Lactate based training

[gregsmith01748]

On a slightly different tack. I was rereading some of the stuff posted over on rowing illustrated and my jaw nearly hit the floor.

http://rowingillustrated.com/boards/vie ... d8#p100938

I had no idea that the consumption of carbohydrates could impair lipolysis, and lead to elevated lactate levels. "Bloomp" posted this graph:



Basically, that fat oxidation is optimized only after an 8 hour fast. The graph is based on consuming 140g of carbohydrate, which is a pretty big serving, like 2 full cups of spagetti with sauce, but still.

My routine during the week has been to drink a big coffee, and eat a raisin bread and nutella sandwich, which has about 50 to 60g of carbohydrate on my drive to the gym, so no more than an hour prior to exericising. It looks to me that I should probably abstain from that on my steady state days because it could be impacting my ability to metabolize fat by more than 30%.

So, I started that experiment today. I just had the coffee (milk, no sugar) and skipped my little carbo-bomb. I didn't have any test strips with me, but from a heart rate perspective, I was significantly better than other similar session.

So, what are your opinions about this? It looks kinda legit to me.

[gregsmith01748]

Block periodistation is described as when the training is done in “blocks” where the intensity is varied week on week and then repeated over time, so that you are overstressed for one week then given time to recover over the next few weeks.. In the above study a group of trained cyclists split into two groups where one followed what looks like a normal Polarised plan (9 hours a week, 80-90% in Zone 1) for 4 weeks, where as the other group did a Block Polarised plan where 3 weeks were light (even lighter the other hroup than 9 hours a week 90-5% Zone 1) and then one week of brutality (only 5 hours of training but 60% of that time in Zone 2+3). Tests were done before and after the 4 weeks, and the outcome was the Block Periodisation group increased their Vo2 max by 4.6%, Max power output 2.1% and Power output at 2mmol 10%, where as the traditional Polarised group did not show the same level of improvement

My own thoughts on this and how it fits in with the other studies posted before:

• This study didn’t take into account the benefits seen with shorted HIIT pieces, instead sticking with longer pieces at a 2:1 ratio, like 6 x 5mins with 2.5min rest, possibly explaining why the traditional training didn’t do quite as well (HIIT not intense enough)
• 4 weeks is a lot shorter than the previous studies looked into, again possibly explaining why traditional didn’t see a large amount of improvement
• The intense week sounds really intense, with very little rest for the 7 days and at such a high intensity I could see risk of burnout or illness being quite high, so this kind of Periodisation would probably only be a good idea for someone looking for fitness very quickly, someone already very fit or someone seeing a stagnation in their fitness improvement which is in line with what I have read about Block Periodisation in cycling circles

I think Steve Roedde used block periodization in the run up to his setting a bunch of records last year. If I am remembering right, he reported the intense weeks as pretty brtual, but the results were quite strong. (of course, he's an animal anyway, but...). I have also seen in strength training programs the concept of inserting "back off weeks" into the schedule. Also, Rojabo measures weekly intensity and varies it to peak the loading a couple weeks prior to competition and reduces it periodically (from insanely tough to just really tough).

I'll have to read the referenced paper and think about it some more, but I think the idea of specifically varying training intensity through regular periods is a really good idea, especially if you are a year round erger or rower.

[dr3do]

Nice input @stelph

SHPL (Swiss Health & Performance Lab, University of Berne) published some good stuff (unfortunately only in german language) about "block periodization". So… I'll do a short transcribed summary… Two possible ways "intense block" (needs to be dedicated and is brutal, but gives best results) and "mixed training block" (fits often better in daily training/life routine).

"intense block"

Block duration: 1-2 weeks
Blocks per year: 1-3
Sessions: 10-15 ^= 2 sessions per day
Session layout: 10-15x 30s (90-95% HRmax, clearly above anaerobic threshold) : 30s active recovery (Z1) | 10-20x 15s (90-95% HRmax, clearly above anaerobic threshold) : 15s active recovery (Z1) | 4x 4' (1. rep 90%, 4. rep 95% HRmax, slightly above anaerobic threshold) : 3' active recovery (Z1)
Rest days: 1-3 per block
Other training: only to maintain/keep the level
Best time of benefit: 5-10 days after block
VO2max increase: 0.3-0.6% per session


"mixed training block" (differences)

Block duration: 6-8 weeks
Sessions: 2 sessions per week
Other training: business as usual, but mostly within Z1

To maintain the benefit of this "loading blocks" they recommend to these interval sessions 1x per week.

