Lactate based training

A forum for discussing training programmes, indoor racing, things that work for you, coaching etc.

Moderator: The forum police - (nee naw)

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:02 pm

valgozi wrote:If aerobic and anaerobic training is close to optimal for the time someone has to train (volume simply can not be increased). Then peak power does become the limiting factor. Apart from taking 3 - 6 months off of rowing to focus on a seriously dedicated weights program to significantly increase peak power, is there another way to increase peak power say during a sub 2.0mmol or even 1.5mmol lactate workout? Push for tens full power low rate during a very long row would that do it?

Does anyone record how their peak power changes throughout a season? and can anyone link any increases to volume or type of workouts they are doing to increases in peak power? Is there a perfect workout that fits in with a polarised training program that would give best bang for you bucks to increase peak power?
I think peak power training is kind of a win/win as you are approaching sprint racing season. By the nature of the training, you have to keep the sessions very short and you can tack them on to the beginning or end of endurance sessions.

On the topic of increasing peak power at low lactate levels, I think the best method is probably bungee rowing. Keep the rate very low, and squeeze each stroke really hard.

I don't record peak power through the season. I have just done a baseline measurement once I am stuck back indoors in the late fall, and then I intend to do another test at the end of racing season. This last season, my indoor plans got all munged up so I never did the follow up tests. I am hoping to do that this year though.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:05 pm

zootMutant wrote: From the book Which Comes First, Cardio or Weights? Fitness Myths, Training Truths, and Other Surprising Discoveries from the Science of Exercise, 2011.
Well, that's another 10 bucks invested in the Kindle store! Thanks for the great excerpt. I think the idea of a central governor has a lot of merit.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

sander
Free Spirit
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:07 am
I row on...: Model C with PM5
Location: Brno

Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:37 pm

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products ... 08-1025816

Jan Olbrecht text on Lactate testing. A few fragments from the article:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Image

Training Blog: http://blog.rowsandall.com/
Free Data and Analysis. For Rowers. By Rowers: http://rowsandall.com

sander
Free Spirit
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:07 am
I row on...: Model C with PM5
Location: Brno

Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:59 pm

And here is another paper (from 1992): https://www.iat.uni-leipzig.de/datenban ... brecht.pdf
Image

Training Blog: http://blog.rowsandall.com/
Free Data and Analysis. For Rowers. By Rowers: http://rowsandall.com

valgozi
Spends too much time in the forum
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:39 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4

Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:20 am

stelph wrote:Popping back to the brain trust thread to bounce some thinking around training and in particular “sweetspot training” and the possibility of integrating that concept into the training plan
Could this be a British Rower doing a "Sweetspot Workout"?

I saw this when Brianna tweeted it (can see you commented on it at the time) and always was a little confused by the lowish HR zones for an 2on2off interval session, most people race these and so lots of red. Her reply that it wasn't the most unpleasant of workouts - https://twitter.com/BriannaStubbs/statu ... 8499753985

So its 2 mins on 2 mins off x 10 at set splits. Only going off of the HR pic and the fact the only flat out one was the last. To get similar HR zones for myself I guess I would be around FTP (30min max speed) or just a little slower. So this could therefore be "sweetspot" training around 20mins of it with increasing and decreasing lactate, possibly to help build clearance?

stelph
Spends too much time in the forum
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:45 am
I row on...: Model C with PM3

Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:53 pm

sander wrote:And here is another paper (from 1992): https://www.iat.uni-leipzig.de/datenban ... brecht.pdf
Thanks for the images Sander - correct me if wrog but to me in summary these seem to be proving the statement I have heard a few times around lactate testing which is "don't assume just because one person can product/tolerate a higher level of lactate that they are "fitter"". These two links both seem to suggest there are people who have overactive lactate production vs lactate consumption, so actually the high levels of lactate production can be a bad thing as it overwhelms the consumption ability. This thinking would also explain why blasting out fast for a longer race would be a bad idea as equally it would cause a spike in lactate that overwhelms the processing and release of energy

So really supports the idea everyone is different and so training adapted to you is the way forward, someone who is able to produce high levels of lactate for example may benefit from skewing towards more 2mmol workouts for example

stelph
Spends too much time in the forum
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:45 am
I row on...: Model C with PM3

Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:34 pm

valgozi wrote:
stelph wrote:Popping back to the brain trust thread to bounce some thinking around training and in particular “sweetspot training” and the possibility of integrating that concept into the training plan
Could this be a British Rower doing a "Sweetspot Workout"?

