Lactate based training

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 »

dr3do wrote:
rhr wrote:Am keen to hear everyone's views.
Just to let you know… I've tried to read this article three times, but had always the feeling of "searching a needle in the hay". I'm not sure if I can find the point, within all this "generic/generalization text".
There are a couple of nuggets in the article that I found valuable / interesting / confusing...
1. The plot showing the amount of time to regain lost aerobic fitness. Skip a week, it takes 5 weeks to get it back. I had heard that but never seen the reference to original research (Booth, 1977 - wow, old reference!)

2. I can't really process the information in figure 2. It is basically saying that HIIT at 100% of VO2max is nearly twice as effective as training at 70% VO2max (just above 80% HRmax in terms of increasing mitochondrial density. If that were true, wouldn't everyone who trains long and slow would be beaten by HIIT folks at indoor competitions? I don't see that. I see that people who rack up the miles take home the medals.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do »

gregsmith01748 wrote:There are a couple of nuggets in the article that I found valuable / interesting / confusing...
1. The plot showing the amount of time to regain lost aerobic fitness. Skip a week, it takes 5 weeks to get it back. I had heard that but never seen the reference to original research (Booth, 1977 - wow, old reference!)
I agree to this point because a) I experienced it by myself (1 week of no training took about 3.5 weeks) and b) I observed it 2 other training mates (for one it took 6 weeks, for the other one it took 4 weeks). With strength training we experienced similar things, but there I had the feeling it takes shorter, for me about 1-2 weeks (for the others it was 1 week and 2 weeks).
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by rhr »

Gentlemen, a question:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12070617

I have noticed that some of you seem to hit your max HR during workouts. This isn't the case for me and many others as confirmed by the attached study. The test results are very similar to my personal experience. I've reach about MHR - 4 on the rower, maybe a bit closer once or twice.

My question - if my max HR on the rower is lower than when I run should I be adjusting my heart rate zones for training on the erg to reflect that difference?
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do »

rhr wrote:This isn't the case for me and many others as confirmed by the attached study. The test results are very similar to my personal experience. I've reach about MHR - 4 on the rower, maybe a bit closer once or twice.
Same same, but different: Compared to running, I have at rowing MHR of -10; on (indoor-)bike it was MHR -8.

For me, I think, I can't max out my HR due to torso (have very short one) compression – I before I can max out, I'm really out of air. While running I had a more "open posture" and breathing was easier.
My question - if my max HR on the rower is lower than when I run should I be adjusting my heart rate zones for training on the erg to reflect that difference?
If you train by heart rate zones, then yes.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 »

rhr wrote:Gentlemen, a question:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12070617

I have noticed that some of you seem to hit your max HR during workouts. This isn't the case for me and many others as confirmed by the attached study. The test results are very similar to my personal experience. I've reach about MHR - 4 on the rower, maybe a bit closer once or twice.

My question - if my max HR on the rower is lower than when I run should I be adjusting my heart rate zones for training on the erg to reflect that difference?
I guess the answer for me is that I have no idea what my maxHR is anywhere but the rower. I determined my maxHR initially through a step test on the erg as 182bpm. Through the course of the next 12 months as I trained and pushed harder, I "discovered" that my maxHR was actually higher than that, generally reached at during the sprint at the end of a middle distance piece. It is possible that I am underestimating my maxHR, or that my maxHR on the erg is lower than what I would see in another form of exercise.

One side note. I think I have noticed that my HR rises more easily to >95%HRR since the medication that I take for blood pressure was changed from an ACE inhibitor to a diuretic. I haven't noticed a change in maxHR though.

Directly to the point of your question, I have read that you should set your training zones with relationship to your MaxHR in the exercise that you are doing. So, I'd say you should use a erg maxHR to set training zones for the erg, but that's just my opinion.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by rhr »

Thanks for the responses guys.