[stelph]

On a slightly different tack. I was rereading some of the stuff posted over on rowing illustrated and my jaw nearly hit the floor.

http://rowingillustrated.com/boards/vie ... d8#p100938

I had no idea that the consumption of carbohydrates could impair lipolysis, and lead to elevated lactate levels. "Bloomp" posted this graph:



Basically, that fat oxidation is optimized only after an 8 hour fast. The graph is based on consuming 140g of carbohydrate, which is a pretty big serving, like 2 full cups of spagetti with sauce, but still.

My routine during the week has been to drink a big coffee, and eat a raisin bread and nutella sandwich, which has about 50 to 60g of carbohydrate on my drive to the gym, so no more than an hour prior to exericising. It looks to me that I should probably abstain from that on my steady state days because it could be impacting my ability to metabolize fat by more than 30%.

So, I started that experiment today. I just had the coffee (milk, no sugar) and skipped my little carbo-bomb. I didn't have any test strips with me, but from a heart rate perspective, I was significantly better than other similar session.

So, what are your opinions about this? It looks kinda legit to me.

It's intereting stuff, personally I think you should train in the condition you would plan to race in, so if you think you would race without snacks then train mostly in the same state, I'd avoid trying to reduce lactate levels by fasting but race well fed as if there is a connection between food and lactate levels then the difference in racing well fed may mean you underperform?

[gregsmith01748]

It's intereting stuff, personally I think you should train in the condition you would plan to race in, so if you think you would race without snacks then train mostly in the same state, I'd avoid trying to reduce lactate levels by fasting but race well fed as if there is a connection between food and lactate levels then the difference in racing well fed may mean you underperform?

I agree with that to a certain extent. If the purpose of steady state sessions is to achieve the maximum power possible with a lactate level below 2.0mmol/l, which is basically indicative of sticking to mostly the metabolism of fat, and doing the sessions in a fasted state enables you to push that power higher, I think that's a good thing.

In harder sessions, like intervals or races, since you are going to be utilizing all energy systems, I would think that you would want to have your muscle glycogen topped up so you can produce gigantic amounts of lactate.

The right thing to do would probably be to consume some carbohydrate about 4 hours prior to competition so that insulin levels have dropped before the event, but glycogen is replenished.

One other unrelated note...I did a 20' test at 190W, and had a lactate reading of 1.7mmol/l. So, basically, I will maintain about that power for the next few sessions. Then I did the 20' CTC, and for fun, I measured lactates right after that.

15.7mmol/l

I had just spent about 5 minutes over the edge into the Anaerobic zone.

[dr3do]

If the purpose of steady state sessions is to achieve the maximum power possible with a lactate level below 2.0mmol/l, which is basically indicative of sticking to mostly the metabolism of fat,

Nope. With around 2 mmol you already metabolize additional carbs. Strict fat metabolism is way lower (but depends on what you have eaten). Rule of thumb… the lowest lactate level (valley) after initial lactate bump, short after begin of session.

Then I did the 20' CTC, and for fun, I measured lactates right after that.

15.7mmol/l

Uhhh… That did hurt.

[gregsmith01748]

So I did another 20' lactate test today to start building a database of lactate and HR.

7 Feb: 190W, 19spm, 138.3bpm (66.9% HRR), 1.7 mmol/l
8 Feb: 190W, 19spm, 134.8bpm (64.4%HRR), 1.8mmol/l

(HR is avg for the last 5 minutes of the 20' test)

Interesting seeing the lactate higher and HR lower. I think I will need a fair amount of data to figure out how much noise there is in the readings and what trends exist.

[dr3do]

Greg, for my personal use I've setup a simple Google Sheets Document, where I track my readings over time. This way I can see if have improved. If you like I can share it (via G+) with you, so don't need to build it up from scratch.

[stelph]

So I did another 20' lactate test today to start building a database of lactate and HR.

7 Feb: 190W, 19spm, 138.3bpm (66.9% HRR), 1.7 mmol/l
8 Feb: 190W, 19spm, 134.8bpm (64.4%HRR), 1.8mmol/l

(HR is avg for the last 5 minutes of the 20' test)

Interesting seeing the lactate higher and HR lower. I think I will need a fair amount of data to figure out how much noise there is in the readings and what trends exist.

