Lactate based training

[sander]

The calculation could be added to Danburpee's famous spreadsheet for those of us rowing on RowPro

[gregsmith01748]

I've been puzzling out how to do that. It's a bit tough with variable length intervals and stuff.

[valgozi]

Ok so I have been unable to find anything on google about studies or anything to do with HR Coupling Drift % apart from the one Stelph shared (2008) and another referencing Joe Friel again (2011) - http://www.mikepapageorge.com/ultra/decoupling

Do we know if this is something that performance teams monitor at all?

Interesting from last two 3x20mins, can see straight away day to day difference in HR
Yesterday - 1st Half Average HR 146 - 2nd Half Average HR 157 - Drift % = 2.99%
Today - 1st Half Average HR 141 - 2nd Half Average HR 149 - Drift % = 1.19%
Ending lactate for both was 1.5mmol, added a single Watt to the power today because I know I can go a tiny bit faster on a Wednesday

Managed a 30mins last night probably around or above AnT (looking at HR) - Drift % = 7.88%

[sander]

As you have probably grabbed from my increased posting here, I am going to be part of the Lactate religion as well. My device is in the UPS and I am about to get a lancing device.

Then it's finger pricking. Hurray. Before that, I intend to reread this entire thread ...

For the moment, any good lancing device you could recommend? It seems that locally available are the following:
- AccuCheck SoftClix
- Beurer ?
- FreeStyle Mini
- Wellion Pro

Is the choice of lancing device important at all? I'd hate to waste the first few measurement attempts because I got the wrong lancing device.

[gregsmith01748]

I don't have an opinion about lancets other than the one I'm using seems to work pretty well. I use a universal lancet device with BD lancets.

You should look through this thread for some testing advice: http://www.rowingillustrated.com/boards ... ate#p99826

I suggest that you "waste" one or two strips by doing your first tests sitting at a table at rest, not after doing steady state and trying to get it done on the clock. It takes a little practice to get the stick right, and to go through the steps of wiping off the first drop, getting the strip in the meter, getting another drop and touching the strip with just the drop.

Luckily, the master of all things lactate "mchase", posted a video on youtube showing how they do the tests.



It is referenced from this thread over on RI. http://www.rowingillustrated.com/boards ... tate+video

[valgozi]

That is a good sized drop of blood in the video. As long as the lancets you are using produces something similar you should get good readings.

The single use 'comfort' lancets I had sometimes didn't prick good enough so no where near that amount of blood came out. They would kind of slash rather than stab. it meant that not much blood and it would spread out rather than form a drop.

Unistik Comfort - 28 gauge lancet 1.8mm - Didn't get on with these
Unistik Normal - 23 gauge lancet 1.8mm - Maybe aim for something similar to this.
Unistik Extra - 21 gauge lancet 2.0mm - Pissing blood everywhere with these things, end of 2k I couldn't stop the bleeding. Great if you have really hard skin on the ends of your fingers, over kill if not. Weirdly though maybe actually less pain from the prick.
http://www.owenmumford.com/en/wp-conten ... eaflet.pdf

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This is a good lactate video -

[stelph]

Interesting finding during last nights erg, a 2 x 30mins with a lactate test during and at the end. Before I started I was feeling slightly fatigued with a mild sore throat (something I feel I have got over already) and so I was expecting (and got) two higher readings than I had had earlier in the week (1.7 and then 2.5), but the interesting point was that calculating the coupling showed this was also over the 5% value at 6.9% so also backed up the lactate test in suggesting the pace was a little too tough for that session, this being despite my HR value not actually being that high relative to previous sessions

(e.g. last wednesday I had HR avg of 145 then 150 bpm - coupling value 2.5% and lactates low at 1.5 both times
this wednesday I had HR avg of 139 then 148 bpm - coupling value 6.9% and lactates high at 1.7 and 2.5)

It may just have been a lucky one off, but it certainly suggests the coupling values use in "double checking" your lactate test results for situations where you may question your test results

[gregsmith01748]

Interesting finding during last nights erg, a 2 x 30mins with a lactate test during and at the end. Before I started I was feeling slightly fatigued with a mild sore throat (something I feel I have got over already) and so I was expecting (and got) two higher readings than I had had earlier in the week (1.7 and then 2.5), but the interesting point was that calculating the coupling showed this was also over the 5% value at 6.9% so also backed up the lactate test in suggesting the pace was a little too tough for that session, this being despite my HR value not actually being that high relative to previous sessions