Greg my understanding is also that one should use the specific sport Max HR. This makes sense as I have been finding that my HR for a given pace is below the "expected" value. On the other end of the spectrum I think I've been creeping into AN territory on some long intervals thinking I was still in the TR zone and simply just needed to HTFU when I was tiring faster than expected.

Changing my inputs slightly won't have a huge impact on UT2 / UT1 / AT as I have a fairly good handle on those exact numbers. Especially AT which the IP arbitarily sets at 85% HRR but in reality it is person specific. Based on observations I've made during my rows my AT / TR border is also around 3-4 bpm below my running border (88% - 89% of HRR).
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Re: Lactate based training

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gregsmith01748 wrote:2. I can't really process the information in figure 2. It is basically saying that HIIT at 100% of VO2max is nearly twice as effective as training at 70% VO2max (just above 80% HRmax in terms of increasing mitochondrial density. If that were true, wouldn't everyone who trains long and slow would be beaten by HIIT folks at indoor competitions? I don't see that. I see that people who rack up the miles take home the medals.
I dunno, isnt that more or less inline with the conclusions of most of the studies advocating Polarised training I had thought? Most talk about polarised training as Long and Slow 80% of the time with 20% (or less) training at close to 100% VO2 max brings the best results, also shown in the linked study below

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... raining%20
Gentlemen, a question:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12070617

I have noticed that some of you seem to hit your max HR during workouts. This isn't the case for me and many others as confirmed by the attached study. The test results are very similar to my personal experience. I've reach about MHR - 4 on the rower, maybe a bit closer once or twice.

My question - if my max HR on the rower is lower than when I run should I be adjusting my heart rate zones for training on the erg to reflect that difference?
[/quote]

I have different HR zones depending on the sport I am doing as well (cycling/running/rowing) so id agree with the conclusions in the study and that you should adjust zones, ideally using lactate testing if you can. I find my HR running goes higher than rowing from a perceived effort point of view and for cycling my HR is lower than rowing for perceived effort, tho for both cycling/running i'm not able to get as close to my Max HR as I can rowing, probably because my muscles are trained to be rowing specific (and I dont have the time to do that much cross training)
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do »

Hey guys, just out of curiosity… who of you is doing a (strict?) lactate based training and what are your strategies? :fsbgrin:
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 »

I am checking lactates about once every two weeks or so after a 20' steady state piece to see if they are below 2.0mmol.

I'm due for a test, probably tomorrow.

I use it as a rough guideline, not a strict limit.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do »

Thanks, Greg. Seems that we are the only one? Reading between the lines, maybe @stelph too. :-k
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Re: Lactate based training

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dr3do wrote:Thanks, Greg. Seems that we are the only one? Reading between the lines, maybe @stelph too. :-k
Well I have been trying to follow a lactate based training plan, using a lactate meter to judge the right intensity to do my longer zone 3/UT2 workouts, although only since around the middle of December, and only really properly since the 12th January as that was when I replaced my old lactate meter (which I was a bit suspicious might be miscalibrated) with a new one. At the start of the season I was following the Rojabo workouts but although I found it got me fit quick, I struggled a little with not being able to compare workouts over time and also fitting in the testing in and around the usual 2k's/5k's etc, plus I was worried from a couple of results that I was starting to underperform in testing/races showing signs of fatigue, so I decided to try a switch.

As mentioned im trying to follow the polarised plan but I think its not as polarised as it should be, mostly because at the weekends I am out rowing with the squad in 4's/8's doing sessions that I would class as Zone 2/UT1 rather than sticking either to zone 3 or zone 1, however during the week I am managing to do mostly UT2/Zone 1 sessions doing 3 x 20mins, with my protocol being to test the lactate after the first 20mins to check the intensity is right (i.e. make sure its below 2mmol), and from this I am seeing an upward trend in my watts at lactate, and have recently pulled a 2k P.B. (6.25) after several years of stagnating at around 6:27, so I am happy the training currently it seems to be working
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do »

Thanks for sharing, @stelph. And... congratulations! Wohooo!
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Re: AW: Lactate based training