I tend to find a lot of "noise" with heart rate, for example last week I had three days where I did 3 x 20 mins and on each I had the same wattage but for one of the workouts my HR was an average 16bpm higher, but the lactate was mostly similar. That workout was done over lunch (where I normally train in the PM) and was done in the work gym which is warmer than the clubhouse, but when I tested my lactate after the first 20mins and after the last 20mins I was still in the same lactate range as I had been for the workouts where my HR was lower.

Also the fact that I know that I can change my HR easily just by letting my mind wonder makes me think the fact that HR is so variable isn’t that surprising, for example if I think about a race when im erging I can easily make my HR jump by 5-6 beats, thinking more calming thoughts then makes it drop, all without a change in watts or rate

[gregsmith01748]

So I did another 20' lactate test today to start building a database of lactate and HR.

7 Feb: 190W, 19spm, 138.3bpm (66.9% HRR), 1.7 mmol/l
8 Feb: 190W, 19spm, 134.8bpm (64.4%HRR), 1.8mmol/l

(HR is avg for the last 5 minutes of the 20' test)

Interesting seeing the lactate higher and HR lower. I think I will need a fair amount of data to figure out how much noise there is in the readings and what trends exist.

I tend to find a lot of "noise" with heart rate, for example last week I had three days where I did 3 x 20 mins and on each I had the same wattage but for one of the workouts my HR was an average 16bpm higher, but the lactate was mostly similar. That workout was done over lunch (where I normally train in the PM) and was done in the work gym which is warmer than the clubhouse, but when I tested my lactate after the first 20mins and after the last 20mins I was still in the same lactate range as I had been for the workouts where my HR was lower.

Also the fact that I know that I can change my HR easily just by letting my mind wonder makes me think the fact that HR is so variable isn’t that surprising, for example if I think about a race when im erging I can easily make my HR jump by 5-6 beats, thinking more calming thoughts then makes it drop, all without a change in watts or rate

I agree with that completely. It's one of the reasons, I am using the avgHR for the last 5 minutes. I've noticed measurable changes in HR associated with a range of things. Thinking about a race, or even the next hard session can cause a rise. Changing my breathing pattern can push it up or down. A good burp can drop my HR by 5 beats, as can other unspecified emissions.

[dr3do]

Made my day, Greg.

[valgozi]

I tend to find a lot of "noise" with heart rate, for example last week I had three days where I did 3 x 20 mins and on each I had the same wattage but for one of the workouts my HR was an average 16bpm higher, but the lactate was mostly similar.

I have wanted to see this written for a very long time. In every other forum post I have read it has been written where it sounds like an assumption that HR and lactate are not linked. To actually know individuals are measuring and noticing this is great.

I wonder if the average HR for a workout might be more linked to lactate than max for a work out.

Every Tuesday and Thursday I have been doing a 3 x 20min r18 in the morning and evening for the last 5 weeks now. Quite a jump on my usual volume. I can not compare the two sessions on HR as the evening one is sometimes around 1.5sec faster on the split if I hold same HR. I normally do 70%HRR cap in the morning and 80%HRR Cap in the evening. Over the weeks there is a constant improvement in HR or Split. Its about 0.3 per week at the moment on all sessions, but I am aerobically unfit.

Stelph and Greg I am not stalking you but in researching lactate on all the rowing forums I have come across you both quite. The information you come up with is great.

[dr3do]

I tend to find a lot of "noise" with heart rate, for example last week I had three days where I did 3 x 20 mins and on each I had the same wattage but for one of the workouts my HR was an average 16bpm higher, but the lactate was mostly similar. That workout was done over lunch (where I normally train in the PM) and was done in the work gym which is warmer than the clubhouse, but when I tested my lactate after the first 20mins and after the last 20mins I was still in the same lactate range as I had been for the workouts where my HR was lower.

Also the fact that I know that I can change my HR easily just by letting my mind wonder makes me think the fact that HR is so variable isn’t that surprising, for example if I think about a race when im erging I can easily make my HR jump by 5-6 beats, thinking more calming thoughts then makes it drop, all without a change in watts or rate

I double this fully. For me it's up to 15 beats, just by tinkering (thoughts, breathing or mental stuff).

