Aerobic gains?

[mr brightside]

Ay up. I know you folks do indoor rowing because you love it, but how would you rate it as a tool for VO2 Max gains?

After a couple of tester sessions a year or so ago with the help of a Pete Plan printout, i got the idea that it might be a bit of a golden egg with knee impact being zero or therabouts.

What is the best approach with the damper on the C2? Presumably the higher it is the less SPM you achieve for a given calorie burn in a given timeframe; that is to say all it does is increase the effort required to maintain a pace. Is it any more complicated than that? Going back to Pete Plan terminology what is the best damper setting for the 3 workouts (speed interval, endurance interval, long distance)??

Is it important to focus on hamstring stretches in the long term? It has occurred to me that tight hamstrings will impede your ability to maintain a neutral spine during certain phases of the stroke.

Just one last question, do any of you chaps suffer from any of the following as a result of indoor rowing...

Iliotibial Band Syndrome
Iliotibial Bursitis
Patella Maltracking
Patella Chondromalacia
Patella Tendonitis

Cheers.

[dr3do]

Hey mr brightside, I'm not a native speaker; but I hope my answer is still helpful for you.

Ay up. I know you folks do indoor rowing because you love it, but how would you rate it as a tool for VO2 Max gains?

Very good – depending on you training strategy/quality. Therefore I don't think it's better or worse tool than "other tools" (Running, Biking, SkiErging)

About VO2max I found this notable:

"The VO2max piece is likely the piece that fascinates most athletes, primarily due to the ones-upsmanship game that people want to play on who has a higher VO2Max value. Ultimately though, there's actually little that you can do to influence this number, as it's largely genetic. And in that same vein, while an untrained person would see immediate and sharp increases in VO2max over a short period, a well trained athlete won't. And in fact, the more that athlete trains – the less likely this number is to fluctuate. Effectively, you plateau from a VO2Max standpoint. After all, if you could keep training and increase the number – we'd see everyone with a VO2Max in the 90's, or beyond. Ultimately there are only a handful of people on this earth anywhere near that."

After a couple of tester sessions a year or so ago with the help of a Pete Plan printout, i got the idea that it might be a bit of a golden egg with knee impact being zero or therabouts.

With running I always had knee problems. Even on a crosstrainer I got some issues after longer sessions. Since OTE-rowing I have no issues with my knees at all.

What is the best approach with the damper on the C2? Presumably the higher it is the less SPM you achieve for a given calorie burn in a given timeframe; that is to say all it does is increase the effort required to maintain a pace. Is it any more complicated than that? Going back to Pete Plan terminology what is the best damper setting for the 3 workouts (speed interval, endurance interval, long distance)??

You already know this one?

I tried different Damper Settings and found now - it took me 4 month! – my sweet spot. In my opinion it's important to find the right resistance for the whole "muscle chain". If the resistance is too hard, the weakest part will exhaust very/too fast. If the resistance is too soft, you'll maybe can't find a smooth/balanced workflow and "overpush" some other parts. Also worth to consider is what type you are like… more "slow twitch", "fast twitch" or maybe "mixed type".

Is it important to focus on hamstring stretches in the long term? It has occurred to me that tight hamstrings will impede your ability to maintain a neutral spine during certain phases of the stroke.

I tend to tight hamstrings too and found activities like this useful/helpful.

[mr brightside]

Your english seems spot on to me, mate, in fact better than some Brits i've met TBH!

I have a lot of potential for high VO2 Max because i have abnormally large lungs, and outperformed most of my year at XC when i was at school. The problem is that Patella Maltracking tends to limit the amount of interval/speed endurance work i can do on my feet, and i've been unable to get back to full racing fitness for a number of years now. After around 4yrs of intensive rehab exercises and farting around i'm in a position to come back with all the right knowledge and healing on a continuous positive trend. I can plateau easily but need to train smart if i'm to keep on pushing.

That damper page is good reading, am i right in concluding that at races you guys can choose your own damper setting then if it makes so little difference to performance? I'm prone to disc irritations so am i looking at 5-8ish??

Also does anyone know which of the quads muscles indoor rowing biases towards the most? With cycling it's Vastus Lateralis, but with uphill running it's Vastus Medialis.

[dr3do]

Your english seems spot on to me, mate, in fact better than some Brits i've met TBH!

Puuuh… glad you could understand (more or less) everything I wrote. I (always) think that for an native speaker I could "sound" not that polite… but it's just my language limitation - lack of "filler words and phrases".

I have a lot of potential for high VO2 Max because i have abnormally large lungs, and outperformed most of my year at XC when i was at school. The problem is that Patella Maltracking tends to limit the amount of interval/speed endurance work i can do on my feet, and i've been unable to get back to full racing fitness for a number of years now.