Post by nervtoeter »

To find on your level 2 seconds wow really impressive! Good to hear that this change works for you. I'm thinking about a professional fitness test this spring, based on the results also to adapt the training.
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Re: AW: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do »

Hey @nervtoeter (BTW: great name 8) )
nervtoeter wrote:I'm thinking about a professional fitness test this spring, based on the results also to adapt the training.
Good idea! I would recommend to choose the performance lab carefully; most of them are doing very/too short steps of 3-4'. These results are generally too optimistic and not good/ideal to build up training recommendations; some of them then start to correct the results individually by their own formula. Generally: The short steps are only good to compare different athletes for diagnostic purposes or one athlete over time (to see if he/she has improved).

Try to find someone who has experience doing a "field test" (Feldstufentest) on rowing erg or uses 10' steps and is doing some proper anamnesis/clarification before testing (to find the right intensity to start with).

As you are german, here a link to a good explanation in german language.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dblinden »

Stelph - I found the opposite in regard to attaining max HR. The times I knew I hit my max was on a steep, sustained hill climb with total, all-out effort. Tunnel vision, gasping for air, and only weight of legs and gravity on pedals keeping me upright. Never the same on the flats or when sprinting and not close with running or rowing, but never tried running uphill with same intensity. On the erg, at a lowly 150 lbs, my strength gives out pulling the chain before my HR tops out.

I am trying to follow a polarized program on the erg (rowing is my only aerobic exercise now) and think that is the way to go. Comment - I think the biggest problem with it is not the plan, but the way most people likely implement it. Unless one is highly disciplined, the easy workouts are likely too hard and the hard workouts too easy. Most people cannot resist the urge to set PB's or put in higher perceived effort in order to derive personal value from the session. Thus, too many harder sessions each week. Also, the "hard efforts" are probably too long; 500-1000-2000 meter repeat pieces or tt's to really be able to get to max instead of shorter 30"-60" pieces with repeats and going to failure. It's not fun and it seems as hard mentally as it does physically.

Interesting topic to me.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 »

dblinden wrote: I am trying to follow a polarized program on the erg (rowing is my only aerobic exercise now) and think that is the way to go. Comment - I think the biggest problem with it is not the plan, but the way most people likely implement it. Unless one is highly disciplined, the easy workouts are likely too hard and the hard workouts too easy. Most people cannot resist the urge to set PB's or put in higher perceived effort in order to derive personal value from the session. Thus, too many harder sessions each week. Also, the "hard efforts" are probably too long; 500-1000-2000 meter repeat pieces or tt's to really be able to get to max instead of shorter 30"-60" pieces with repeats and going to failure. It's not fun and it seems as hard mentally as it does physically.
Hi, I agree with you that that successfully implementing a polarized plan requires a lot of discipline. My main problem is pushing too hard in the easy workouts.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the hard efforts are probably too long. I try to do one short interval session (1' to 3' intervals with lots of rest), one long interval session (5' to 10' with 3' to 5' rests), and one threshold session (15' to 60' continuous, hard). The logic is that each of these trains different energy systems. I'm not sure that just doing long easy sessions and intense short intervals would have the same training effect, but I'd like to learn more.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dblinden »

Greg - Exactly! Common sense would point to your conclusions and that is what most of us do. What research exists, however, indicates that short, hardest intensities yield as much or more training benefit than longer interval pieces.

