rows (without any pace goals).
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by strider77 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:51 pm

Greg, well done on getting over the Op and really pleased that you can still row OK as I know you were worried whether you would be able to after the Op :D

I like the EF plan but am more than happy to include a long row once a week to fit in with your preferred option on the ISS plan.

I did Test 1 in Eddie's plan to establish an HR Max and 2k reference time yesterday.

5 x 4'/30" based on an estimated 7:12 for my current 2k pace and using his table

20'-4820-2:03.9-27
858-2:19.8-21-85 (Target pace 2:20.6)
911-2:11.7-24-113 (2:12.6)
962-2:06.0-24-124 (2:06.0)
996-2:00.4-27-140 (2:00.5)
1122-1:46.9-36-162 (Flat out !)

So my 2 reference points are HRMax 162 and 2k predicted time 7:07.6 rounded up to 7:08.0 on which I will base my times/rates.

I will try the first session tonight as a foot in the water which for me based on my times is 2 x 30 mins /3 ' rest at 2:11 or slower ( HR 120-130)
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by sander » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:08 am

Definitely you need to prepare for the open (salt) water and OTW related stuff. Blisters. Food. Navigation. Communication. Support team on the ground.
Special preparation for your boat, perhaps. I have only done the Elfstedentocht which is on lakes but we did prepare our boats for chop, etc.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by strider77 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:51 pm

Did not manage last night but did the first toe in the water session of the EF plan to see what it felt like at 6 am in the morning !

2 x 30' at Default marathon pace of 2:11-3 ' rest at HR 120-132

#1-30'-2:10.9-25-HR119
#2-30-2:11.3-25-HR129

I learned several things.

My recent 15k rows -I did 4 over 10 days over Christmas were all quicker than this but felt easier !!

The second 30' HR was quite a lot higher than the first so in a way the rest seems to be affecting me more than just rowing through for 60 mins.

I will do some more sessions before you are ready to press the start button I think Greg to get acclimatised to the different demands.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by zootMutant » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:09 pm

Greg and Alan -- looking forward to reading about your progress and any thoughts you may have.

I have managed only a few EF sessions over the years, as my fitness has never been up to the demand (my HR drift was always too high). :oops:

Best of luck to you both!

Cheers, :P
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by strider77 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:58 am

Thanks Zoot, hopefully Trevor will join us too and more of you committed long rowers, perhaps Sander ? :wink:

Greg when are you planning on starting-happy to use whatever plan you are-but the ISS link did not work for me !

If you can post a spreadsheet on Google I will follow that

Cheers
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by Tgtaylor » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:32 pm

I have just done my first semi hard row for a long time, as have had bad back, bad feet and a virus to cope with since xmas. Not 100% but I going to start next week, easy to start.
I have had a look at both plans now, and there are bits of both I like but neither are what I think I should be doing. For me the ISS plan has some faults
1- Not enough recovery time (might be OK if you’re in your twenties ) but I recon as you get older you need !! more time to recover (even if you don’t think you do).
2- No heart rate training (need good aerobic only workouts. Its where most of your power comes from.)

So decided only to do 3 work outs a week (with a forth optional) this is roughly what I have tried to do in the past, only this time it is more formalized. One could do 3-5 weeks with steady increase of the level then drop the level a bit, raising the level again over the next 3-5 weeks , stretching yourself a bit further each time. One could do 3-5 block like this.



Day 1-(medium-hard effort) Aerobic training.
Starting at UT1 lowest heart rate as your max. Distance 20K 5min rest max. then 5 x 300m 30sec rest. (keeping pace even as possible)
Increase heart rate(within UT1 band) distance and intervals as you progress.
You should do at least one of the distance you are aiming at (Marathon? 50K? not 100K) in the training (not too close to the end).

Day 2 Rest- (1 hour brisk walk would be good, but no hard training)

Day 3 (medium effort)interval training 7 x 2K 2min Rest (keeping pace even as possible)
Increase sets and reps.

Day 4 rest (1 hour brisk walk would be good, but no hard training)

Day5 (very hard effort) hard paced 5K- HM
Increase distance and pace.

