Lactate based training

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:35 pm

dr3do wrote:
valgozi wrote:My MLSS which is 2:17.0, 136 Watts, this keeps me under 2.0mmol no matter what day and was at the point last week where it may need moving up.
No. This is not your MLSS* (maximum lactate steady state). MLSS is highly individual and can be in the range of 2-8 mmol/L, but usually/often/commonly is found at 2.x-4.x mmol/L.

*= The maximal lactate steady state (MLSS) is defined as the highest blood lactate concentration (MLSSc) and work load (MLSSw) that can be maintained over time without a continual blood lactate accumulation.
Thanks Boris there are a lot of terms and I am continually confusing them. I have added a little edit so others don't make same mistake.

What should I call below 2.0 but great than 1.5mmol?

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:40 pm

valgozi wrote: What should I call below 2.0 but great than 1.5mmol?
Extensive Endurance training?
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:43 pm

sander wrote: [*] Does the low temperature slow down the enzymes on the test strip, such that they generate fewer ions between the electrodes, so that I get lower readings? My basement is 8 degrees C but it could be colder closer to the floor where I prepare the line of test strips. Outside temperature was around -2C. I could test that by doing a reading in my basement, then going up to the bed room and immediately doing a reading with a strip that has been kept at normal room temperature. The operating temperature of my tester is 4 - 40 C, according to the spec. [/list]
Definitely. 8°C is too cold for quality measurement. In winter time I erg in a cold room to, but immediately after finishing my exercise I "jump" out of the room and go into the corridor (has normal room temperature at about 18-20°C) where I do the measurement. Rule of thumb… lower temperatures give lower readings, higher temperatures give higher readings. Would suggest to change/adapt your procedure.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:55 pm

dr3do wrote:
sander wrote: [*] Does the low temperature slow down the enzymes on the test strip, such that they generate fewer ions between the electrodes, so that I get lower readings? My basement is 8 degrees C but it could be colder closer to the floor where I prepare the line of test strips. Outside temperature was around -2C. I could test that by doing a reading in my basement, then going up to the bed room and immediately doing a reading with a strip that has been kept at normal room temperature. The operating temperature of my tester is 4 - 40 C, according to the spec. [/list]
Definitely. 8°C is too cold for quality measurement. In winter time I erg in a cold room to, but immediately after finishing my exercise I "jump" out of the room and go into the corridor (has normal room temperature at about 18-20°C) where I do the measurement. Rule of thumb… lower temperatures give lower readings, higher temperatures give higher readings. Would suggest to change/adapt your procedure.
That sort of finishes lactate based training for me in winter. On the one hand you talk about doing the measurement within 30 seconds. On the other hand you ask me to jump off the erg, run upstairs to a heated room and do a finger prick and everything. :( :( That makes all this very impractical and silly and I refuse to do that.

Still, the study I referred to didn't see a big influence for strip temperatures down to 5 degrees C. I am going to do a test where I do two quick measurements at the end of a training, one with a cold strip and one with a warm strip.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:13 pm

sander wrote:
valgozi wrote: What should I call below 2.0 but great than 1.5mmol?
Extensive Endurance training?
Extensive is always looooong (>2-3h) and not more intense (and shorter).

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:22 pm

dr3do wrote:
sander wrote:
valgozi wrote: What should I call below 2.0 but great than 1.5mmol?
Extensive Endurance training?
Extensive is always looooong (>2-3h) and not more intense (and shorter).
Hm. We seem to be a little dogmatic here. No time to respond further. Need to do some actual training now.

Sorry if I come across as grumpy. My mood will soon get better
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:07 pm

For me time came to say goodbye. Was really a great time here with you. I wish you all the best of luck for the future and hope you all can improve like you like (and deserve). ^O^

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:03 pm

dr3do wrote:For me time came to say goodbye. Was really a great time here with you. I wish you all the best of luck for the future and hope you all can improve like you like (and deserve). ^O^
Boris, I suspect this is a reaction to my posts above. I reacted emotionally and too strongly for a public discussion forum, chose words that I shouldn't have. I will leave the post as is so it is clear what I am referring to. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Do please accept my apologies and stay on this discussion. Your posts have generally moved the discussion forward. You bring in interesting links and are very helpful. I have read a few books recommended by you and value your comments to my training blog.