(e.g. last wednesday I had HR avg of 145 then 150 bpm - coupling value 2.5% and lactates low at 1.5 both times
this wednesday I had HR avg of 139 then 148 bpm - coupling value 6.9% and lactates high at 1.7 and 2.5)

It may just have been a lucky one off, but it certainly suggests the coupling values use in "double checking" your lactate test results for situations where you may question your test results

I agree with that. I think drift is a much better substitute than absolute HR as a double check or boat based substitute.

For me if the drift from 40' to 60' is higher than 3%, I now pretty much expect to see a reading above 2.0.

When I'm on the water next spring, I think i will try to note my HR at the end of each steady state piece (around 15 minutes) figure what 3% higher would be, and use that as a cap for the next piece. I might even print out a little cheat sheet and tape it to the toe of my shoe.

[valgozi]

When I'm on the water next spring, I think i will try to note my HR at the end of each steady state piece (around 15 minutes) figure what 3% higher would be, and use that as a cap for the next piece. I might even print out a little cheat sheet and tape it to the toe of my shoe.

Stelph maybe you need to message OarInspired to include this in their set up? They would have power and HR to hand so after rowing for 'X' amount of time maybe it can show if its below 5% HR coupling or not?!

[stelph]

When I'm on the water next spring, I think i will try to note my HR at the end of each steady state piece (around 15 minutes) figure what 3% higher would be, and use that as a cap for the next piece. I might even print out a little cheat sheet and tape it to the toe of my shoe.

Yes it would be an easier metric to track on the water than lactate, although the tricky thing with tracking coupling on the water would be tracking the wattages (at least until the power meters arrive), your heart rate may drift by more than 5% value in the second half of the workout, but if there has been an increase in wattage in the second half it may not mean you are overworking it

[stelph]

When I'm on the water next spring, I think i will try to note my HR at the end of each steady state piece (around 15 minutes) figure what 3% higher would be, and use that as a cap for the next piece. I might even print out a little cheat sheet and tape it to the toe of my shoe.

Stelph maybe you need to message OarInspired to include this in their set up? They would have power and HR to hand so after rowing for 'X' amount of time maybe it can show if its below 5% HR coupling or not?!

Ive got a running list of things I would like them to implement, trust me! I think at this stage we should just let them get on with finalizing and building the devices and then bombard them with software features once they are out in the wild

[AndyMcL]

Jumping in here because I'm interested in making the jump to training with lactate. Ideally using myself as a test subject, and then applying the experience to those that I coach. What do you guys recommend as a starting package? Any particular devices that are better than others, and anything needed besides a tester, lancets, and strips?

Thanks for your help! This discussion has been very educational.

[valgozi]

Andy

Where abouts are you? USA or Europe?

[AndyMcL]

Andy

Where abouts are you? USA or Europe?

USA

[gregsmith01748]

Start at lactate.com

[AndyMcL]

Thanks for the help! I'm looking into the Lactate Plus package.

Edit: And, Greg, I'm a big fan of your blog. Very well thought out.

[sander]

I just completed a reading of all posts in this great thread. Nothing to add but a recap of what I think are the established beliefs/facts here:

1. Most of us support a polarized training plan with block periodization. We acknowledge that there may be individuals who respond better to threshold training

2. Measuring lactate is not ideal but better than subjective feeling or heart rate in determining effective steady state power levels in the framework of polarised training

3. Best results are obtained by rigidly following an established protocol (after 20 or 60 minutes) on a set day of the week.

4. Measure too often and you risk oscillating between training power levels because you are adjusting your training to 'noise', not long term adaptations. Better is to move up in power when you 'own' it by consistently being below 1.6, and 'lose' the right to train at that level when you are consistently above 2.0

4. Other fun tests can be done if you like pain and want to measure progress. Simple full out 2k and 6k tests may be just as good though.

Wow. I've come quite a long way from what our coaches told us in the 1980s. Muscle pain (DOMS), I was told, is lactic acid (melkzuur) causing the muscles to hurt. Ah, scientific progress!

It all makes Sense and looks plausible. Still there is a risk of lactate voodoo when you start using lactate measurements.

