Lactate based training

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:07 pm

stelph wrote: Interesting, how are you calculating the drift? Are you using the aerobic coupling calculation?
If you look at my lactate link in my signature there is a page of HR drifts in the google spreadsheet. I think I am using the aerobic coupling formula correctly yes, but yes it is for anaerobic workouts as well. I calculate the HR averages using the slider on the polar flow website to work exactly first and second half's of HR. The watts worked out using segment data in the rows.

Had an easy row this morning 1.3mmol ending which was only 0.1mmol over my resting, but 4.8% HR drift almost over 5%. When I say easy the intensity was low, but 4x30mins may have stressed the old drift as I have never rowed for that long before.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:07 pm

sander wrote:I found this presentation on worldrowing.com which is very interesting: http://www.worldrowing.com/mm//Document ... eutral.pdf

Talks about lactate, about measuring athletes, about polarized training ... what do we want more?
Thanks for sharing, it looks to be a good summary of current information, I especially like the description of two types of athletes on page 74 where it describes Aerobic Diesel and Glycolytic whippet :lol: Love the names, but in all seriousness I suspected this would probably be the case and it certainly helps to explain why some people get on better with the "threshold" type training and others the "polarised" training plan.

In general tho the slides support most of the things I had understood from my own research also, namely

1) The aerobic component of a 2k is a larger provider of energy than was previously thought (around 77% or more)
2) The majority of athletes will see the most improvements following a poalrised plan (i.e. most are Aerobic Diesels)
3) The most important improvement you can make is to improve your aerobic fitness, so if you are limited in time the aerobic training is cut last - This is because it is more important to make sure the lactate isnt building up in the first place rather than making you able to deal with a higher lactate level
4) You should monitor and review/adjust your training if you see a plateau or drop in performance (are you light days light enough? are your hard days hard enough?)

Starting to think I need to fit in more Lactate step tests however, I still think that 20min+ lactate testing is the way to go but im coming round to the idea of a standard step test to find 2mmol and 4mmol values and checking how they compare - their case study of the athlete with 380 watts for example is pretty impressive

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:53 am

Another international training presentation from World Rowing Conference (just posted at rowing illustrated forum) - http://www.worldrowing.com/mm//Document ... eutral.pdf

This one has a little more detail on training zones -
Page 65 - Looks like LT1 is where lactate rises above baseline so from 1.2 to 1.3mmol. LT2 is 2.2mmol so 1.0mmol above baseline.
The stroke rates these are done at are very high for steady state (well what until the last few weeks I have considered high for SS ratings, starting to revise my thoughts on SPM and SS). LT2 seems to be up near 27-30SPM, LT1 22-25SPM, these are high SPM's even for a Dynamic?

Page 59 - Then gives % of time spent in each level, almost all is therefore below LT2 so below 2.2mmol (Example 1 96%, Example 2 99.8%, Example 3 93%). A significant amount is also below LT1.

I am reading that correctly am I not?
Last edited by valgozi on Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:25 am

valgozi wrote:Another international training presentation from World Rowing Conference (just posted at rowing illustrated forum) - http://www.worldrowing.com/mm//Document ... eutral.pdf

This one has a little more detail on training zones -
Page 65 - Looks like LT1 is where lactate rises above baseline so from 1.2 to 1.3mmol (in this individual). LT2 is 2.2mmol so 1.0mmol above baseline.

Page 59 - Then gives % of time spent in each level, almost all training is below LT2 so below 2.2mmol, and significant amount below LT1.

I am reading that correctly am I not?
Yeah you can go directly to worldrowing.com, find the page about the coaching conference and download all the presentations.

On that page 65, I find the curve (dotted line) they draw through the data points quite dodgy. Interesting comment about this being an "anaerobically" driven athlete who still has low end lactate. The key about interpreting these data plots is in comparing progress during the preparation and adjusting training accordingly.