In my opinion HR based training is - possibly said that very strict - obsolete™.

HR monitoring during exercise is good in a long term, as a kind of progress indicator (e.g. 3 month ago my HR at duration_time@watts has been 1-2-3, but now it's 4-5-6). Or… for certain extended UT3/UT2 sessions to see when HR shift begins. Certainly their are certain conditions like extreme climatic temperatures, where HR monitoring can be mandatory. Or… HRV (heart rate variation), which is a great and very helpful, but "young" tool.

[stelph]

I have wanted to see this written for a very long time. In every other forum post I have read it has been written where it sounds like an assumption that HR and lactate are not linked. To actually know individuals are measuring and noticing this is great.

I wonder if the average HR for a workout might be more linked to lactate than max for a work out.

Im certanily not seeing a link between HR and even perceived effort and lactate. The HR;s done last week for example, as mentioned the wattages were mostly similar across the workouts but the one at lunch in the work gym both had a higher HR and also I perceived it to be a really tough workout compared to the others, but as mentioned the lactates were quite similar

Every Tuesday and Thursday I have been doing a 3 x 20min r18 in the morning and evening for the last 5 weeks now. Quite a jump on my usual volume. I can not compare the two sessions on HR as the evening one is sometimes around 1.5sec faster on the split if I hold same HR. I normally do 70%HRR cap in the morning and 80%HRR Cap in the evening. Over the weeks there is a constant improvement in HR or Split. Its about 0.3 per week at the moment on all sessions, but I am aerobically unfit.

The interesting thing I am finding with HR and lactate is that its not a case that my average HR is constant with regards to my sub 2mmol wattage, actually what is happening is that as I test and adjust my wattage on lactate, my average HR has actually increased. So since I started "properly" training on lactate I started out at around 131 bpm on average across all 3 pieces, but now its closer to 150bpm but still below 2mmol, plus the way my "drifts" over time is similar now to had it did before. So again the problem with training with HR seems to be, in me at least, that it doesn't track lactates exactly, you just get better at being able to hold the higher HR for longer. When looking through the book "rowing faster" (volume 2 I think) there was a graph which showed this effect and showed over several years that a rowers watts at lactate increased over time and their avg HR also increased over that time. Ill see if I can find the graph and post it

Stelph and Greg I am not stalking you but in researching lactate on all the rowing forums I have come across you both quite. The information you come up with is great.

No problem, as I say this is only what I am finding/seeing myself, we are all different and so others may not see the same things/results that I do!

As a note of progress on the plan I did a 5k test last night and managed a P.B. of 16:55.2 (down from 16:57.2 set in 2013), the last test I did was in September and it was 17:08 and the best last year was 17:04 so I am cautiously pleased with the improvement, cautiously because I think 16:55 matches the 2k I did 3 weeks ago of 6:25.8, but since then I have improved my watts at lactate so I had thought/hoped I would be closer to 16:50. Perhaps other factors may have contributed to the result (I was seat racing on sunday over 4 x 1000m flat out pieces/no taper/test done on my own in an erg room full of people doing 60mins at 20spm), but in a couple more weeks we have another 2k test planned so that may show how successful the "mostly" polarised plan I am following is working for me

[valgozi]

but since then I have improved my watts at lactate so I had thought/hoped I would be closer to 16:50. Perhaps other factors may have contributed to the result (I was seat racing on sunday over 4 x 1000m flat out pieces/no taper/test done on my own in an erg room full of people doing 60mins at 20spm)

MChase is working with High School kids that will naturally improve more than more experienced high performance rowers. Its good to see results from You, Greg and Ben Redman from training with lactate. I also have someone at my rowing club who was an Oxford Lightweight last year and they trained with lactates, not so regularly tested though, but always at at the end of a 2k to make sure they had gone hard enough.

What sort of improvement in Watts at 2.0mmol of lactate have you noticed? If you put the meters in say 70-80k or more SS per week do you then notice an improvement the next week of almost a definite amount even if just 1 Watt or is it not quite that noticeable over just one week?

With my HR I have noticed the following 'improvements' well I hope they are improvements.............

Rowing - Tuesday AM HR improvements.JPG (111.09 KiB) Viewed 2397 times

.......and not just the heating coming on later or the ergo room getting colder with the weather being colder.