As any new convert I am going through a cycle of too high expectations, frustration, disappointment, and will eventually end up with a realistic and balanced view. Probably expecting quick answers to complex questions etc. I can become quite emotional about my training, because as everyone I want to try and optimize it withing the (time) constraints I have. Over the past few years I have gone through a few training styles and ended up doing what I am doing. I am not claiming it is perfect but so far there has been progress. The question is if there could have been more progress or not. And if there is a suggestion that there could have been more progress, it is difficult for me to accept that.

On top of that I am quite frustrated because of other reasons, not at all related to these discussions. Again, I should have been more constructive and regret having posted what I have. A lesson learned.

Regarding lactate readings in low temperature. Tomorrow I will take a rest day. Thursday I will row a 60 minute steady state session, take 2 lactate readings with cold strips and then one with a warm strip. Let's see what the outcome of that is. I am deeply suspicious of my readings so far, but on the other hand I am not ready to believe that a medical device would not produce reasonable results a few degrees outside its guaranteed operating range ...
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:15 pm

Gee whiz, spend a day at work actually working and you miss all the action.

I see that this temperature stuff breaks down into 3 distinct areas. Meter accuracy, physiological response, and extremity blood flow.

Meter Accuracy over temperature
I don't have any data to support the claim that hand held lactate meters are sensitive to temperature.

My meter is specified to operate over a temp range of 5C to 45C.
Your meter (the CeraChek) is specified to operate over a range from 4C to 40C.

Two of the more popular applications of lactate measurement are cross country skiing and mountaineering, both of which happen in environments way colder than your beer cellar.

Physiological response versus temperature

I have seen strong correlation between lactate level and ambient temperature in my own data. Within the range of 5C to 35C, there is a monotonic relationship between the two. The higher the temperature, the more lactate I produce at a fixed power. I don't have any contradictory data. There is a stronger correlation between Temp and HR, but lactate goes up too. I am not exactly sure what the physiological underpinning are of this, but I might try to find out.

So, if you accept that this relationship exists, the question becomes...What do you do about it? I have decided to try to optimize my training environment by increasing airflow and being aware of the the temperature. So, I brought my own fan to the gym at work. I can't set the temp, but at least I have a breeze. At home I open the windows and use a fan. My objective is to achieve the highest possible training power while maintaining blood lactate below 2.0mmol/l.

In practice this means that I can push about 5 more watts at home than at work, at least during the fall and winter.

Extremity Blood Flow

The temps that I can achieve in my erg room have never been low enough that I feel like my fingers are going numb, and I generally feel like the work of holding onto the handle is enough to stimulate blood flow, but I am not someone who tends to get cold hands and feet, so other may have a different experience. If you suspect this is the case, you might try to perfect the art of stabbing yourself in the ear. I have never tried to do it since I have a vry sweaty head and the risk of sweat contamination seemed way to high.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:26 pm

valgozi wrote:
What should I call below 2.0 but great than 1.5mmol?
I don't know about you, but I call that "perfect" :wink:

There are so many terms and very little agreement about what they are and what they mean. I've come to simply call the power that yields 1.5 to 2.0mmol/l "steady state endurance power".
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:40 am

I have sent out a question to my rowing friend Arjan who is a biologist working at Johnson&Johnson in Belgium. He is not an expert on sport physiology but definitely has a more solid base knowledge than I.
From my work on liquid crystals I know a lot of research goes in to making substances (liquid crystals for LCD screens in this case) that have stable physical, chemical parameters at a large operating temperature range, plus can be stored at even more extreme temperatures. Think about leaving your smartphone in a car parked in the Arizona sun vs the Arctic winter in north Finland. We expect it to work and consumer pressure has led to results that are amazing.
I would expect the same from a consumer oriented lactate meter. The truth however is that the bulk of the money seems to be in glucose meters which are used by diabetes patients measuring in their warm homes ...
Tomorrow I will do my experiment.

As for the actual blood lactate concentration as a function of exercise room temperature. I guess most body enzymes are optimized to work at 37 C. I presume that in a healthy exercising athlete that is the temperature in the muscle and veins, plus or minus 1 degree. It may be that metabolism has to work harder to keep the temp up in colder rooms?

