over training or what's the issue?

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Paul Victory
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Paul Victory »

Very strong session Dan and welcome back Ron. It's tough getting back into it after a break but it sounds like you're on the way back.

I think I may be suffering from overtraining. I've done just over 260k in the last 22 days and I'm finding it more and more of a struggle to keep going at any kind of pace. I did the CTC on Saturday to put down a marker, but was somewhat slower than I thought I would be at just over 1:53 pace. Yesterday, I HDed after just over 5 minutes into the first interval on my second attempt. I decided to have another go today, promising myself that I wouldn't HD mid-interval.

It was another real struggle and I just felt really sluggish and couldn't get any kind of decent rhythm going. I struggled home with 2354m @ 1:54.6 pace and decided to see if I could improve on this in the second interval. Unfortunately, that felt even worse and I just about managed to get over 2300m. I decided to call it a day at that stage and didn't even do my customary cool down. First time in over five weeks that I have finished a session with less than 10k done for the day.

Not sure what to do next. Maybe take a couple of days off or trying doing some alternative form of exercise for a change. But the problem seems to be general fatigue rather than aches and pains, so not sure a change will help.

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Caratacus »

Paul, I think you just need a rest, seems like maybe just too many meters rowed :-k Try giving yourself a break every other day for a while and you might find your mojo again [-o<
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by dr3do »

Paul Victory wrote:I'm finding it more and more of a struggle to keep going at any kind of pace [...] Yesterday, I HDed after just over 5 minutes into the first interval [...] It was another real struggle and I just felt really sluggish and couldn't get any kind of decent rhythm going. [...] First time in over five weeks that I have finished a session with less than 10k done for the day. [...] But the problem seems to be general fatigue.
Sounds bad, Paul. :?
Paul Victory wrote:Not sure what to do next.
From other posts I know that you're not following a structured training - I'll think it's time for more structure. :roll: Further, from what I've read (in different of your posts), I think you'll pace often too fast for too long and/or too many sessions.

I would suggest… reduce your training load significantly for 4 weeks, but improve your recovery (be more aware what does increase your recovery, drink and eat healthier, sleep more (or change habits for better sleep), listen to you body, get your wanna-row-faster-daemons under control :roll:). Do more (longer) low intensity workouts and only some few high intensity workouts. Recovery rowing/sessions are fine too and nothing to feel ashamed for.

In the "lactate based training thread" some good informations about "LOW-HIGH training principle" have been posted (by different free spirits)… dig out these informations and try to set up a structured training for you.

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Paul Victory »

Thanks for your comments Felton and Boris. I think you're both right that I need to cut back a bit and Boris, I agree that I need to take a more structured approach and to do it on a holistic basis taking everything into account - diet, sleep, rest, alcohol consumption, etc.

I'm closing in on 1 million meters for the season and I'd kinda like to get there before taking a breather. But I know that's a prime example of skewed priorities and I will hopefully be sensible enough to follow the good advice I've been given.

Then again, I might wake up tomorrow feeling great and decide to do an FM. :lol: #-o

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Juergie »

Paul, I feel the urge to add my comments because I can relate to you very much.

I have the same "symptoms", feeling exhausted and tired. And I have been thinking a lot lately how to change that. But I haven't come up with a good solution so far. Here are some (random) thoughts:

I have the feeling that it depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to improve all the time, you're running the risk of pushing to hard or being disappointed if you don't reach your goals.

Keep in mind, we are not 20 anymore. Our bodies still have room for some improvement. But we can't push it like we did many years ago. The older you get, the more time you need to recover.

Competition is good, because it keeps motivating you. Wanting to improve all the time compulsively is very bad. Why not be proud of what we achieve and maybe improvement will come on its own.

As I said, just some random thoughts going through my mind lately. Maybe changing our body starts with changing our attitude.

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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Rodger »

Paul, if I had to give just one quick piece of advise, it would be: let go of the meterboard as a goal.
It messes up other, more important things, like structure and rest.
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by danfennell »

Paul I rarely give advice as I kind of believe in the saying - Wise men don't need it and fools won't heed it. :lol:

Rather I'll share what changes I've made and how I think they've benefited me (and only me). These are just my personal training observations.

1. Less concerned with the meterboard. Reasonable WU, workout and CD. No fixation with any daily, weekly, averages or totals.

2. Train more intuitively (ie. listen to my body) No more hard day/easy pattern no matter what. Just doesn't make sense or seem to work for me. Why train easy when you feel great just because it's on your weekly schedule (or visa versa)?

3. More intervals and less long steady endurance rows especially in the summer when heat/humidity really take a toll on these type of rows. Fluid loss and heat just jack your HR up and defeat the purpose.