[valgozi]

I finally clicked the button and have a Lactate Pro 2 on order, hopefully with me soon. UK distributor and almost sole retailer would not price match.

I shall share my experience with it too.

Being quite a bit slower (7:11 2k) newish to rowing (3 years) oldish for someone new to the sport (35) no real endurance back ground, than others that train to lactate it will be interesting to see how I progress.

Bit worried looking at others heart rates that I may have not been going hard enough (to achieve lactate SS) on 70% HRR that I thought was SS, but then I have quite a high max for my age. However my evening 80%ish HRR SS although thinking these might be too hard may actually be about where I need to be.

It will be great to finally see where I am at.

[stelph]

What sort of improvement in Watts at 2.0mmol of lactate have you noticed? If you put the meters in say 70-80k or more SS per week do you then notice an improvement the next week of almost a definite amount even if just 1 Watt or is it not quite that noticeable over just one week?

Personally I am seeing a steady increase in lactate over time, enough that I am able to constantly up the wattage but not so much that I don't occasionally jump over 2mmol and so have to go down a couple of watts to make sure they're below 2mmol.

I think as mentioned before, the training I am currently doing is three 3x20min ergs with 1:30 rest a week on mon, wed, thur and then Tuesday/Thursday I go sculling and use my approx HR to measure work rate. Its not ideal, but it means I don't go mental erging every day and can keep working on technique. Weekends are squad training. I have started this data from the 12th Jan (so have a month) but I was doing "lactate" training as mentioned above from around the middle of december, but the 12th was when I switched to the Lactate Pro 2 which I trust more for the values it gives me. Most readings are taken at the end of the 1st 20 min session unless otherwise stated

Week 1 - Previously I had been training around 206 watts but with inconsistent readings with the old meter, this week was all about finding 2mmol hence why sometimes I tested more than once in one session

12/1 PM 206 watts 1 mmol
13/1 AM 213 watts 0.9 mmol (couldnt go sculling, erged instead)
14/1 PM1 223 watts 1.0mmol
14/1 PM2 233 watts 4.6mmol
14/1 PM3 227 watts 1.2mmol
15/1 Lunch 230 watts 1.3mmol (lunch workout at gym, had very little sleep this day so missed morning scull)
16/1 PM 232 watts 2.7mmol

Week 2 - started off with a 2k test, after last week finding the 2mmol limit a couple of times at around 230 stuck with that till I see it drop
19/1 - 2k test 6:25.8 - PB (watts at lactate approx 230, therefore ratio of watts to lactate to 2k watts (390.7) is around 1.69)
21/1 PM 230 watts 1.7mmol
23/1 PM 230 watts 1.5mmol

I went away skiing for 3 days here, but was pretty active for the three days I was there (gym/most of the day on the slopes working hard) so felt I kept the excercise up and didn't see a drop in fitness

Week 3
28/1 PM 231 watts 1.2mmol - lactate dropped so planned to up the wattage
30/1 PM1 236 watts 1.9
30/1 PM3 236 watts 2.9 - was curious to see what happens to lactate over time, found mine slowly increased over this session

Week 4
2/2 PM1 236 watts 0.9 mmol - time to increase wattage
2/2 PM3 237 watts 1.5mmol - Note it was cold in the room so the lactate meter gave a temp warning, but still gave a value
4/2 PM1 238 watts 1mmol
6/2 PM1 241 watts 1.6mmol (work gym over lunch, very hot and sweaty and high HR)
6/2 PM3 239 watts 1.4mmol (work gym over lunch, very hot and sweaty and high HR)

Week 5 (this week)
9/2 5k test - 16:55.2 - PB

So personally I think I am seeing the same general increase in watts at lactate that MChase has reported, in that he tests weekly and usually can see a change in lactate weekly. I tend to test and adjust more frequently as I am willing to use more strips that he is, but if I tested weekly id probably see similar increases he is seeing. Tho I dont expect the increases to continue to be as fast as they have been so far since im still getting comfortable getting the "baseline" readings and experience

I feel pretty confident looking over the data that I am moving my lactate curve to the right, as looking at the over 2mmol readings I was getting in the first week and what I am getting now (16th Jan, 2.7 lactate for 233 watts for example and now 1.4 lactate for 239 watts) I have made improvements, as mentioned the only thing so far that has given me pause is although I have P.B'ed in my 2k and 5k, my feeling is that 16:55.2 is a score I should get for a 6:25 2k, but since then I have increased my watts at lactate by around 10 watts I would've expected a relatively better 5k time. Still, I have a 2k in another 3 weeks and so that will probably give a better indication of progress, and if MChase's theory on the ration of watts to lactate:watts for 2k is correct with a 10 watt increase I should be on for another PB, if I don' then at least I know its not down to issues with my aerobic training and I can then look elsewhere for ways to make improvements.