Did I miss any important point?

[gregsmith01748]

Welcome to the lactate vampire cult!

I agree with all your points. I think lactate testing is useful to make sure that steady state is done at a reasonable intensity and not Much more. I am not sure I have seen evidence of an athlete responding better to threshold versus polarized training. All I can say is I've seen some respond to threshold training. It may be that they would have done even better on a polarized plan.

I think that time trials are more useful for all other measures like peak power, VO2max, and AnT.

I do recommend a couple of long duration lactate trials to get a good understanding of how you respond during endurance sessions. I suggest a session where you test after 10' pieces and ramp power by 5 watts each piece, maybe for 8 pieces. And a second where you hold the power you think is right for steady state for 80' and test every 20'. After that a single test at 60' should be enough to check intensity.

[sander]

thanks. Anyone know this book?

[valgozi]

Week 3

• Monday: 1.0h (60') - active recovery, slightly below AeT

• Tuesday: 1.5h (90') - LOW, slightly below AeT

• Wednesday: 1.0h (60') - active recovery, slightly below AeT

• Thursday: 1.0h (60'), incl. warmup/-down - HIGH, short ones (20-30") at ≥90% VO2max or 90-95% HRmax, but longer ones (4-5') only slightly above AnT

• Friday: 1.0h (60') - active recovery, slightly below AeT

• Saturday: 3.0h (180') - LOW, slightly below AeT

• Sunday: rest day (some soul and body relaxing activities, meeting family/friends or whatever does fit into you needs; "HR cap" at twice RHR; good regular eating every 4h; try to avoid alcohol as it reduces recovery rate)

• Aerobic threshold (AeT): This is a relatively low level of intensity marked by light breathing and the feeling that you could maintain the effort for a few hours. It occurs at about 60%-70% of your aerobic capacity or at about 60-80% of max heart rate or around 80% of lactate threshold. A ballpark way of determining your aerobic threshold is to subtract 30 beats per minute from your lactate threshold (see below) heart rate. In a sport science lab aerobic threshold is usually defined as the intensity at which lactate just begins to accumulate.

• LOW >1.5h (>90'): You can spice the them up, by doing every 20' a 5" max speed burst sprint.

• For many athletes, the ‘train low, train high’ mantra requires a mindset change, forcing them to think about things differently. Perceptions such as ‘base is easy now’, ‘I can relax knowing I don’t have to keep up with other people’ or ‘It’s now more enjoyable but also more effective’, are typical when people finally get what the elites already know.

• The bottom line here is that even though polarized training has repeatedly been shown to produce the greatest improvements, how you train throughout the year must be seen in a far broader perspective. Smart training is not an either-or proposition. You don't just train one way or the other throughout the entire season.

[/color]

Cheers,

Been getting some good lactate numbers this week with very little day to day variation so I am pleased
I have my home head race next weekend 4k upstream in a 1x, so this morning thought I would try a below AeT erg (ala Boris from page 12 of this thread) something I will do next Friday to hopefully freshen the legs from a weeks training ready for the race on Saturday.

I may have failed or did I.......dropping 5seconds/500m on the split I was expecting to see 1.0mmol or below but still only got 1.4mmol after 20mins and 1.4mmol after 60mins. So there was no accumulation of lactate so I could have possibly been at or around AeT. I did struggle in the middle to keep the pace slow where this resulted in a slight rise in HR but towards the end this really came under control, Stelph HR drift was 0.5%. Got to say I don't think I have ever done a workout at HR's this low. It had the effect I wanted legs feel good. HRV has been dropping throughout the week so will see how it has effected that tomorrow morning.

The analysis from the Polar Flow H7 post workout -

Training Benefit - Basic training, long
This training improved your general base fitness and basic aerobic endurance, and boosted your metabolism. Your body's ability to store oxygen within the cardio system and muscles improved. Because the training session was long, effects are expected to be stronger. Fat is the main energy source that your body uses at this training intensity, thus preserving your glucose storages.