Greg, how big is the effect over the temperature ranges you work on?
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:50 am

dr3do wrote:For me time came to say goodbye. Was really a great time here with you. I wish you all the best of luck for the future and hope you all can improve like you like (and deserve). ^O^
Thank you for all your wisdom Boris. You are my Obi-Wan Kenobi of lactate! ^O^ ^O^ ^O^

The amount you have contributed is invaluable. Sorry if my inane questions and stupidity has contributed to you no longer wanting to take part in this thread. You have always been there to answer my questions (I still have lots) and correct me when I have got something wrong.

You have taught me a lot hopefully I can put what I have learned into practice, and help with my training.

Best of luck with your training also.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:14 am

Sander

The problem with the meter and strips needing to be warm is easy to fix surely just keep it warm, near a small heater, put it in a cool box with a hot water bottle with lid off so you can get to it quick? Just make sure it doesn't end up too hot. Blood is gonna be hot if it comes out so then all should be good?

Not being warm enough for blood to flow at your extremities properly is an issue. I can see this happening towards the 20mins (takes me 4k on the river to feel my hands, don't like gloves or poogees) but surely after 60mins or more you will be warm enough for it to be flowing ok?
I can send you some of my lancets if you want as they will make you bleed!
Only suggestion but I have no idea how people self test in this way (I guess good working in a mirror) could you try your ear lobe? If you can't get blood quickly I am not sure how this can be solved.

The erg room at my club is cooling and I know to watch for this now.

Really interesting aspect of trying a sub AeT row yesterday. My evening Threshold 30mins was easy!!! 2:07 split last week was horrible, 2:04 this week every thing was good, I should have maybe pushed harder but wanted to not over do it with race coming up HR was in about the right place too probably not threshold but will work towards this. Ballsed up the AeT row this morning just went a little fast in the last 15 mins, very difficult not to, 1.4mmol finish. Will see how these go by making them longer over the next few weeks.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:48 pm

sander wrote:
Greg, how big is the effect over the temperature ranges you work on?
I tried to tease it out of the data that I have but I don't record temperature so it is more from my recollection. I think I will buy a little digital thermometer and start recording it for each session.

I think my aerobic fitness is a bit weak. But what I notice in some sessions is that my HR and lactate do not plateau when it is warm, but instead continue to rise over the course of the session, even though I am at a training power that I have previously held with <2.0mmol/l lactates.

I'll try to track it more carefully, because I think it is a real effect.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:24 pm

valgozi wrote:Sander

The problem with the meter and strips needing to be warm is easy to fix surely just keep it warm, near a small heater, put it in a cool box with a hot water bottle with lid off so you can get to it quick? Just make sure it doesn't end up too hot. Blood is gonna be hot if it comes out so then all should be good?
Interesting suggestion. I will do my experiment this evening and this may be a practical solution.
valgozi wrote: Not being warm enough for blood to flow at your extremities properly is an issue. I can see this happening towards the 20mins (takes me 4k on the river to feel my hands, don't like gloves or poogees) but surely after 60mins or more you will be warm enough for it to be flowing ok?
I have been searching for literature on lactate in cross country skiers as a function of temperature. Here is a link:

https://www.asep.org/asep/asep/JEPonlin ... r_Malm.pdf

A quote from the article:
In study A, [la-]b was the same in A+20 and A-12. Lactate was analyzed immediately and 5 min after the
exercise test. One limitation is that during cold exposure peripheral vasoconstriction in the fingertip
may occur, lactate samples from the fingertip may therefore not be representative of the body as
whole (11). Jett et al. (11) suggests that when investigating metabolism or substrate utilization, the
influences of environmental conditions have to be controlled. Also, duration and intensity of cold
exposure at rest and prior to exercise, the degree of acclimation of subjects to cold conditions and the
clothing status of the subjects have to be standardized.