[valgozi]

I think as mentioned before, the training I am currently doing is three 3x20min ergs with 1:30 rest a week on mon, wed, thur and then Tuesday/Thursday I go sculling and use my approx HR to measure work rate. Its not ideal, but it means I don't go mental erging every day and can keep working on technique. Weekends are squad training.

Thanks for sharing your training plan. Seems I might be close to your volume (hours not meters, you are much quicker) during the week but I think your weekends will be more than I do by quite a bit. Currently doing Tuesday AM 3x20r1 PM 3x20r1,Wed Circuits (body weight and sprints, these are hard on HR), Thurs AM 3x20r1 PM 3x20r1, Fri PM 3x20r1, Sat 1:30hr on Water, Sun 1:30hr on Water. I know the "Polarised" part isn't quite there at the moment with the hard side of things just trying to let my body get used to the volume first.

14/1 PM1 223 watts 1.0mmol
14/1 PM2 233 watts 4.6mmol
14/1 PM3 227 watts 1.2mmol

I wonder if PM2 reading is a dodge result or if it did jump by that much, I know MChase has said the tolerance to going over by just a watt or two is very tight. Amazing that reducing watts in third rep did actually bring it back down by so much.

Been wanting to share this to your weights post on Rowing illustrated but its been down all morning - Using Molecular Biology to Maximize Concurrent Training - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4213370/

[dr3do]

I finally clicked the button and have a Lactate Pro 2 on order, hopefully with me soon. UK distributor and almost sole retailer would not price match.

Congrats! For a non-commercial use a very good device. As the strips are packed each separately they'll last longer if you don't use too much of them in a certain period.

[stelph]

I wonder if PM2 reading is a dodge result or if it did jump by that much, I know MChase has said the tolerance to going over by just a watt or two is very tight. Amazing that reducing watts in third rep did actually bring it back down by so much.

Yeah the reading was right, at that stage I was surpised that I had just kept seeing 1.0mmol so wondered what would happen if I jumped the wattage, hence why its exacty 10 watts as I thought that would be enough to get a reaction, which it was Dropping the watts again equally dropped the lactate levels so I became more confident that I was at least getting good reading.

Been wanting to share this to your weights post on Rowing illustrated but its been down all morning - Using Molecular Biology to Maximize Concurrent Training - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4213370/

Interesting stuff, its good to see a recommendation from a molecular biology point of view of how best to organise your training to get the most benefit, tho doesnt make it easier to fit around work/life tho unfortunately

Yes I have been wanting to reply to that thread as some of the information posted was interesting, especially the general review of strength training for rowing done in collaboration with the NZ team which I find interesting partly because its quite a thorogh review but also because it has an actual study with actual data from national squad members and the weights they were lifting, and I was somewhat surprised that it wasn't more!

In the study there were 19 men who were apparently a mix of U23 and senior (age range 21-27), with 14 gold medals and 2 bronze medals from recent years, weight from 77kg-97kg and an average weight of 5:57 - 6:17 (so mostly U23 I suspect), but the data shows their 1RM power clean is "only" between 82.3-102.3 (avg 92.3) and the 6 rep max bench pull 72kg-90kg (avg 9.4kg). This is a lot lower than I would have expected for national rowers/people with that sort of erg score, particularly for cleans and bench pull which are seen as very rowing specific exercises, suggesting Rep Max from Cleans/Bench Pull are not a major factor in your 2k score, I wish it had more data on other exercises like squats/leg press (it has leg press on a Dyno, I suspect those numbers are pretty big but have no point of reference) to make it easier to see what exercises (if any) are the most relevant for rowing performance so you could focus on those excercises

[stelph]

I finally clicked the button and have a Lactate Pro 2 on order, hopefully with me soon. UK distributor and almost sole retailer would not price match.

Congrats! For a non-commercial use a very good device. As the strips a packed each separately they'll last longer if you don't use too much of them.