I saw this when Brianna tweeted it (can see you commented on it at the time) and always was a little confused by the lowish HR zones for an 2on2off interval session, most people race these and so lots of red. Her reply that it wasn't the most unpleasant of workouts - https://twitter.com/BriannaStubbs/statu ... 8499753985

So its 2 mins on 2 mins off x 10 at set splits. Only going off of the HR pic and the fact the only flat out one was the last. To get similar HR zones for myself I guess I would be around FTP (30min max speed) or just a little slower. So this could therefore be "sweetspot" training around 20mins of it with increasing and decreasing lactate, possibly to help build clearance?
I get the impression traditional cycling "sweet spot" training is much longer workouts than 2 mins on, suggestions I have seen for cycling tended around 2 x 20mins for example aiming for around 90% of FTP. running with the idea that your FTP is 95% of your 20min test then running some example numbers

If your 20mins were 1:50 split (263 watts)
FTP: 1:48 (276 watts)
Workout intensity: 1:52 (249 watts)

I would see this being a tough but manageable workout, certainly not one I would want to do too often tho :shock:

some more details on what sweetspot training workouts should be like

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/arti ... the-winter

sander
Free Spirit
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:07 am
I row on...: Model C with PM5
Location: Brno

Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:32 pm

stelph wrote:
sander wrote:And here is another paper (from 1992): https://www.iat.uni-leipzig.de/datenban ... brecht.pdf
Thanks for the images Sander - correct me if wrog but to me in summary these seem to be proving the statement I have heard a few times around lactate testing which is "don't assume just because one person can product/tolerate a higher level of lactate that they are "fitter"". These two links both seem to suggest there are people who have overactive lactate production vs lactate consumption, so actually the high levels of lactate production can be a bad thing as it overwhelms the consumption ability. This thinking would also explain why blasting out fast for a longer race would be a bad idea as equally it would cause a spike in lactate that overwhelms the processing and release of energy

So really supports the idea everyone is different and so training adapted to you is the way forward, someone who is able to produce high levels of lactate for example may benefit from skewing towards more 2mmol workouts for example
Yes. Everybody is different. Also, there are many parameters that are personal:

1. Base Lactate level
2. Lactate consumption ability through aerobic energy pathway
3. Lactate production VLaMax
4. Lactate clearance in the liver (which may vary from day to day - alcohol consumption in 24 hours prior to test)
5. Maximum power through aerobic energy pathway
6. Toughness -- i.e. relation between Borg Scale and Blood Lactate level

If Lactate testing is supposed to "measure" the parameters 1-5, it is my impression that you need to do a battery of tests and I don't actually see how one could deduct from one measurement if training has had the desired effect.

Take for example the 2 speed tests I have been doing in the past year. Here is a link to a discussion of the latest one:

http://blog.rowsandall.com/2016/09/25/s ... -thinking/

Key graph:
Image

So what happened, for example, between March and April 2016? The following table has the 2.0 mmol/L, 4.0 mmol/L and steepness values for all measurements, as determined from the two data points per test:

Image

Still I find it hard to assess if (3) has changed or (5) or both.
Image

Training Blog: http://blog.rowsandall.com/
Free Data and Analysis. For Rowers. By Rowers: http://rowsandall.com

stelph
Spends too much time in the forum
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:45 am
I row on...: Model C with PM3

Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:52 pm

sander wrote:
stelph wrote:
sander wrote:And here is another paper (from 1992): https://www.iat.uni-leipzig.de/datenban ... brecht.pdf
Thanks for the images Sander - correct me if wrog but to me in summary these seem to be proving the statement I have heard a few times around lactate testing which is "don't assume just because one person can product/tolerate a higher level of lactate that they are "fitter"". These two links both seem to suggest there are people who have overactive lactate production vs lactate consumption, so actually the high levels of lactate production can be a bad thing as it overwhelms the consumption ability. This thinking would also explain why blasting out fast for a longer race would be a bad idea as equally it would cause a spike in lactate that overwhelms the processing and release of energy

So really supports the idea everyone is different and so training adapted to you is the way forward, someone who is able to produce high levels of lactate for example may benefit from skewing towards more 2mmol workouts for example
Yes. Everybody is different. Also, there are many parameters that are personal:

1. Base Lactate level
2. Lactate consumption ability through aerobic energy pathway
3. Lactate production VLaMax
4. Lactate clearance in the liver (which may vary from day to day - alcohol consumption in 24 hours prior to test)
5. Maximum power through aerobic energy pathway
6. Toughness -- i.e. relation between Borg Scale and Blood Lactate level

If Lactate testing is supposed to "measure" the parameters 1-5, it is my impression that you need to do a battery of tests and I don't actually see how one could deduct from one measurement if training has had the desired effect.
I dunno, I still think the standard lactate ladder test is still the best way to get a good overall view of your current fitness and to do that test every 4-6weeks, although as I have found its not something that you can easily do yourself without assistance, since you can map over time how your fitness improves at both the bottom and top end. Then self test in the longer workouts to make sure you are under 2mmol for those workouts.