On page 59, you have to understand how their macro/meso/micro cycles are planned to be able to derive anything from this report about one micro cycle. This was summer 2015/16 (so now). In NZ, they will be in racing season, but they still have to prepare for the Olympics. Sounds like a very difficult thing to plan for a coach, although I guess the Olympics are the important races.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:00 pm

valgozi wrote: The stroke rates these are done at are very high for steady state (well what until the last few weeks I have considered high for SS ratings, starting to revise my thoughts on SPM and SS). LT2 seems to be up near 27-30SPM, LT1 22-25SPM, these are high SPM's even for a Dynamic?
I think that is just more how the test is done rather than saying your LT1/LT2 should be at a set rate, I remember when I first did the step test I was instructed to hit a rate that I felt comfortable at for each wattage that allowed me to produce the watts required - but it was never suggested I should be hitting those rates when doing the LT2 sessions prescribed (closer to the usual 18-20 it used to say) and I think we usually recommend sticking to a rate for all your sessions at LT2 just to make it easier to compare each session to each other

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:06 pm

sander wrote:On that page 65, I find the curve (dotted line) they draw through the data points quite dodgy. Interesting comment about this being an "anaerobically" driven athlete who still has low end lactate. The key about interpreting these data plots is in comparing progress during the preparation and adjusting training accordingly.
Well looking back at the test I did in 2013 I would agree with the assessment that the athletes aerobic end is lacking a litte. I did a 6 x 4min test back then and my 2mmol wattage came out as 267 watts which is better than this guys, but his 4mmol/LT1 wattage is much better than mine (307 watts) and his final step blows mine away so shows hes probably relying more on his anaerobic energy sources for his 2k score :shock:

Also its interesting hes logged as a 1.7 lactate at rest, perhaps this is also a sign of an aerobic athlete?

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:12 am

stelph wrote: Also its interesting hes logged as a 1.7 lactate at rest, perhaps this is also a sign of an aerobic athlete?
Did you mean anaerobic athlete?

1.7mmol is his lactate at first 4mins isn't it? I know it then quotes separately resting as 1.7mmol but have they actually tested before he did a warm up so proper resting? I don't think this is a true resting!

I would say someones resting shows how many carbs are in the system the higher the lactate the more carbs. Resting lactate shows when you last ate more than aerobic/anaerobic I think?! Would be interesting to see what people's ranges are. I'd of thought you'd have lower lactates more in line with baseline he hits 1.2mmol in this test so I'd of said if not eaten recently he'd get near that for a resting lactate reading lower if it had been quite a while since eating.

My resting does change day to day I have quite a few measurements of it now.
stelph wrote: I think that is just more how the test is done rather than saying your LT1/LT2 should be at a set rate, I remember when I first did the step test I was instructed to hit a rate that I felt comfortable at for each wattage that allowed me to produce the watts required - but it was never suggested I should be hitting those rates when doing the LT2 sessions prescribed (closer to the usual 18-20 it used to say) and I think we usually recommend sticking to a rate for all your sessions at LT2 just to make it easier to compare each session to each other
The Canadian presentation On PAGE 24 there is a bit about SS rate showing "Maximal Cardiovascular Aerobic Development <1.5mmol to 2.0mmol moderate to low HR's, higher stoke rates lower powers over hours = 22 SPM", then separately "Muscular Endurance low stroke rates full power 16 SPM".

I actually can't rate at 22 SPM with low power tried it Sunday and today. Only limited testing but yes rating up may not affect lactates enough to keep them low. As on a static you start doing a lot of unnecessary work coming up the slide and less on the legs if you have too low a wattage.

If he takes a wattage across set at rate 25 he will not be getting the same lactate reading at rate 18 so this is a little strange as it does seem that NZ have worked out training zones based on this test.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:16 pm

Image

https://twitter.com/kiwipair/status/702981924529147904

Eric Murray tweeting his work out on a dynamic rate 22. 312W with 5% HR decoupling drift, that could be around or just below 2.0mmol ending lactate :shock:

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:54 pm

I feel so old and so slow. :(
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:00 pm

I have asked him for a lactate piccy like he does with his test rows #fingerscrossed he posts one.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:07 pm

Today, I did the "2 speed lactate test" (https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/ ... peed-test/) for the third time.