Between the lines - no intend to offend you in any way! - I read, that you maybe could have lost your basic fitness (means: high aerobic capacity; relative high output at low levels)? Maybe you wanna read this article, which user @stelph gladly posted.

After around 4yrs of intensive rehab exercises and farting around i'm in a position to come back with all the right knowledge and healing on a continuous positive trend. I can plateau easily but need to train smart if i'm to keep on pushing.

Sounds good, that you could let the rehab part behind you! =D> Would recommend to start "slowly" and first regain a solid base… which takes some month (depending of you training amount, the level of smart training, it takes 3-8 month for a not too bad base).

That damper page is good reading, am i right in concluding that at races you guys can choose your own damper setting then if it makes so little difference to performance?

As I have no race experience, I can't say too much there. What I know is, that you can always set up the damper - before race starts - to your needs. The number (on the housing) will differ from device to device. But the C2-Rowers are self calibrating and show the drag factor (abbreviation: DF) within the computer.

I'm prone to disc irritations so am i looking at 5-8ish??

Most people, what I read, try to avoid high DF due to back problems. But, there's also the opposite… people getting back pain from low DF, but not with high DF. Long story, short: You really have to figure it out by yourself. I would recommend to start with a low DF.

Also does anyone know which of the quads muscles indoor rowing biases towards the most? With cycling it's Vastus Lateralis, but with uphill running it's Vastus Medialis.

From my observation (my own legs) it depends a little bit on the foot position and how I engage my legs during the drive… I would say it's Rectus Femoris, Vastus Medialis and Vastus Lateralis.

[hewitt]

Hi Mr Brightside. One of the things you said really struck home to me.

"Is it important to focus on hamstring stretches in the long term? It has occurred to me that tight hamstrings will impede your ability to maintain a neutral spine during certain phases of the stroke".


I used to struggle at least once a year with a bad back due to rowing and sprint intervals, but now that I have sold my home rower and use the gym rower combined with the weights for all over body and mor importantly "hamstring" exercises I do not seem to be suffering with the tight or sore back during sprints. Interesting observation from you I had never really noticed before I started weights.

[mr brightside]

Hi Mr Brightside. One of the things you said really struck home to me.

"Is it important to focus on hamstring stretches in the long term? It has occurred to me that tight hamstrings will impede your ability to maintain a neutral spine during certain phases of the stroke".


I used to struggle at least once a year with a bad back due to rowing and sprint intervals, but now that I have sold my home rower and use the gym rower combined with the weights for all over body and mor importantly "hamstring" exercises I do not seem to be suffering with the tight or sore back during sprints. Interesting observation from you I had never really noticed before I started weights.

I have a 30min stretching program that i do every day, and it includes hammys. When my back flares up i really notice not being able to get hold of my feet.

Do you race Hewitt? I'm interested to know if they let you choose your own damper setting.

I've noticed this board has no 'injuries' section, this is good news- an auspicious start!

[mr brightside]

Between the lines - no intend to offend you in any way! - I read, that you maybe could have lost your basic fitness (means: high aerobic capacity; relative high output at low levels)? Maybe you wanna read this article, which user @stelph gladly posted.

None taken mate. Interesting bullet points in the post, thought as much- 84% aerobic. I probably won't be able to work my legs hard enough to outstrip lactate threshold training i can do on my feet, but the aerobic side is clearly worth a shot and i hope as my recovery continues i can hit it really hard. It takes years of solid commitment to work your aerobic fitness up, muscle conditioning is easy by comparison, but if you train really hard you'll have an edge over other competitors that you gained for very little joint wear in the case of rowing; that's what i suspect the case to be anyway.

[hewitt]

I have a 30min stretching program that i do every day, and it includes hammys. When my back flares up i really notice not being able to get hold of my feet.

Do you race Hewitt? I'm interested to know if they let you choose your own damper setting.

I've noticed this board has no 'injuries' section, this is good news- an auspicious start!

I normally stretch after each rowing section as a precation against sciatica but the stiff feeling I used to get in my left hammy has all gone due to regular weight training.

Yes I do races, and won a few medals for the Freespirits. You do get to choose your own damper setting or as WE like to call it "drag factor". On race softwear the drag factor is displayed on the monitor when you get the 5min to get ready on the race mchine before the off. 3-4 strokes and then move the damper arm up or down to your desired drag.
While you race you also get to see 3 names on your monitor. The guy who is leading the race and the guy in front of you and the guy just behind you and how many meters away from you they are in the race.

If you look further down the thread there is a whole section just called INJURIES.