Agree, separate wrapping is quite cool as with self testing id be worried about sweating all over everything and if I were taking sticks from a pot potentially ruining a whole pots worth of sticks!

[gregsmith01748]

Agree, separate wrapping is quite cool as with self testing id be worried about sweating all over everything and if I were taking sticks from a pot potentially ruining a whole pots worth of sticks!

Oh, that would be good. I have a Lactate Plus and the sticks are in a little canister that looks like a 35mm film can. I carefully take out the sticks I need before the session and line them up like little soldiers before the battle. Even if I am planning a single test after 20 minutes, I will set out 2 strips. Just in case I blow the test and am tempted to go digging for another strip.

By the way, thanks for posting the diary of your readings. I'm glad to see that others get these weird day to day variations. I was starting to think that I had a bad meter or something. I think that doing a test in each 3x20 will be a better way to deal with the noisy data. Easier to see some trends with more results.

[stelph]

Agree, separate wrapping is quite cool as with self testing id be worried about sweating all over everything and if I were taking sticks from a pot potentially ruining a whole pots worth of sticks!

By the way, thanks for posting the diary of your readings. I'm glad to see that others get these weird day to day variations. I was starting to think that I had a bad meter or something. I think that doing a test in each 3x20 will be a better way to deal with the noisy data. Easier to see some trends with more results.

No problem, I'm happy to talk and share what I'm finding/thinking with regards to training, it interesting to get a number of different thoughts and ideas when trying to nail down the illusive "training that just works" idea, I think for me I'm certainly finding training that seems to be working, it'll just be interesting to see if it keeps working now I'm at my currently personal best (so where I normally plateau or even regress)

Had an interesting thought regarding lactate levels yesterday, basically did another 3 x 20mins with a slight increase in in wattage but this time I had a reading of 1.9, after which the next two sessions were brutally tough even at the same wattage and then the last one ended up at 4.6. Looking back the last time I did a 1.9 for the first session on the 30th I again saw the drift up of lactate so I'm wondering if the "magic lactate" level is actually closer to 1.5mmol, this is inline with the rowing faster book (it was actually volume 1) I mentioned earlier where Marty Aiken talks about how as you improve the HR you train at for zone 1/aerotic actually goes up. He says after trail and error he found 1.0-1.5 to be the best zone and also proposes a way to run the lactate step test to find out the HR to follow when on the water

[gregsmith01748]

... I think for me I'm certainly finding training that seems to be working, it'll just be interesting to see if it keeps working now I'm at my currently personal best (so where I normally plateau or even regress)

That thought is starting to flirt dangerously toward the concept of periodization. Is it possible to just continue improving, or does one need to back off, refresh and attack again. Maybe lactates could be used to detect when staleness sets in?

Had an interesting thought regarding lactate levels yesterday, basically did another 3 x 20mins with a slight increase in in wattage but this time I had a reading of 1.9, after which the next two sessions were brutally tough even at the same wattage and then the last one ended up at 4.6. Looking back the last time I did a 1.9 for the first session on the 30th I again saw the drift up of lactate so I'm wondering if the "magic lactate" level is actually closer to 1.5mmol, this is inline with the rowing faster book (it was actually volume 1) I mentioned earlier where Marty Aiken talks about how as you improve the HR you train at for zone 1/aerotic actually goes up. He says after trail and error he found 1.0-1.5 to be the best zone and also proposes a way to run the lactate step test to find out the HR to follow when on the water

I've seen something very similar, although I don't remember the exact lactate readings. What I remember was that sessions where my lactate test was 1.8 or lower, the next 3 20 pieces flew by with little HR drift or increase in RPE, but when the initial test was 2.0 or higher, my HR would continue to rise and it was a mighty tough slog.

The hardest part is actually believing that the case where it feels easier is actually more effective as a training stimulus! I still feel like it's cheating.

[dr3do]

One point on lactate that I think is interesting that most other sports (and seemingly international rowing teams) still follow the step test for measuring lactate rather than the 20min testing that Greg is doing, I wonder why that is?

If you want to compare a bunch of athletes or your own progress over time (in weeks/months), a traditional step test is ideal, as long the testing protocol (ie 4-6' steps, 15-30W increase) remains always same. For this purpose there's even no need to max out (just to reach a level significantly above 4mmol - like 5-6mmol - is enough).