Detailed descriptions:

December: https://rowsandall.wordpress.com/2015/1 ... djust-win/
January: https://rowsandall.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... n-part-ii/
February: https://rowsandall.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... tate-test/

Here is the graph:
Image

There is a problem with the first measurement of today. I forgot to wipe with the wash cloth, and got an incredibly high reading (6.9 mmol/L). In the graph, I replaced it with the 3 minute reading.

So from December to January I moved the graph to the right and down (higher power, lower lactate). Today, I am very close o the January power but at much higher lactate.

All measurements were done on Friday afternoon. I am curious to see what our collective lactate wisdom thinks of this.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:14 pm

valgozi wrote: https://twitter.com/kiwipair/status/702981924529147904

Eric Murray tweeting his work out on a dynamic rate 22. 312W with 5% HR decoupling drift, that could be around or just below 2.0mmol ending lactate :shock:
Yeah, he called it a "cruisy session". ^O^ ^O^ ^O^ ^O^ ^O^ ^O^ ^O^ ^O^
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:46 pm

Time to resurrect this thread. As we head into the fall, I wanted to get an idea of where my endurance capability is. So, I did a endurance focused step test.

The protocol is
- 10 minute intervals
- 1:30 rests between intervals
- Initial power 160W, incrementing by 5 watts for each piece.
- do a lactate measurement at the end of each interval and record that along with the avg power, and the avg HR for the last 2 minutes of the interval

The purpose of this is to give you a good idea about the training intensity that will result in a lactate level that remains below 2.0 mmol/l during the whole session.

Here's a view of session with the power and my HR.
Image

Here is the resulting lactate vs power curve.
Image

A little hard to interpret, but I'm guessing that the best starting point for a training power is around 185W. There were a couple of botched samples, but I had pretty much gotten the procedure consistent by the time I hit 180W and I trust the rest of the results.

Compare this result to November of 2014. I was in better shape then. The dashed lines are the old test, the solid lines are Sunday's test. To me it looks like I am 10 to 15W off of my old results. This seems to make sense to me, my training has been lower volume this summer than in 2014.

Image

Anyway, I thought I would post this here for anyone who is interested.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:04 am

Shows summer is coming to an end as talk of lactate starts again. I've not pricked a finger since the start of spring

So much to re-read in this thread.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:58 pm

Popping back to the brain trust thread to bounce some thinking around training and in particular “sweetspot training” and the possibility of integrating that concept into the training plan

As a background – currently my thinking with regards to training is that the ideal program is very much a Polarised plan – as close to an 80/20 split as possible with
- 80% spent doing workouts lasting minimum 1hour or longer at a steady wattage throughout, test done immediately at the end of the workout and looking to be ideally closer to 1.5mmol, adjust wattage down if 2mmol or above, if lactate constantly close to 1.2-1.3mmol for two workouts, step up 3 watts
- 20% flatout workouts, 2:1 work to rest ratio with ideally short intervals – a staple being 13 x (30’ on, 15’ off) repeated 3 times which was taken from the study where they showed shorter intervals were better to do https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 4368wh27eQ

However one thing that I wonder about is the lack of longer workouts, as despite the fact that studies demonstrate that this is physiologically the best plan, I do not that it doesn’t really reflect how we race in either head races. That’s why I became interested in reading about Sweetspot training and how adding that to the training plan may help address this – sweetspot basically being at 88-93 per cent of FTP power for around 30-40 mins

https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/six-th ... ing.html/1

So as long as you know your FTP (from a 20min test) you should be able to work out your sweetspot wattage and then drop one workout a week into your winter training which is followed by a day or two of sub 2mmol workouts to encourage recovery

Any thoughts?

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:58 pm

Tom,

Thanks for posting the link to the article. I think it looks like a pretty well designed study. The money chart for me is this one.
Image

The study conclusion is that short interval sessions drive improvements across the spectrum from peak power to beyond 40 minutes. From that perspective, it seems like a weekly sweetspot session is not necessary to yield the benefits. But in my gut I tend to agree with you, especially for head racing, that having regular training sessions that resemble race conditions is important to building mental toughness and to help you learn how hard you can push things. The thing that makes this a bit tougher is that training is a zero sum gain. Any session that you do as a sweetspot session will necessarily take away either from time training <2.0mmol or from the intense SI sessions. What do you sacrifice to add it in?