[mr brightside]

Yes I do races, and won a few medals for the Freespirits. You do get to choose your own damper setting or as WE like to call it "drag factor". On race softwear the drag factor is displayed on the monitor when you get the 5min to get ready on the race mchine before the off. 3-4 strokes and then move the damper arm up or down to your desired drag.
While you race you also get to see 3 names on your monitor. The guy who is leading the race and the guy in front of you and the guy just behind you and how many meters away from you they are in the race.

If you look further down the thread there is a whole section just called INJURIES.

That's more information than i thought they might give you, it looks like it's a lot more computerised and interactive than i thought. I fell run/race and you don't tend to have much idea at all of where you are unless you count runners in front of you before everyone hits the cloudbase. Most people like their own routes and lines between checkpoints too, so you can have people constantly dropping in and out of view. You say you've won medals? It's common to win beer and cake at a lot of fell races!

Once my arms are not crying for mercy i'm going to try some more explosive strokes on a lower damper setting, see if i can find this sweet spot you guys look for. Also i weigh 65kg, am 35yo, and 5'10 tall...does this put me in a category of some kind with times i should be aiming at in training?

[gregsmith01748]

To get an idea of times, take a look on the concept2 online logbook. At the top there is a "Rankings" button. You can select lightweight, 30-39 and the distance to see how fast the fastest guys go.

Generally elite rowers do not rank their times, but many of the best masters rowers do.

Here's the top few entries for the 30-39 lwt for 2ks.



It's is very fun to rank distances and watch as you improve..

[hewitt]

Mr Brightside. You seem to have a bad technique issue if your arms are aching. Rowing is 80% legs. You should look at a few technique videoes on you-tube. My arms never ache even when I row sprints. Just remember that legs are bigger than arms unless you are a Silverback. Use the legs.

[dr3do]

You should look at a few technique videoes on you-tube.

I found this one here helpful…

[mr brightside]

Mr Brightside. You seem to have a bad technique issue if your arms are aching. Rowing is 80% legs. You should look at a few technique videoes on you-tube. My arms never ache even when I row sprints. Just remember that legs are bigger than arms unless you are a Silverback. Use the legs.

80% legs? I'm feeling it 80% arms. I'm going to have to review my technique a bit, some of those drills in the vid look like good warm up exercises to me. It always love it how things turn out to be far more complicated and technique based than you'd ever imagined; it reminds me of the time i tried to learn to swim freestyle the proper way instead of just cartwheeling away, i stick to breaststroke now.

The condition of my legs is pretty good because i do so much hill work either on the bike or on foot, this might be why i don't feel anything in my legs, however looking at that vid i think my arm pull begins right at the catch and is fully overlapping my legs. I'm also starting at about 2 in the afternoon and the handle regularly touches the fan casing. I probably won't get much leg benefit out of it tbh, but getting this technique thing right will stop me injuring my back which is a big risk.

Edit- Oh yeah, and why does my backside sting so much when i'm rowing?

[dr3do]

Edit- Oh yeah, and why does my backside sting so much when i'm rowing?

Where exactly? During exercise or afterwards? Do you do any "counterweight exercises" (e.g. jack knifes)?

[Rodger]

Edit- Oh yeah, and why does my backside sting so much when i'm rowing?

Sounds like a rowing technique problem as well!

Maybe you are bending forward too much at the catch, resulting in pulling with the back instead of the legs. Or you could be swinging your upper body backwards too early, that is, when your legs haven't finished the drive yet. Or you may be leaning back too heavily at the end of the drive.

While I appreciate that many ergers do all kind of exercises to strengthen different kind of muscles or get more flexible, I think that when you row correctly technique-wise, none of these extra exercises should be necessary really to stay free of injury, unless you intend to wring every possible second from your rowing times. Or am I wrong there?

[dr3do]

While I appreciate that many ergers do all kind of exercises to strengthen different kind of muscles or get more flexible, I think that when you row correctly technique-wise, none of these extra exercises should be necessary really to stay free of injury, unless you intend to wring every possible second from your rowing times. Or am I wrong there?

In my opinion your are mostly right. With good/perfect technique, there's like no injury/pain - especially compared to other sports.

But… as rowing/erging is not a 100% balanced full body exercise, depending on the amount of spent time while rowing and with considering that nobody has a perfect balanced body (we all have our weakness/misbalances) for me it's clear that some sort of equalizer training is useful/helpful.

So… with the concentration on perfect technique (how many years it takes to be become nearly perfect?) we can reduce the amount/need for equalizer training.

[Rodger]

While I appreciate that many ergers do all kind of exercises to strengthen different kind of muscles or get more flexible, I think that when you row correctly technique-wise, none of these extra exercises should be necessary really to stay free of injury, unless you intend to wring every possible second from your rowing times. Or am I wrong there?