The only other test that it looks like might also be useful is the 20mins test if you are looking for your FTP to steer sweetspot training sessions, probably done equally as frequently
sander wrote:Take for example the 2 speed tests I have been doing in the past year. Here is a link to a discussion of the latest one:

http://blog.rowsandall.com/2016/09/25/s ... -thinking/

Key graph:
Image

So what happened, for example, between March and April 2016? The following table has the 2.0 mmol/L, 4.0 mmol/L and steepness values for all measurements, as determined from the two data points per test:

Image

Still I find it hard to assess if (3) has changed or (5) or both.
This is where the RPE and wellbeing comes into it I guess, what was your health like/training like over March-April? To me it very much looks like your fitness took a dive after March for whatever reason

sander
Free Spirit
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:07 am
I row on...: Model C with PM5
Location: Brno

Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:21 pm

I set a 10k PB a week before the April test
Image

Training Blog: http://blog.rowsandall.com/
Free Data and Analysis. For Rowers. By Rowers: http://rowsandall.com

E-Clair
Spends too much time in the forum
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:57 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5

Re: Lactate based training

Post by E-Clair » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:02 am

Stelph, I have that as
20-minute TT 276 W (1:48)
FTP 262 W (1:50)
2x20' workout 90% at 236 W (1:54)
e-Clair
He who eats the most custard wins.
Image

stelph
Spends too much time in the forum
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:45 am
I row on...: Model C with PM3

Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:14 am

sander wrote:I set a 10k PB a week before the April test
Then I am struggling to see a correlation between this two step test that you are doing and judging relative fitness to be honest :cry: Where did the protocol come from and did that state the reason for doing it/what to look for?
Stelph, I have that as
20-minute TT 276 W (1:48)
FTP 262 W (1:50)
2x20' workout 90% at 236 W (1:54)
Yes you are right, I got my numbers mixed up, thanks!

mister2
Warming up
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:38 am
I row on...: Model D with PM5

Re: Lactate based training

Post by mister2 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:54 am

Hi all,

Great thread that seems to summarise where things are at for lactate rowing training. I thought I might try and contribute what I have found:

- Jan Olbrecht's book "The Science of Winning" is great but has required me to rethink quite a bit! http://len.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/0 ... 06HO-1.pdf is a presentation that leans on it and also has a slide on rowing. The tailoring workouts to anaerobically weak / strong athletes is very interesting.

- Regarding HR drift, I have noticed a similar effect. I haven't measured my 2mmol point accurately enough for all my ergs, but I have got quite a lot of data on HR drift thanks to Strava; what I have found is that Joe Friel esq % drift is a somewhat useless measurement as it is time dependent. Instead I measure drift in terms of bpm per 20 minutes after the initial 10min warmup (per 20min simply because all my ergs tend to be multiples of 20min). It seems that <3-4bpm per 20min drift means that I am sub 2mmol (roughly), if I bump it up by 10-15w my drift goes up to 6-7bpm per 20min. It seems to be proportional to intensity, I find roughly:

UT2 = <5bpm per 20min drift
UT1 = 10bpm per 20min drift
AT = 15bpm per 20min drift

This winter season I haven't bothered to lactate test as much and have simply been doing 2x10k at 215w which has been the point at which I get less than 3bpm drift. Last season I did the "bump it up 1w every time my HR is under xx" but I found that it got increasingly hard and my HR drift went up to 6-7bpm / 20min so in hindsight I suspect I was well above 2mmol; although I think whenever I measured it, it was less but I might have been glycogen deprived. This season I'm taking a new approach and keeping it at 215w until I stop improving, my average HR for the session has dropped from 145bpm down to 128bpm. This thread has inspired me to break out the lactate tester again though.