I guess my instinct would be to move the needle to 75% LIT and 25% HIT and include the sweetspot session as a HIT session.

Since this thread is coming back to life, a couple of questions.
1. You referred to the polarized split in terms of sessions (ie 20% of the sessions are intense intervals). I usually think of polarization in terms of total training minutes. In other words, if over a week, I had 100' of HIT and 300' of LIT, then my polarization is 25% / 75%. But in that week, probably half of the sessions are HIT sessions and half LIT sessions since the LIT ones are longer. What is the right way to add it up?

2. A more physiological session. I think I have a fundamental confusion that I am working through. We all do a ton of aerobic work below 2.0mmol/l to increase endurance. This mainly leans on the bodies ability to use fat as an energy source. The reason to avoid going too hard in endurance sessions is to avoid pushing beyond the crossover point where the body starts to increase the metabolism of CHO and decrease the metabolism of fat. SO far so good right? Here's my question...If we race at intensities way above where this crossover occurs, why the hell does it matter how well we can metabolize fat? That whole system is essentially shut down from the very first stroke. I have a theory that it might be related to endurance training causing an increase in mitochondria density, and then all those mitochondria can be used by the CHO cycle, but I really don't understand the processes well enough to explain to another person and I haven't seen any research or publication that covers this.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by zootMutant » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:41 am

gregsmith01748 wrote:But in my gut I tend to agree with you, especially for head racing, that having regular training sessions that resemble race conditions is important to building mental toughness and to help you learn how hard you can push things.
Interesting that you should mention that.

I was just reading "What Role Does My Brain Play in Fatigue?" by Alex Hutchinson, Ph.D.

=================

"Imagine crossing the finish line of a 10K running race -- or a bike ride or any other activity that pushes you to your limits. You're out of breath, and your heart is thumping. Your legs are burning, you're overheating and dripping sweat, and you feel as though your fuel gauge is on empty. All these factors contribute to your sense of fatigue, but which was the one that actually prevented you from going faster or farther? Scientists have been pursuing the answer to this question for the last century. But according to a radical theory that has been gaining momentum in the last few years, there is no answer -- because it's the wrong question.

"Researchers test the limits of endurance by putting athletes on a treadmill and gradually increasing the speed until they're forced to stop (or fall off the back of the treadmill). But compare this to what happens in real-life athletic contests. While running a race, you never reach a point where you simply keel over (unless something goes badly wrong). Instead, you're constantly adjusting your effort with the goal of running as fast as you can while ensuring that you complete the distance. So whatever 'failure' causes you to fall off the treadmill at the end of a maximal test can't be the same thing that prevents you from running faster over 10K.

"What's been missing here is the role of the brain. Instead of our limits being dictated by 'peripheral' fatigue -- a failure somewhere in the muscles of your legs, the beating of your heart, or the pumping of your lungs -- South African researcher Tim Noakes has proposed that a 'central governor' in the brain regulates our physical exertions. This governor integrates physiological information from throughout the body -- core temperature, blood oxygenation, muscle signals, and so on -- along with other data based on previous experience and knowledge of how long you expect to continue. Operating beyond conscious control, it regulates how much muscle you're able to activate, with the goal of holding you back before you reach a state that could damage your heart or other organs.

"This doesn't mean that fatigue is imaginary. Your body really does have physical limits -- but, if the central governor theory is correct, your brain rarely permits your body to actually reach them. The simplest example of this phenomenon is the finishing sprint that is a nearly universal phenomenon across endurance sports, from novices to world-record holders. No matter how hard you thought you were going, you suddenly find as you approach the finish that your legs can move faster after all. Nothing has changed physiologically -- but your central governor allows you to speed up now that the finish line is in sight.

"In contrast, if you put subjects in a hot room and ask them to pedal an exercise bike as hard as they can, their power output will be lower than in cool conditions -- right from the first pedal stroke. The slowdown happens long before any of the physical effects of heat could be relevant -- further evidence that the brain is quietly enforcing a safe 'maximal' effort.