Had a bit of a laugh with a bit of free erg software last night. It tracks the power curve and so can give advise on what you are doing during the drive either correctly or wrongly from the idea of the 'perfect' stroke I assume. 3 of us at the club having play seeing how many strokes it took to get it to tell us we did a 'Perfect Stroke'. I managed 4 but was beaten someone did it in 3. Quite funny seeing the frustration when you can't get it correct. Definitely worth having a play with - http://ergometer-space.org

[stelph]

I may have failed or did I.......dropping 5seconds/500m on the split I was expecting to see 1.0mmol or below but still only got 1.4mmol after 20mins and 1.4mmol after 60mins. So there was no accumulation of lactate so I could have possibly been at or around AeT. I did struggle in the middle to keep the pace slow where this resulted in a slight rise in HR but towards the end this really came under control, Stelph HR drift was 0.5%. Got to say I don't think I have ever done a workout at HR's this low. It had the effect I wanted legs feel good. HRV has been dropping throughout the week so will see how it has effected that tomorrow morning.

It could be that 1.4mmol is your natural level of lactate, from memory I have never seen a value lower than 1.2mmol even when I have done a workout that results in 1.2mmol and have backed off the wattage (which I wouldve expected to result in lower lactate), not actually sure what my "at rest" lactates are!

[sander]

Had a bit of a laugh with a bit of free erg software last night. It tracks the power curve and so can give advise on what you are doing during the drive either correctly or wrongly from the idea of the 'perfect' stroke I assume. 3 of us at the club having play seeing how many strokes it took to get it to tell us we did a 'Perfect Stroke'. I managed 4 but was beaten someone did it in 3. Quite funny seeing the frustration when you can't get it correct. Definitely worth having a play with - http://ergometer-space.org

Interesting software. I tried it out. Joined a team room of Orca, my old club. Nobody there. Does the software save the workout data?

[valgozi]

I may have failed or did I.......dropping 5seconds/500m on the split I was expecting to see 1.0mmol or below but still only got 1.4mmol after 20mins and 1.4mmol after 60mins. So there was no accumulation of lactate so I could have possibly been at or around AeT. I did struggle in the middle to keep the pace slow where this resulted in a slight rise in HR but towards the end this really came under control, Stelph HR drift was 0.5%. Got to say I don't think I have ever done a workout at HR's this low. It had the effect I wanted legs feel good. HRV has been dropping throughout the week so will see how it has effected that tomorrow morning.

It could be that 1.4mmol is your natural level of lactate, from memory I have never seen a value lower than 1.2mmol even when I have done a workout that results in 1.2mmol and have backed off the wattage (which I wouldve expected to result in lower lactate), not actually sure what my "at rest" lactates are!

Sadly I think I have tested my resting 4 times

When I got the meter I couldn't wait to try it and did it post OTW by almost 2 hours 1.0mmol and after having eaten 1.5mmol.

I have tested since in the afternoon and got 1.1mmol and 1.3mmol. I know the lactate meter goes down to 0.5mmol so I was hoping for something quite low. I saw 0.9mmol the other day after 20mins with a slow start for warm up. Although remember Boris said accuracy at the very low end is not great.

1.5mmol is therefore the highest resting. I was fasted today so I would not expect to have had a quite as high lactate as 1.4mmol.

[valgozi]

Had a bit of a laugh with a bit of free erg software last night. It tracks the power curve and so can give advise on what you are doing during the drive either correctly or wrongly from the idea of the 'perfect' stroke I assume. 3 of us at the club having play seeing how many strokes it took to get it to tell us we did a 'Perfect Stroke'. I managed 4 but was beaten someone did it in 3. Quite funny seeing the frustration when you can't get it correct. Definitely worth having a play with - http://ergometer-space.org

Interesting software. I tried it out. Joined a team room of Orca, my old club. Nobody there. Does the software save the workout data?

No can't see it saves data, shame really. Talks about widgets so maybe that is something that might follow. If it did its almost a Row Pro competitor.

Come on then Sander how many strokes until you got a 'Great Stroke'?
If anyone gets it on the first I will be annoyed!! and you may find me constantly take one stroke on an erg until I do.

[sander]

So I got my meter and rushed to the shop with health/medical equipment to get my lancing device. Turns out that in the store they only had a lancing device of one brand and the lancets of another brand. So I bought the accu-chek and ordered lancets. They will arrive on Tuesday. In the meantime I have wasted two strips trying to stab my self with a sterile needle. Got an error reading and no reading. I guess too small drops of blood. Frustrating. I was hoping to do a steady state testing on Sunday.