I think there is another factor to consider. There are just a handful of truly elite athletes in any sport. They tend to be funded, supported, well-coached and free from other daily distractions. Their only purpose is to wring out the last bits of performance and tend to stay well focused on training goals. The rest of us just want to do the best we can because we want to, not because we have to. Having variety in training sessions makes it all more attractive, less boring or stale, and just generally more interesting. Thus, we tend to mix things up for all sorts of reasons.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 »

dblinden wrote:Greg - Exactly! Common sense would point to your conclusions and that is what most of us do. What research exists, however, indicates that short, hardest intensities yield as much or more training benefit than longer interval pieces.
Can you point me to this research?
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dblinden »

A study comparing Vo2 intervals at a more typical duration (4:30 on 2:15 rests) was compared to 30:15's. Identical volume of "work"/rest. At the end of the study the improvement in Vo2 and LT and time trial performance was ~2x as great with the short duration pieces. This likely due to the short intervals totaling 3x 9.5 minutes (work+active recovery<at 50% of work power>) such that subjects were probably right at V02 max effort for the last 1/3 of the set.


I think this is the reference, but will have to check again.

Bangsbo, J., T.P. Gunnarsson, J. Wendell, L. Nybo and M. Thomassen. 2009. Reduced volume and increased training intensity elevate muscle Na+/K+ pump {alpha}2-subunit expression as well as short- and long-term work capacity in humans. J Appl Physiol 107(6): 1771-80.
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Re: AW: Lactate based training

Post by nervtoeter »

dr3do wrote:Hey @nervtoeter (BTW: great name 8)

Good idea! I would recommend to choose the performance lab carefully; most of them are doing very/too short steps of 3-4'. These results are generally too optimistic and not good/ideal to build up training recommendations; some of them then start to correct the results individually by their own formula. Generally: The short steps are only good
Try to find someone who has experience doing a "field test" (Feldstufentest) on rowing erg or uses 10' steps and is doing some proper anamnesis/clarification before testing (to find the right intensity to start with).

As you are german, here a link to a good explanation in german language.
Thanks great link
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do »

dblinden wrote:A study comparing Vo2 intervals at a more typical duration (4:30 on 2:15 rests) was compared to 30:15's. Identical volume of "work"/rest. At the end of the study the improvement in Vo2 and LT and time trial performance was ~2x as great with the short duration pieces. This likely due to the short intervals totaling 3x 9.5 minutes (work+active recovery<at 50% of work power>) such that subjects were probably right at V02 max effort for the last 1/3 of the set.
In my language (german) I have found several published documents which double this.

E.g. short summary of this one:
Best training for vO2max is training at ≥95% VO2max for as long as possible. :twisted: :mrgreen:
With intermittent load pattern AKA intervals (work: 15 s @ 100% pVO2max | rest: 15s @ 70% pVO2max) they could train for 3:34±4:43 (min:s), but with continuous training @ 100% pVO2max only for 2:45±1:31 (min:s).

BTW: Welcome @dblinden! Really nice that you take part within this interesting discussion. Thanks fot that. ^O^
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Re: Lactate based training

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dblinden wrote:A study comparing Vo2 intervals at a more typical duration (4:30 on 2:15 rests) was compared to 30:15's. Identical volume of "work"/rest. At the end of the study the improvement in Vo2 and LT and time trial performance was ~2x as great with the short duration pieces. This likely due to the short intervals totaling 3x 9.5 minutes (work+active recovery<at 50% of work power>) such that subjects were probably right at V02 max effort for the last 1/3 of the set.


I think this is the reference, but will have to check again.

Bangsbo, J., T.P. Gunnarsson, J. Wendell, L. Nybo and M. Thomassen. 2009. Reduced volume and increased training intensity elevate muscle Na+/K+ pump {alpha}2-subunit expression as well as short- and long-term work capacity in humans. J Appl Physiol 107(6): 1771-80.
I looked through the abstract and this study appears to be a comparison of two groups of runners. The control group did endurance only training totally 55km per week. The test group reduced the endurance volume by 25% (so 41km) and added 3 or 4 sessions of 6 to 12 30 second sprints. The conclusion was that the performance of the group including the sprints was improved more than the control group.

So, I totally agree that a training plan that includes some high intensity sessions will work better than one that is entirely based on endurance training, but I am not sure that a training plan based only on 30 second intervals will work as well as one that includes other high intensity sessions, as long as the ration between high intensity and endurance sessions is maintained.