"This debate between peripheral and central models of fatigue is perhaps the most controversial topic in current exercise physiology. No definitive conclusions are in sight, but there's broad recognition that the brain plays a larger role than previously acknowledged. This role is unconscious, so you can't simply 'decide' to push through to your true physical limits -- which is probably a good thing. What you can do, though, is gradually teach your brain what your body is capable of. For example, training at your goal race pace not only increases fitness, but also allows your mind to become familiar with the accompanying physiological feedback. You can't turn your central governor off -- but with patience you can adjust its settings."

From the book Which Comes First, Cardio or Weights? Fitness Myths, Training Truths, and Other Surprising Discoveries from the Science of Exercise, 2011.

Citations:

Timothy Noakes et al., "From catastrophe to complexity: A novel model of integrative central neural regulation of effort and fatigue during exercise in humans," British Journal of Sports Medicine, 2004, 38, 511-514.

Ross Tucker et al., "Impaired exercise performance in the heat is associated with an anticipatory reduction in skeletal muscle recruitment," Pflugers Archiv -- European Journal of Physiology, 2004, 448(4), 422-430.

=================

In the last 20 days I have increased my 10-min CTC by over 70 meters, but my perceived level of exertion is lower now than it was on my first attempt. There is no way my fitness could have increased that rapidly... It has been a long time since I've done any serious exercise and my brain doesn't know what to expect. So, after each success, my brain allows me go to raise my heart rate a little higher the next time. Soon I will have a failure and my brain will clamp down and future psychological progress will be more difficult. :-k
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:09 am

Interesting discussion and thanks for resurrecting it. I am scheduled to do a "2 speed lactate test" tomorrow.

In the past year I have been going quite along the lines of what Olbrecht writes in his book "The Science of Winning", but trying to tweak it to rowing and the distances we normally do. I do use periodisation, trying to aim at two things:

1. Train the specific type of fitness needed for the upcoming event (i.e. head race, or 1k sprints) or lay a base to build the specific fitness on (aerobic capacity)
2. Learn how my body (central governor) reacts in the specific conditions of such a race and try to maximize the outcome given the limited abilities of said body (central governor)

Knowing what is going to happen during a race is a key part of being successful, I believe. That's why we have race prep rituals. We are still nervous, anxious, excited, but the ritual helps channeling that into performing well. Also, it helps to know that the pain half way through a 1k OTW sprint is only lasting for 10 to 15 strokes and it is actually possible to push through it without reducing the pace.

So for example, while I try to generally adhere to a target of "25% recovery sessions", "50% extensive endurance", the "25%" of "other" varies per week and macro cycle. I estimate percentage as a percentage of total training time in that week, where a warming up/cooling down for a High Intensity session is counted as "high intensity". Looking at time in zone doesn't work (for me).

So in this 6 week macro cycle (I am now in the 4th week) which culminates in a 6km OTW head race on October 8, most of my "other" sessions fall in the "Sweet Spot" range. I also have deviated quite a lot from 75/25 for this specific week. All the way to 40/60 in practice. I threw in more hard pieces, including a 6km OTW race simulation, which was quite educational. I hope I learn my lesson.

If I would be able to spend more time exercising, I would add endurance and recovery sessions, but I do believe that it is OK to deviate from the 75/25 rule as it may be the most effective way to get ready to race. It may not be the best way if I chose to spend more time rowing, but I don't.

So in summary I do deviate from 75/25 and sweet spot is on the menu in head race preparation.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:09 am

gregsmith01748 wrote:Tom,

Thanks for posting the link to the article. I think it looks like a pretty well designed study. The money chart for me is this one.
Image

The study conclusion is that short interval sessions drive improvements across the spectrum from peak power to beyond 40 minutes. From that perspective, it seems like a weekly sweetspot session is not necessary to yield the benefits. But in my gut I tend to agree with you, especially for head racing, that having regular training sessions that resemble race conditions is important to building mental toughness and to help you learn how hard you can push things. The thing that makes this a bit tougher is that training is a zero sum gain. Any session that you do as a sweetspot session will necessarily take away either from time training <2.0mmol or from the intense SI sessions. What do you sacrifice to add it in?

I guess my instinct would be to move the needle to 75% LIT and 25% HIT and include the sweetspot session as a HIT session.