4. Less TT's. I think these take a greater toll than we realize.

5. Mix things up to keep it fresh. Variable interval is my favorite button. Adjust distances, times, rests and stroke rates just a bit to take the pressure off.

6. I work a 24 on/72 off schedule with no rower at work so I have no choice but to take a rest every 4th day. Think that helps. When I'm on vacation I often don't have the discipline (or good sense) to rest and can start to get burned out.

7. We experience normal physical and mental ebbs and flows and riding (not fighting) the waves is key.

Hope your rowing mojo - rojo returns. :D
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by strider77 »

Some really great advice here Dan, I think I will borrow some of it :wink:
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Paul Victory »

Thanks folks. I took yesterday off rowing and I also started keeping a food and exercise diary. One of my problems recently has been eating too much (in particular too much "junk") and drinking too much wine. By keeping track of what I'm doing, it will at least make me think before I eat another biscuit or drink another glass of wine. I think it slowed down my consumption a bit yesterday and hopefully will lead to the establishment of new good habits to replace the old bad ones. I walked about 9km yesterday just to get some exercise in, but spread over the day and nothing too brisk.

I'm going to try to avoid fixating on the meter board, but I know I will struggle to wean myself off it. I definitely need to stop worrying about pace on my recovery rows. I was trying to keep everything below 2:00 pace. Now I have eased back a bit, but still freak out if my average pace goes above 2:05 and start rowing harder. Again, this is an area where I will need to train myself to develop new habits. I think using my HRM whenever I row should help. I had got out of the habit of using it.

Dan, your progress over the last year or so has been amazing. I found that the structure of the Pete Plan worked really well for me when I was becoming fitter in early to mid 2014. But my best results (and new PBs) were all set earlier this year when I more or less did what you're suggesting - listen to my body and adapt my day's session accordingly. But that was starting from a point where I was in pretty good shape and maybe I need to follow something structured to get there and then adopt a more ad hoc approach thereafter.

I'm busy this afternoon, so I will be hopping on the erg a bit earlier than usual today. It will be interesting to see how I feel after a relatively restful day yesterday. I'm not going to push too hard, but if I'm feeling good, I might have a go at improving my CTC score.

Thanks again for all the helpful comments.

Paul V
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Re: what training have free spirits been doing today?

Post by Rodger »

strider77 wrote:Some really great advice here Dan, I think I will borrow some of it :wink:
Not a fool nor a wise man, then? :lol:
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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by Liefcat »

Partly agreed with Plummy that it was a little off topic on the What-Training thread - but then again I don´t like the concept of a Forum Police...

You have received a lot of good advice, or at least well-meant, advice, Paul.

The structure and discipline "thing": Yes, I think I understand what they are referring to, it just doesn´t go along very well with your psychology - you will end up using a lot of energy on not to "do-the-things-you´re-told", so we´re sort of in the reverse psychology section here - if that makes any sense :?: :wink: :wink: The word Dan used - "intuition" will suit you a lot better - and as you say you have some your best results following that philosophy.

The Meter Board "thing": Yes, I also remember a couple of years ago you were complaining of a possible overtraining. And my advice as I remember it back then was to choose if you want to do a lot of TTs or do a whole lot of meters. And as I remember it you more or less continued in the same way you already did - and with a great deal of success. I don´t think I´m the only one who wonders why you want to be on so many "platforms" on the same time: Meter Board, CTCs, Challenge Series, Nonathlon, Irish Records, Indoor Rowing Championships, Weight Loss and you name it... And at the same time you want to travel, eat a lot of food and drink a lot of wine... A more standard approach would of course be to focus on specific goals, but you seem to be motivated by going after it all... :wink: So just do what works well for you - and of course keep on experimenting... :fswink:
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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by Paul Victory »

Thanks Erik. I appreciate all the advice I've been given. It's all helpful and there is a lot of overlap in what people are saying, which doesn't necessarily prove that what people are saying is correct, but it certainly increases the likelihood that it's good advice.

Trying reverse psychology on me is not necessary. I judge the advice on its merits and if I don't always follow it, it doesn't necessarily mean that I don't agree with it! What's more likely is that I know that the advice is good and that I ought to follow it, but I'm either too weak-willed or too easily distracted or I'm obsessively following multiple goals.

And yes, you've hit the nail on the head that I'm trying to do too many things at the same time and these things are not always mutually compatible. Certainly, my love affair with the grape is a serious negative influence on my rowing results, but I'm not sure that's a price I'm willing to pay in order to get faster. Maybe a bit more moderation might help, though. :roll: :lol:

And being more focused on which goals are most important would also help. I think I did this reasonably well last season when I focused on improving my times over the various nonathlon distances over the last few months of the season and managed to set a few PBs in the process.