By the way, thanks for posting this and engaging in the discussion. I am very interested in understanding various training theories better and I'm eager to carry on the dialog.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph »

This study was done in trained cyclists (who looked to be quite fit already with good VO2 max scores and an experience with HIIT workouts already, going into this study all cyclists apparently already did one HIIT workout a week.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... d_approach

The cyclists were split into two groups, and both groups were set to do longer/endurance sessions and then two HIIT sessions a week with one group doing long intervals (4 x 5mins with 2.5 mins rest, with the rest being active rest at 50% wattage of what they were producing during the workout), the second did short intervals of 30 seconds with 15 seconds rest (again, "rest" being active rest), in 3 sets of 13 intervals with 3 mins active rest between sets. The way they ran the workout it seems like they were using the average wattage of each set (so work time and rest time) to see improvement over the weeks. They did this training for 10 weeks and in total the Short interval group average around 9 hours of exercise (including the Aerobic and Anaerobic work) and the Long interval around 11 hours

Interestingly,despite the short workouts and actually having done less overall work, at the end of the 10 weeks the short interval group had a greater improvement to their VO2 max (8.7% over 2.6%), a greater increase in their watts at 4mmol lactate (12% vs 5%) and also showed more improvement in the 30 second, 5min and 40 min tests than the long interval group. The study suggests that the reason the shorter intervals had such an improvement (and why it wasn't seen in other similar studies) could be down to:

- significantly shorter rest periods for the 30 second sprints (keeping your HR and lactate levels higher for longer with little time for recovery)
- Constantly stopping and starting the pieces allowing higher wattages to be reached, encouraging your muscles to develop more than the relatively lower wattages for longer pieces
- This study investigating the long term effects of the training (10 weeks), allowing the differences time to show through
- The fact the subjects were already quite fit, previously investigations on less fit athletes may have "fudged" previous studies results
Last edited by stelph on Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dblinden »

Stelph - Thanks for the corrected reference. I should have verified before posting it. Since I retired (last month) everything is just a blur.

Greg - I share the same interest. I just wish I could reap some benefit for my performance.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by stelph »

So currently most of the studies and data presented in this thread have pointed towards Polarised training (80% of time training at sub 2mmol with 20% of time doing High Intensity Interval training) being more beneficial than Threshold training (training at or just below 4mmol), I thought it was worth also highlighting this study which shows potential benefits for also adding in Block Periodisation

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... d_cyclists

Block periodistation is described as when the training is done in “blocks” where the intensity is varied week on week and then repeated over time, so that you are overstressed for one week then given time to recover over the next few weeks.. In the above study a group of trained cyclists split into two groups where one followed what looks like a normal Polarised plan (9 hours a week, 80-90% in Zone 1) for 4 weeks, where as the other group did a Block Polarised plan where 3 weeks were light (even lighter the other hroup than 9 hours a week 90-5% Zone 1) and then one week of brutality (only 5 hours of training but 60% of that time in Zone 2+3). Tests were done before and after the 4 weeks, and the outcome was the Block Periodisation group increased their Vo2 max by 4.6%, Max power output 2.1% and Power output at 2mmol 10%, where as the traditional Polarised group did not show the same level of improvement

My own thoughts on this and how it fits in with the other studies posted before:

• This study didn’t take into account the benefits seen with shorted HIIT pieces, instead sticking with longer pieces at a 2:1 ratio, like 6 x 5mins with 2.5min rest, possibly explaining why the traditional training didn’t do quite as well (HIIT not intense enough)
• 4 weeks is a lot shorter than the previous studies looked into, again possibly explaining why traditional didn’t see a large amount of improvement
• The intense week sounds really intense, with very little rest for the 7 days and at such a high intensity I could see risk of burnout or illness being quite high, so this kind of Periodisation would probably only be a good idea for someone looking for fitness very quickly, someone already very fit or someone seeing a stagnation in their fitness improvement which is in line with what I have read about Block Periodisation in cycling circles
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