Since this thread is coming back to life, a couple of questions.
1. You referred to the polarized split in terms of sessions (ie 20% of the sessions are intense intervals). I usually think of polarization in terms of total training minutes. In other words, if over a week, I had 100' of HIT and 300' of LIT, then my polarization is 25% / 75%. But in that week, probably half of the sessions are HIT sessions and half LIT sessions since the LIT ones are longer. What is the right way to add it up?

2. A more physiological session. I think I have a fundamental confusion that I am working through. We all do a ton of aerobic work below 2.0mmol/l to increase endurance. This mainly leans on the bodies ability to use fat as an energy source. The reason to avoid going too hard in endurance sessions is to avoid pushing beyond the crossover point where the body starts to increase the metabolism of CHO and decrease the metabolism of fat. SO far so good right? Here's my question...If we race at intensities way above where this crossover occurs, why the hell does it matter how well we can metabolize fat? That whole system is essentially shut down from the very first stroke. I have a theory that it might be related to endurance training causing an increase in mitochondria density, and then all those mitochondria can be used by the CHO cycle, but I really don't understand the processes well enough to explain to another person and I haven't seen any research or publication that covers this.
1) yes I agree ideally i should be tracking the time in mind in the zone, I think if I had an easier way to track it I would find it's close to that but I don't really trust hear rates for that since they are so variable and also affected by heart rate drift over a session that I just group the whole time doing the workouts as "UT2" or whatever

2) I know what you mean, the general impression I get is that it's quite hard to simply summarise what's going on in the muscles during excercise - certainly there is the aspect of getting the body to use fats as a fuel and I think that's one aspect, however like you say that's less part of the racing fuel supply - I tend to think more about how the thinking is that lactate is a fuel, not a waste product and previously thought, when training below the threshold you are actually helping train the muscles ability to use and clear the lactate from the muscle, the more you train this part the better the lactate clearing process becomes - fatigue seems to caused (or at least results in) a huge spike in lactate in the blood so I would think that means fatigue onset comes after the lactate clearing is overwhelmed so sub 2mmol training helps train to delay your lactate process being overwhelmed

Also the other factor is that we know that since polarised training is more rfffectie than just training at 2mmol all the time, that the high intensity workouts have an important factor to fitness, so by design in order to get the list out of the hiit workouts you have to do comparatively more of the sub 2mmol stuff to make sure you are fresh for the harder workouts where the most benefit comes from - don't slack off those hardest workouts!

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:52 am

stelph wrote: 2) I know what you mean, the general impression I get is that it's quite hard to simply summarise what's going on in the muscles during excercise - certainly there is the aspect of getting the body to use fats as a fuel and I think that's one aspect, however like you say that's less part of the racing fuel supply - I tend to think more about how the thinking is that lactate is a fuel, not a waste product and previously thought, when training below the threshold you are actually helping train the muscles ability to use and clear the lactate from the muscle, the more you train this part the better the lactate clearing process becomes - fatigue seems to caused (or at least results in) a huge spike in lactate in the blood so I would think that means fatigue onset comes after the lactate clearing is overwhelmed so sub 2mmol training helps train to delay your lactate process being overwhelmed

Also the other factor is that we know that since polarised training is more rfffectie than just training at 2mmol all the time, that the high intensity workouts have an important factor to fitness, so by design in order to get the list out of the hiit workouts you have to do comparatively more of the sub 2mmol stuff to make sure you are fresh for the harder workouts where the most benefit comes from - don't slack off those hardest workouts!
I agree with this. Here is what I get from Olbrecht's book in terms of the different training zones and what you are trying to achieve by training in that zone:

AEC - La 1-2 - increase/maintain VO2 max. Biologically: adaptations in slow-twitch fiber type I. More Mitochondria. Ineffective above a certain intensity because the adaptations change - i.e. body will move to fast twitch if you row too hard. An interesting comment in the book is that to stimulate increase of mitochrondria, you need to spice the long steady stuff with a limited amount of very short higher intensity stuff at the beginning of a session.