Lots of food for thought there...

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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by Juergie »

If you tell yourself just to drink less, every glass will weigh heavy on your mind.

Instead, you can have your guilty pleasures. That is not the problem. The difficult thing is not to indulge too often. Allow yourself a fixed amount of wine, let's say per week. And then it is ok for you to enjoy it. No bad conscience.

I find this approach approach more rewarding and easier to follow. Maybe this will work for you, too?

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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by gregsmith01748 »

Paul: I won't presume to give you any advice since I think you you're already achieving at a much higher level than I ever could.

I can readily identify with the struggle that you seem to be feeling. I tend toward over training, and I also have trouble with over indulgence. In my case, I seem to be able to eat enough to always be a bit overweight, no matter how hard I train. I have also gotten well meaning advice to "just modify my diet" which I know is right but is very difficult for me to implement. When I do focus on it, I become very bad company. My wife rightly calls me obsessive and tells me to chill out.

You have to live your whole life. Rowing is a very positive part of it for me, but it can make me miserable if I don't draw boundaries around it. To do that I have found that I need to identify the thing I want most, and organize around that single thing. Right now, it is avoiding humiliation in my first Head of the Charles race. Anything that doesn't help me achieve that goal, gets pushed aside. That means that I get bummed out when I don't get an result in for the CTC, and watch my meterboard ranking drop and drop as I do only on the water meters, but because I really want to achieve my goal, I can handle that.

So, I guess I'd ask you...What is your single most important goal right now? Figure that out first. If you want to get that bad enough, you'll be able to make the other choices much easier.
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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by dr3do »

Hi Paul, how are are you? What is you progress and have you changed/readjusted so far? :-k :fsbgrin:
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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by Paul Victory »

dr3do wrote:Hi Paul, how are are you? What is you progress and have you changed/readjusted so far? :-k :fsbgrin:
Thanks for asking. I'd like to be able to say that I've changed my approach, but I haven't really. I'm still footering around without any coherent plan, doing what I feel like on any particular day. I haven't managed to do a decent CTC yet and that's distracting me a bit. I managed a bit of an improvement today (to 7254m), but I really feel I should be capable of at least reaching 7300m.

I'm done a good few meters over the last couple of weeks, including a HM on Sunday 9th and an FM on Saturday 15th. I decided to do the FM on the spur of the moment and was very pleased to get comfortably under 3 hours (2:56:47.7) and did my second best ever FM. A lot slower than my PB from April, but pleasing nonetheless.

I'm going to Portugal for 8 days at the end of the month and I'll probably continue to adopt an ad hoc approach until then, with at least one more attempt at the CTC thrown in. My intention is to start doing the Pete PLan after I get back and hopefully that will provide some much needed focus and structure.

Overall, I'm feeling OK about things at present and the FM proved that I'm not as unfit as I thought I was. So on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say my mojo is back up over the half way mark, maybe at 6 or even heading towards 7.

How are things with you? I notice that you haven't recorded that many meters this week.

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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by Paul Victory »

Thought I should post an update on yesterday's post. I joined a local gym at end June because they were doing a three for one special offer for a very reasonable €395 (in total) for a full year's membership. I did this mainly for my two sons, who have both become quite unfit, but I figured I might also get some use out of it by doing weights or attending classes or even doing alternative cardio to rowing from time to time.

I didn't get around to actually going to the gym until yesterday. They have 7 Model Ds with PM3s and they are reasonably clean (max DF was 175 on the one I used yesterday). There is a block of wood bolted to the floor in front of and behind the front legs, preventing the ergs from slipping during sprints.

Anyway, I asked some questions about classes and getting shown around the gym and then decided to do some erging. :roll: I did 15 minutes warm up followed by my third attempt at this month's CTC. I managed a small (28m) improvement on my previous effort, but it remains a challenge that I feel I should be able to do somewhat faster. My average pace is over 2 seconds per 500m slower than the twenty minute challenge in February. But maybe that's just a measure of how much fitness I've lost since then. :roll: :oops: #-o

So I was tempted to have a go at my 100m time, having only managed 17.0 seconds so far this season compared to a PB of 16.5 seconds towards the end of last season. I did 10 minutes cool down, moved the DF up to 175 and the footplate up a notch and off I went. I struggled to get the split down at the start and could only manage 17.2 seconds. I had a second attempt with the same result. I then did a third attempt and managed 16.9 seconds and a fourth attempt where I did 17.0 seconds. I decided to do one more attempt at my normal DF of 132 and my normal footplate setting and could only manage 17.4 seconds.