In my opinion your are mostly right. With good/perfect technique, there's like no injury/pain - especially compared to other sports.

But… as rowing/erging is not a 100% balanced full body exercise, depending on the amount of spent time while rowing and with considering that nobody has a perfect balanced body (we all have our weakness/misbalances) for me it's clear that some sort of equalizer training is useful/helpful.

So… with the concentration on perfect technique (how many years it takes to be become nearly perfect?) we can reduce the amount/need for equalizer training.

I don't think the technique needs to be absolutely perfect to avoid injuries. You just need to not make blatant mistakes or overdo it. Of course, people who put a lot of training hours in, as serious/elite athletes do, are more susceptible to injuries as they are pushing their body to the limits. But I think those kind of pains or injuries are not what mr.brightside is referring to.

As I understand it, rowing is catering to way more muscle groups than most sports already. Yet I very rarely hear of recreational tennis players or joggers who do weights or gymnastic exercises to counterbalance the over-usage of certain muscles in their sport (apart from the stretching exercises that may be part of their warming-up/cooling down routine).

[mr brightside]

Edit- Oh yeah, and why does my backside sting so much when i'm rowing?

Where exactly? During exercise or afterwards? Do you do any "counterweight exercises" (e.g. jack knifes)?

You've got the wrong end of the stick. When i say backside i mean my arse/bottom/derriere, i wasn't sure what the line was on mild or coarse language on here so opted for the least offensive term i could think of. My bum pain seems to come from the area right around what is known as the 'sitting bones'. I have very good glutes recruitment and stopped relying autonomously on hamstrings ages ago due to lots of pilates and stuff.

[mr brightside]

I don't think the technique needs to be absolutely perfect to avoid injuries. You just need to not make blatant mistakes or overdo it.

I think that's good advice on the whole. This rowing session i'm introducing is only the second training session in a week, a midweek session. I've done my Achilles Bursa so i'm cycling on the weekends, but hope to be back running sometime around March.

Nobody seems to have come forward with any tales of woe surrounding any chronic knee condition they may have so i might be onto a winner. Last time i tried it, it caused a lot of cartilage soreness on the back on my kneecaps and i was unable to control it with Leukotape; however the injury is trending towards one day getting better, but at the current rate this will end up being some time in 2016 i think. If anything it's a sorry lesson on what happens to you if you ignore a connective tissue problem and hope it will go away! I've battled through it without arthroscopy though, that should always be your last resort.

[dr3do]

You've got the wrong end of the stick. When i say backside i mean my arse/bottom/derriere, i wasn't sure what the line was on mild or coarse language on here so opted for the least offensive term i could think of. My bum pain seems to come from the area right around what is known as the 'sitting bones'. I have very good glutes recruitment and stopped relying autonomously on hamstrings ages ago due to lots of pilates and stuff.

Haha! Arse/Bum I understand way better.

About your problem… some users have issues with the hard seat; I personally don't have any issues with it. Those users take this one. For you maybe worth to consider.

[mr brightside]

Seat pad, nice. I might try it with cycling shorts first, only problem is the gym at work is full of growling weight lifters so i'll have to get ready for their predictably tedious comments

[dr3do]

Seat pad, nice. I might try it with cycling shorts first, only problem is the gym at work is full of growling weight lifters so i'll have to get ready for their predictably tedious comments

[kirbyt]

Mr. Brightside, you mentioned that you are regularly touching the fancage with the handle. I'd say you are definitely over reaching at the catch. I am very similar in length to you, with long arms for my height, and I never touch the fancage. Something I found quite useful when I first started was rowing strapless--that is, feet on top of the straps or simply straps very loose. It feels quite unnatural in the beginning but it forces you to keep your stroke controlled and smooth. I would be amazed if you could touch the fancage strapless.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mr brightside]

I did 5k tonight using the proper technique as set out in the vids. I used to row around 26-28spm, but now i'm down to 22-24 and pretty much pulling my bag out over 5k to maintain this. My arms are killing me most of the time and that pain in my arse isn't the seat, it's one of the glutes muscles or hamstrings screaming for mercy. I can just about feel something going on in my legs but my workrate is basically reined in my the burning in my arms. Early days i guess, thanks for the tips and stuff.

[dr3do]

Hey Mr. Brightside

Early days i guess.

Possible. I remember it still quite good, as I started ~5 month ago. Pulled way too much with arms, my lat and my back. Long(er) distance was really hard/bad. Got quite sore. It takes time and quite a lot of effort to work on technique.

Maybe, if you like, you could post a video of you while rowing. Here in this board there are very good rowers - me not! – who could you give some good advice, I think. I'm thinking for myself to take the plunge a do a small smartphone vid and ask for some technique critique.