ANC - La 3-5 - Increase ability to produce lactate (PLamax) which forms the basis for the hard ANP rows

AEP - La 5-9 - Goal: Increase %VO2max at which you can do endurance. He remarks that you need about 6 weeks to see results of this training form and that most athletes do not recover well if they do more than 2 sessions per week of this type. I think this is what you call "Sweet Spot training". The training is done in preparation for the longer races (i.e. our head races or 5-10k tests)

ANP - La Max - Goal: Increase athlete toughness - his/her ability to perform at high blood lactate levels. Takes only 2 weeks to get results and is exclusively done in the race prep period.

For what it's worth.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:45 am

If aerobic and anaerobic training is close to optimal for the time someone has to train (volume simply can not be increased). Then peak power does become the limiting factor. Apart from taking 3 - 6 months off of rowing to focus on a seriously dedicated weights program to significantly increase peak power, is there another way to increase peak power say during a sub 2.0mmol or even 1.5mmol lactate workout? Push for tens full power low rate during a very long row would that do it?

Does anyone record how their peak power changes throughout a season? and can anyone link any increases to volume or type of workouts they are doing to increases in peak power? Is there a perfect workout that fits in with a polarised training program that would give best bang for you bucks to increase peak power?

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:50 am

zootMutant wrote:
gregsmith01748 wrote:But in my gut I tend to agree with you, especially for head racing, that having regular training sessions that resemble race conditions is important to building mental toughness and to help you learn how hard you can push things.
Interesting that you should mention that.....
Thanks for the reference, another interesting book that talks about the psycholgy around fatigue is iron war - its the history behind the beginning of ironman and Mark Allen and Dave Scott, its a very good book and I would recommend it for fun reading, but in particular there is one section which is talking about the mental toughness and references a study where they tested athletes with a max wattage test, then tested to exhaustion by telling them to hold a set wattage for as long as they could, when they eventually failed they immediately had a second max wattage test (as little rest between the two as possible) - the finding being they would always manage a greater wattage than that they were apparently unable to hold just before in the continuous test - showing both that the old thinking of how muscles fatigue to fail was incorrect and also how much psychology came into it, i.e. they "chose" to stop as they felt they couldn't take any more - its interesting reading

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:00 am

sander wrote:Interesting discussion and thanks for resurrecting it. I am scheduled to do a "2 speed lactate test" tomorrow.

In the past year I have been going quite along the lines of what Olbrecht writes in his book "The Science of Winning", but trying to tweak it to rowing and the distances we normally do. I do use periodisation, trying to aim at two things:

1. Train the specific type of fitness needed for the upcoming event (i.e. head race, or 1k sprints) or lay a base to build the specific fitness on (aerobic capacity)
2. Learn how my body (central governor) reacts in the specific conditions of such a race and try to maximize the outcome given the limited abilities of said body (central governor)

Knowing what is going to happen during a race is a key part of being successful, I believe. That's why we have race prep rituals. We are still nervous, anxious, excited, but the ritual helps channeling that into performing well. Also, it helps to know that the pain half way through a 1k OTW sprint is only lasting for 10 to 15 strokes and it is actually possible to push through it without reducing the pace.
Yes I noted Joe Friel talks about this as well on his post about high intensity duration towards the end

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2014/07/hi ... ation.html

The plan I outlined in the earlier post is physiologically the best for getting fit quick, but that as your race approaches you want to make sure you are training in a similar way to how you will eventually be racing - to me I would think that means early in the season doing the proper Polarised ideal plan as above, but for the Head season then shifting some workouts towards "sweet spot" training (i.e. 2 x 3k 24/26 etc) as you approach you main goal, and in the summer shifting some workouts towards longer intervals like 500m/1k at race rates
sander wrote:So for example, while I try to generally adhere to a target of "25% recovery sessions", "50% extensive endurance", the "25%" of "other" varies per week and macro cycle. I estimate percentage as a percentage of total training time in that week, where a warming up/cooling down for a High Intensity session is counted as "high intensity". Looking at time in zone doesn't work (for me).

So in this 6 week macro cycle (I am now in the 4th week) which culminates in a 6km OTW head race on October 8, most of my "other" sessions fall in the "Sweet Spot" range. I also have deviated quite a lot from 75/25 for this specific week. All the way to 40/60 in practice. I threw in more hard pieces, including a 6km OTW race simulation, which was quite educational. I hope I learn my lesson.