- Regarding MLSS, it seems that it is inversely proportional to muscle mass. For a long time I was going off 4mmol = MLSS threshold because that's where a lot of cycling data shows it to be, but I have just read a few papers that seem to show for rowing MLSS might be more like 3mmol. If so, that would possibly show again how sensitive rowing training is to lactate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8775160

- Finally, from Olbrecht's book and a few books on Lydiard running training (really, this endurance training stuff starts looking pretty similar across different sports!) I have started adding in very short 5-stroke max force into a couple of my steady state sessions each week, one set per km or 5mins. The thinking is to that it shouldn't interfere as mainly alactic work; otherwise I have found similar to Stelph, that it's hard to fit the strength work in each week. Anecdotally I have found it leaves me feeling a lot better after the workout too, 2mmol workouts can grind me down.

Kind regards,
Nick

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:46 pm

Hi Nick,
Glad you chimed in. I'm on a short hiatus because of some knee surgery, but I'll hopefully be back at it within a week or so. I agree with you that drift over 20 minutes is a pretty good way to predict lactate and it's a lot easier to measure.

I'm impressed by a 215w power at <2mmol/l. A couple of years ago I managed to work mine up to just over 200w with months of patient effort. I haven't managed to get back there though.

The 5 stroke max force bursts is a good idea too. I've usually added a short set of 10 sec sprints at the end of a steady state workout as I head into the month with sprint races. But doing them routinely in some steady state sessions makes sense. Do you need to lower your steady state power in those session to manage HR drift with extra bursts in there?
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:08 pm

It's been an eventful year, but that's a story for another thread.

With the end of the OTW season, I am returning to mostly erg based training. Looking over my past results, it's pretty clear that I had my best results when I used a polarized training program and used lactate measurement to guide the low intensity training.

So, thought I would resurrect this thread. When I popped it open yesterday, I was astonished at the incredible trove of valuable stuff in it. I ended up rereading the whole thing, all 21 pages.

To get back into the groove I did a classic step test, using a procedure from the Australian institute of sport. This test is 7 steps, each 4 minutes long with 1 minute rests to do a lactate test. The powers in each step ranges from very slow to a bit faster than 2k pace.

Image

Image

Now I have to do a bit of work to find my training power. It's somewhere around 180w.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:28 pm

to follow up on my last post, I dug out the result of my first lactate step test from October 2013, so just over 4 years ago. I was in a bit better shape then, but the results are roughly similar.

Image

If you are interested, here are links to the description of the test and some thoughts about results.

https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/ ... step-test/

https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/ ... n-lactate/

I'm going to try to post here as things progress. Stay tuned.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

Massi
Warming up
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:53 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5

Re: Lactate based training

Post by Massi » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:55 pm

This is an interesting thread, I'm quite interested in polarized training myself.
I've used the 80/20 training plans from Matt Fitzgerald for my running, with good results, and I'm wondering if they can be adapted to rowing.
Heart zones described at app.php/page/heart-rate-bands-calculator are similar but not a perfect match. For example Matt Fitzgerald highly recommends not to work in what he calls Zone X, which roughly sits between UT1 and AT bands, a bit too hard for easy training and a bit too easy for hard training. Easy rows like UT2 should be an almost one to one match with 'Easy Runs' (I can row an hour in that band every day without any problem, just my running training). Interval training is probably a bit more complicated, but given that my running and rowing pace are similar I'll try to apply the same principles...

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:59 pm

The same principles apply to both. The most significant difference in my mind is that since rowing is a non-impact sport, you can sustain higher volumes of low intensity training with lower chance of injury.

I've heard Zone X called "Black Hole Training", I think by Joe Friel. That's the best thing about using lactates is to make sure that your long and low sessions are actually avoiding "zone X"
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

Massi
Warming up
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:53 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5

Re: Lactate based training

Post by Massi » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:37 pm

Yep, I think it's important to play with the low intensity training volume to find the right balance. In my case easy runs were about 50 minutes, with the first 10/15 in Zone 1 (just above warm-up). That translates at the moment to 1 hour of easy rowing, but mainly because i'm a newbie :-) I suspect in a few months I can up to 80 minutes...it's just a bit boring compared to running outside LOL
Intervals are complicated because they are usually based on pace, and I don't have enough history and reference points. By the way, speaking of lactate, is the threshold supposed to be same regardless of the sport? My running threshold is 157, with a max rate of 174, but I'm wondering if I can use it for rowing too

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:11 pm

Your threshold hr will be a bit different for running.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:37 am

I'm getting back into the mysteries of lactate based training.

Today, I wanted to do an experiment on myself. My step test and my prior aerobic workouts indicated that a training power between 180 and 185W would probably about right.

What does "about right" mean? That means that they would result in a stable level of lactate less than 2.0mmol/l over an 80 minute training session. That's the theory anyway.

Here's what actually happened.