Day 6 rest (1 hour brisk walk would be good, but no hard training)

Day 7 rest or the extra row here (maybe CTC) maybe cross training or weights)

For me Day one would be Wednesday. So the other main rows are on Friday and Sunday.

Comments please Greg, Alan, and anyone else who is interested.
I can formalize it more if you are interested.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:25 pm

Hi, Sorry for posting and then disappearing. Ive been dealing with a bit of a situation at work that has really reduced my available forum time. I've been experimenting with the Eddie Fletcher training sessions and I really like them. I've decided that I am going to do the EF 5 session a week plan, but I haven't decided on a firm start date. I have a lot of business travel coming up over the next few weeks, so I might not be fully in the swing of things until the latter part of February. Until then, I will probably fart around with the EF sessions and fine tune the start paces for them.

If you are interested in how my first attempts at the sessions went, here a link to them in my journal. They are in reverse chronological order.

https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/ ... -training/
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by strider77 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:50 pm

That looks good Trev, If it works for you and I know it does keep at it :wink:

Greg,

Very interesting stats , thanks for sharing.

I will dip in and out of the EF too between now and end of Feb and wait for you to start the gun, will go with the 5 sessions as well.

At the moment mainly doing 15k rows for the Virtual Challenge with the odd CTC or Indoor Rowers League session.

Sunday was 15k @2:08 I must wear my HR kit for all rows in future it would have been around 130-140 which is around 75% HRM for me

Lat night I only did 2 x 15' with 4 'rest from the EF plan instead of 4 reps as I was pushed for time-no warm up so first 6' felt hardish

3,647m 15:00.0 2:03.3 6' @ 5k pace-1:57.4/9' @ Marathon pace-2:07.7-r29
3,671m 15:00.0 2:02.5 6' @ 5k pace-1:57.8/9' @ Marathon pace 2:05.9-r30
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by zootMutant » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:56 pm

Looking forward to reading about your progress, guys! Cheers, :P
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:39 pm

Well, I've been a busy boy. Work has me running around like crazy, so my training has been a bit sporadic. I was traveling last week, so I lost a fair number of training days. I got home on last Friday morning on the redeye, and I've done 8 straight sessions since then.

My wife and i went away for the weekend and I brought my erg with me! (She wasn't amused)

I've setup a training schedule and been updating it with the actual training that I've been doing. It's on a google sheet. It's a faithful transciption of the EF plan into a day by day form that you can keep results in. Feel free to copy it for your own use.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I was struggling with the workouts until about mid week this week when something changed and all of the sudden, every thing feels easier. I have no idea why. it's like I got 10 watts stronger over night.

If you want to look at lots of weird graphs, they are all logged here: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

I'm starting to like the step down workouts. Those things are excrutiating.

Of course, the reason I have time to even type this update is that I am on a plane to Korea. :evil:

So much for the great progress, I don't think there is a single erg in the entire country. (cue the sad trombone sounds)
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by zootMutant » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:49 am

gregsmith01748 wrote:My wife and i went away for the weekend and I brought my erg with me! (She wasn't amused)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
gregsmith01748 wrote:Of course, the reason I have time to even type this update is that I am on a plane to Korea. :evil:
What? You're not taking your erg? :lol:
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:26 am

zootMutant wrote:
gregsmith01748 wrote:My wife and i went away for the weekend and I brought my erg with me! (She wasn't amused)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
gregsmith01748 wrote:Of course, the reason I have time to even type this update is that I am on a plane to Korea. :evil:
What? You're not taking your erg? :lol:
I hate checking luggage. :lol: Otherwise I might.
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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by strider77 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:11 pm

Greg,

I have taken a look at the SS.

I did say I would keep you company on your journey so I will try the 3 x 20' rest 2' tonight that was donw as yesterday's session and take up slightly out of sequence with Thursday, February 9th session tomorrow and then try to follow your plan.

I have had a heavy cold for 10-11 days so bear with me.

Not sure how to input my date on your SS so as not to duplicate your data but will work something out.

Cheers

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Re: Marathon Training.

Post by gregsmith01748 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:32 pm

I'll add a tab for you.
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