If I would be able to spend more time exercising, I would add endurance and recovery sessions, but I do believe that it is OK to deviate from the 75/25 rule as it may be the most effective way to get ready to race. It may not be the best way if I chose to spend more time rowing, but I don't.

So in summary I do deviate from 75/25 and sweet spot is on the menu in head race preparation.
Thanks for the summary, I agree the layout of your plan makes sense although I think my plan is to still keep the workouts quite extreme and simple as possible, so whilst keeping the long sub 2mmol workouts and short HIIT workouts - look to add workouts like 4 x2k or 2 x 3k etc at between 22-26 spm which I would expect is around that "sweetspot" - tho I can adjust that once power meters come out!

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:04 am

sander wrote: AEC - La 1-2 - increase/maintain VO2 max. Biologically: adaptations in slow-twitch fiber type I. More Mitochondria. Ineffective above a certain intensity because the adaptations change - i.e. body will move to fast twitch if you row too hard. An interesting comment in the book is that to stimulate increase of mitochrondria, you need to spice the long steady stuff with a limited amount of very short higher intensity stuff at the beginning of a session.

ANC - La 3-5 - Increase ability to produce lactate (PLamax) which forms the basis for the hard ANP rows

AEP - La 5-9 - Goal: Increase %VO2max at which you can do endurance. He remarks that you need about 6 weeks to see results of this training form and that most athletes do not recover well if they do more than 2 sessions per week of this type. I think this is what you call "Sweet Spot training". The training is done in preparation for the longer races (i.e. our head races or 5-10k tests)

ANP - La Max - Goal: Increase athlete toughness - his/her ability to perform at high blood lactate levels. Takes only 2 weeks to get results and is exclusively done in the race prep period.

For what it's worth.
Thanks Sander, more scientific there! Yes the sub 2mmol increases mitochondria, encourages increased blood flow to the muscles etc, essentially lays the foundations that the body can use in those maximal workouts

Does the book give details about how long workouts in each zone normally last for? I.e. would an AEP workout would be 20mins?

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:57 pm

stelph wrote: 1) yes I agree ideally i should be tracking the time in mind in the zone, I think if I had an easier way to track it I would find it's close to that but I don't really trust hear rates for that since they are so variable and also affected by heart rate drift over a session that I just group the whole time doing the workouts as "UT2" or whatever
What I've started to do is to just add up the high intensity minutes, and ignore the HR stuff for the purposes of seeing how polarized my training is. So on an endurance day, it's usually 75' of LIT. Today, I did 4 x ( 5 x 2' on /30" paddle) / 3' rest. We were on the water for about 90 minutes, so I logged it as 40' of HIT (4x5x2) and 50' of LIT.
2) I know what you mean, the general impression I get is that it's quite hard to simply summarise what's going on in the muscles during excercise - certainly there is the aspect of getting the body to use fats as a fuel and I think that's one aspect, however like you say that's less part of the racing fuel supply - I tend to think more about how the thinking is that lactate is a fuel, not a waste product and previously thought, when training below the threshold you are actually helping train the muscles ability to use and clear the lactate from the muscle, the more you train this part the better the lactate clearing process becomes - fatigue seems to caused (or at least results in) a huge spike in lactate in the blood so I would think that means fatigue onset comes after the lactate clearing is overwhelmed so sub 2mmol training helps train to delay your lactate process being overwhelmed

Also the other factor is that we know that since polarised training is more rfffectie than just training at 2mmol all the time, that the high intensity workouts have an important factor to fitness, so by design in order to get the list out of the hiit workouts you have to do comparatively more of the sub 2mmol stuff to make sure you are fresh for the harder workouts where the most benefit comes from - don't slack off those hardest workouts!
That makes a ton of sense, that you are both building more ability to process lactate. I think that helps to set a lower threshold for endurance training. You want to exercise at an intensity that is low enough so lactate does not accumulate, but at a high enough intensity that you are actually generating some lactate to be metabolized. Is that right?

I also certainly agree that recovery is another important part of the equation.
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