Personally I don't feel I have cold hands on the erg, compared to OTW rowing. On the lake in cold weather I go through phases of not feeling hands, then the very painful phase when the blood starts to flow again, and finally what I consider a normal state. None of that on the erg and even though the ambient temperature is low, I think my body and hand temperatures are quite normal.
valgozi wrote: I can send you some of my lancets if you want as they will make you bleed!
Only suggestion but I have no idea how people self test in this way (I guess good working in a mirror) could you try your ear lobe? If you can't get blood quickly I am not sure how this can be solved.
.
Been thinking about the earlobe but I would be afraid of sweat contamination. There is quite a few drops falling from my head during the rows. Your lancets, do they look like this?
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Last edited by sander on Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:52 pm

sander wrote: Your lancets, do they look like this?
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Ha ha not quite that big no -
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:37 pm

Here's an experiment I did today to look at the temperature dependence. Comments more than welcome.

I prepared two lactate strips in the cold (5-8 degrees C), next to the erg, and left two lactate strips in their container in the kitchen (21 degrees C).

Did a 2km warming up. I didn't feel top form, despite the resting day. I even suspect a light head cold may be coming up.

The original plan was to do a 60 minutes, but I convinced myself that my experiment would work at any lactate reading, so a 40 minute exercise would be OK.

I rowed for 40 minutes. It was not nice. My heart rate was higher than usual. It felt hard. I had to stop after 17 minutes to get my audio going again (a 30 second stop only, just switched from "lecture" to "radio").

Image

Average pace 2:03.7, 185W.

The plan was to do a lactate reading immediately after the row.

Unfortunately, when I stopped rowing, I got unbearable cramp in my right calf, so I spent the first minute in pain before I could start preparing for a lactate reading.

Image
20:22 After exercise. Cold strip. Cold meter.
I did an easy 1km in 2:19 pace and took another measurement.

Image
20:29 After cooling down. Cold strip. Cold meter.
Then I went upstairs to the kitchen and did a measurement immediately with one of the strips that had waited in the kitchen.

Image
20:30. Warm Strip. Cold Meter.
Then I washed my hands with warm water and did another measurement.

Image
20:32 Warm hands. Warm meter. Warm strip.
After that I took a hot shower. I mean hot. Really hot. I usually end showering by gradually lowering the water temperature until I shower off cold, to stop sweating. This time I didn't. After the shower I took a final measurement, from my second container. My 26th Lactate strip this week.

Image
20:48 Hot hands. Warm meter. Warm strip
In conclusion, I don't think it is detrimental to keep the strips at 5 degrees. I have to believe that my 26 lactate measurements of this week were real, at least to withing 0.5 mmol/L. I think the increase from 0.6 to 1.1 while I was standing in my kitchen can be explained by the muscle lactate being cleared, temporarily increasing blood lactate.

Still leaves unanswered the question what my good steady state intensity is. I am afraid 200W is too much, but let's see how I think about it a week from now.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:08 am

Have you tried the meter on someone not quite as aerobic as you?

I had a cold hand problem this morning. Testing resting before a row I could not get blood at all really so not sure I got a good reading :( (o.8mmol believable as I did a 30min PB last night (its not really a PB because split is slower than my 10k split) so over 20k in total so would expect low lactate first thing in morning) Started rowing and within about 2mins the hole start pissing blood everywhere.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:18 am

valgozi wrote:Have you tried the meter on someone not quite as aerobic as you?
Good point.
No I haven't tried it on someone else. But I have tried it on myself after a more intensive 10 minutes at 240W - gave a 4.8 mmol/L reading.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:48 pm

Today I did a 4x20 min steady state erg. I did the first 20 minutes at 180W, then 20 minutes at 200W, and the two final ones at 210W. Here are the data plotted over my lactate curve of last Sunday:

Image

Quite happy with that. Looks like the data are quite reproducable, even when comparing a 8x10min step test with a 4x20min session. Average heart rates are slightly higher, which can be natural fluctuation or just averaging over a longer time (longer plateau vs initial climb of heart rate).