Code: Select all

          Workout Summary - media/20171111-2245290o.csv
--|Total|-Total-|--Avg--|-Avg-|Avg-|-Avg-|-Max-|-Avg
--|Dist-|-Time--|-Pace--|-Pwr-|SPM-|-HR--|-HR--|-DPS
--|19813|88:00.0|02:13.2|178.7|19.1|141.1|149.0|11.8
W-|19306|80:00.0|02:04.3|182.8|19.0|141.8|149.0|12.7
R-|00512|08:00.0|07:49.0|064.3|20.2|120.8|149.0|03.7
Workout Details
#-|SDist|-Split-|-SPace-|-Pwr-|SPM-|AvgHR|MaxHR|DPS-|-lactate
00|04836|20:00.0|02:04.1|182.7|18.9|136.6|144.0|12.8|2.3
01|04822|20:00.0|02:04.4|183.7|19.2|143.0|149.0|12.6|2.8
02|04816|20:00.0|02:04.6|181.5|19.0|143.8|148.0|12.7|1.4
03|04833|20:00.0|02:04.2|183.1|19.0|143.9|148.0|12.7|1.6
My HR actually correlated pretty well with the lactate weirdness. It was rising during the first two intervals and very stable in the last two.

Image

So, what does this mean? A couple of things.
1. I'm training at about the right power, maybe a bit low. I am aiming at <2.0 at the end of 80 minutes.
2. The higher lactates at the start are most likely related to two factors
- I rowed pretty soon after lunch. If you have highish blood sugar (like after eating), then your muscles will use that instead of fat and this will push up your lactates.
- I dove right in at my training power. I found through experimentation that ramping up the power slowly over the first 10 minutes resulted in lower end HR and lower lactates.

So tomorrow, I will row fasted and ramp up the power slowly.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

Massi
Warming up
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:53 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5

Re: Lactate based training

Post by Massi » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:02 pm

@gregsmith01748 can I ask you which device are you using to measure your lactate?

User avatar
gregsmith01748
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2015
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 5:51 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Hopkinton, MA, USA

Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:53 pm

I use a Lactate Plus Meter. http://www.lactate.com/lactateplus.html The meter is pretty cheap, but the test strips cost about $1.80 each. You also have to deal with the fact that other folks in the gym think that you are a lunatic or a diabetic for poking holes in your fingers. :shock:

I did my experiment on Sunday, and it didn't go that well. I did the session fasted, and I did 10 minutes at below target power to give my engine a chance to warmup, but my HR response was much worse than on Saturday.

Image

My lactates at the end were 3.3, way too high. I also felt like it was a lot more work.

So, my theory is that the difference is related to carried fatigue. On Saturday, I was doing the session after a rest day. In fact, it was 54 hours after my previous workout. On Sunday, I did the session about 18 hours after the Saturday session, which also included a couple of hard 1' intervals. It was entirely doable, but ended up making the training intensity too high. Time to back off.

So, today, I moved my training power down to 175W. I did not bother to do a slow start. I did the session fasted. It was 21 hours after my prior session, and there was no sprinty stuff in the Sunday session. The HR difference was remarkable.

Image

After 80 minutes, lactate was 1.8. Which is right on. I think 175W is where I need to be for now.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
Image
Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

Brianbloom
Warming up
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:02 pm

Re: Lactate based training

Post by Brianbloom » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:00 am

Massi wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:55 pm
This is an interesting thread, I'm quite interested in polarized training myself.
I've used the 80/20 training plans from Matt Fitzgerald for my running, with good results, and I'm wondering if they can be adapted to rowing.
Heart zones described at app.php/page/heart-rate-bands-calculator are similar but not a perfect match. For example Matt Fitzgerald highly recommends not to work in what he calls Zone X, which roughly sits between UT1 and AT bands, a bit too hard for easy training and a bit too easy for hard training. Easy rows like UT2 should be an almost one to one match with 'Easy Runs' (I can row an hour in that band every day without any problem, just my running training). Interval training is probably a bit more complicated, but given that my running and rowing pace are similar I'll try to apply the same principles...
This is the exact training I do too.

Massi
Warming up
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:53 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5

Re: Lactate based training

Post by Massi » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:06 pm

One advantage of using Matt Fitzgerald's running training plans applied to rowing is the workout variety: this week I've done some speed-play (or fartlek), and it was quite fun :-) It was a 10 x (1 minute @ Zone 5, 2 minute @ Zone 1), but I struggled to get into Zone 5, I tried to row as hard as possible but heart rate was not increasing as much as needed. Training by pace or power would be definitely easier.

Post Reply