I was about to do a final cool down when I got a phone call from an engineer who was calling out to fix a problem with my newly installed Sky HD box - I'll now be able to watch recorded programs as well as live programs when I'm erging. Anyway, he had arrived about an hour ahead of schedule and was waiting outside my house, so I had to rush home (on foot - it's just over a mile) as otherwise I would have been without TV for the weekend. I arrived home in a bit of a lather, but thankfully we got everything sorted. After he was gone, I decided to do a cool down on my home erg, but felt too stiff so just went and had a shower.

What's all this to do with anything, you might ask? Well, we went over to friends for a few drinks and some cheese and snacks last night and I had a couple of drinks before going over because I was feeling a bit stressed after all the rushing about. My stomach began to feel a bit off at around 11:30 and we left shortly afterwards. I wasn't particularly drunk, but I had drunk a bit more than usual and probably ate too much rich cheese and salty snacks. The upshot was that I spent most of the night going back and forth to the bathroom until I no longer had food of any description in my body.

I weighed myself before going to bed last night and I was 99.5 kg. :shock: :oops: #-o I weighed myself again this morning and I was 95.9 kg - a loss of almost 8 pounds. I'm feeling slightly better now and eating a banana slowly, but I'm pretty tired after a very broken night's sleep and my HR this morning (I've been taking my BP and RHR every morning for the last few weeks) was 75 instead of my usual 52 or 53 or thereabouts.

I think this might be a signal that I should do no erging today, but I hate doing this as it would be my second day off in the last three. I'd welcome any thoughts and/or advice. By the way, I've decided to take a complete break from alcohol for the next week or so until I go to Portugal on August 31st and I hope I can stick to that (particularly as I'm going to a wedding on Friday).

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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by dr3do »

Paul Victory wrote:I'd like to be able to say that I've changed my approach, but I haven't really. I'm still footering around without any coherent plan, doing what I feel like on any particular day.
At least you're honest. :fsgrin: =D> ^O^
So on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say my mojo is back up over the half way mark, maybe at 6 or even heading towards 7.
Not too bad. :fsbgrin:

How are things with you? I notice that you haven't recorded that many meters this week.
Oh really, you noticed that? Wow. :oops: Thanks for asking. ^O^

I'm still very active, but have reduced my time on erg for the moment. For several reasons…

1. On Slides
Since I'm on slides, I'm working a lot on better/proper technique (=good power curve), which is or feels quite exhausting. I have a small range (watt/pace) where I can maintain a good curve and a good sequencing - unfortunately in the higher speed zone, so no "long sessions" on slides for the moment. Tried the static erg (for low speed and/or meter munching) again, but don't I like it any more - sounds maybe weird, but I hate the feeling of sudden acceleration of body mass. For me, maybe it's my inability/limitation, static and slides are very different in technique. For the moment I can't switch between both - hopefully it's only a temporary thing… until I'm technically in the "save zone" on slides.

2. Nice area
Directly in front of our door we have fens, woods, some hilloks (nice for uphill and/or trail running, nordic cross skating), tons of nice light gavel roads (good for running, nordic cross skating) with no cars allowed. As I'm now sub 80kg again (my knees like that very much), I started again with running more regularly. I'm also going to include nordic cross skating into my workout routine. :D

3. Coaching/Support
Both of our neighbors (below us) tried to erg. One of them is quite talented on the rower… already after two sessions he's producing a quite stunning nice power curve and has a good sequencing - but no no no aerobic base at all. :shock: :lol: I think 1-2 more sessions and I can erg with only keeping an eye on him, for now I refer to take the time and sit next to him to watch and correct him carefully.

The other one is a talented runner. Yesterday we did his first long long run (of course with walking breaks), which took about 2h15m - a nice combination uphill, downhill trail and gavel running. I knew it will be quite intense for him, so I mixed 1L of carbohydrate based fuel for him, which he really needed during the run - I had just 500ml of water 8-[. For now I have some lead, but if he continues with that serious training it will become challenging for me in one year or so - he's 15 years younger than me.

4. Logging
I got lazy with uploading my workouts to C2 directly after my workout. As I'm doing more multisport stuff (again), the meterboard became less "helpful/motivating" for me. The good thing… while I'm sliding the meterboard down, others can slide the meterboard up - when we cross, we can do a nice handshake. :lol:


EDIT: After trying nordic cross skating in my area… roads/tracks are too bumpy for my taste and my skills. Won't put energy into it - plan rejected.
Last edited by dr3do on Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: over training or what's the issue?

Post by Paul Victory »

All sounds good. I'm glad to hear that you have nice neighbours - makes up for the nasty piece of work you had to deal with in your previous apartment.

Paul V
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