I will settle for 200W for the coming week or two, measuring lactate at the end of steady state sessions.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:50 pm

valgozi wrote: Really interesting aspect of trying a sub AeT row yesterday. My evening Threshold 30mins was easy!!! 2:07 split last week was horrible, 2:04 this week every thing was good, I should have maybe pushed harder but wanted to not over do it with race coming up HR was in about the right place too probably not threshold but will work towards this. Ballsed up the AeT row this morning just went a little fast in the last 15 mins, very difficult not to, 1.4mmol finish. Will see how these go by making them longer over the next few weeks.
You have to tell us about your race. There is a thread on OTW results, so looking forward to read your post there. =D> =D>
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:53 am

sander wrote:
valgozi wrote: Really interesting aspect of trying a sub AeT row yesterday. My evening Threshold 30mins was easy!!! 2:07 split last week was horrible, 2:04 this week every thing was good, I should have maybe pushed harder but wanted to not over do it with race coming up HR was in about the right place too probably not threshold but will work towards this. Ballsed up the AeT row this morning just went a little fast in the last 15 mins, very difficult not to, 1.4mmol finish. Will see how these go by making them longer over the next few weeks.
You have to tell us about your race. There is a thread on OTW results, so looking forward to read your post there. =D> =D>
Ok will do later today. Not sure I can make it as interesting as Greg and your write ups.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:19 am

Nothing puts a smile on your face at the end of a 3x30min SS erg quite like a 0.5mmol lactate reading :D

Resting before start - 1.1mmol
30mins - 0.9mmol
60mins - Needed a wee, will measure tomorrow bladder permitting.
90mins - 0.5mmol - shock horror could it be right, was a good reading so I think so :D
With any science experiment it must be repeated, I wonder how it will go tomorrow.

So if I take my Friday Erg into account it seems my AeT break point, where I start using more lactate than I produce is somewhere after 60mins, unfortunately at quite a low intensity 110W. Interesting to see how this tracks over the next few weeks, how much can I push duration (I expect quite a bit) and or intensity (probably not so much). Will this break point change and say start happening after 30mins?

Can see me burning through my test strips and a load of meters figuring this out. Nice that its the C2 Holiday Challenge at the moment, I should end up with a good total.

These rows give you a weird buzz afterwards almost light headed but in a good way. I can quite easily say I have never worked out at such low intensities (in my 36 years) unless I've been out on a walk. I think my body is a little shocked that it doesn't have to smash glycogen.

Interesting to see how my 30mins around AnT goes tonight, I am thinking it will go quite well even though there's 18k in the legs.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by sander » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:35 am

valgozi wrote:Nothing puts a smile on your face at the end of a 3x30min SS erg quite like a 0.5mmol lactate reading :D

Resting before start - 1.1mmol
30mins - 0.9mmol
60mins - Needed a wee, will measure tomorrow bladder permitting.
90mins - 0.5mmol - shock horror could it be right, was a good reading so I think so :D
With any science experiment it must be repeated, I wonder how it will go tomorrow.
Yes I have read somewhere that, depending on what you do and eat before the session, lactate can actually go down during easy exercise. It will be interesting to see if you can push duration and/or intensity.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by valgozi » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:57 am

sander wrote: lactate can actually go down during easy exercise.
It's what I was aiming for :wink: been trying to get it for last 10 days.
sander wrote: It will be interesting to see if you can push duration and/or intensity.
How much can this level be trained to move everything up. You can't increase intensity because you then either have lactate levels that are increasing or in balance. So only way to train it as Boris has said and as is mentioned in the blog Ben posted and in the video I posted on here (although other places get lactate concentrations wrong, Boris didn't 1.5-2.0 is too high at least for me) is INCREASING DURATION, boring and difficult to fit in such long rows. This is why cyclists make good rowers going out for a loooooooooooooong ride ain't so boring.

Thinking that the row may not have any benefit until after 60mins is also a bummer. It will be difficult for me to see this without live data (not sure what dropping extra tests in after 60min might do to the workout) but the AeT breakpoint for me could actually be later than 60mins, say it was 85mins then this mornings row only had benefit (apart from being able to sit on a erg for longer) for 5 mins. I am hoping to see a drop at 60mins tomorrow but if like Friday there isn't, it means the breakpoint is after 60mins.

So 2 hours rows might be the only way to ensure a good training effect, and a monster 3 hours one once a week :? :(

Can I add I see nothing in my HR that suggests I am clearing lactate faster than making it, HR just seems to tick along. Running to the toilet at 60mins so I could get back before next interval started got me my highest HR today.

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