Lactate based training

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gregsmith01748
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Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:43 am

This is a new thread to pick up discussion of use of lactate testing in training.

There is some evidence that doing the steady state portion of one's training at a lactate level of 1.5 to 2 mmol/l provides superior aerobic training benefit when compared to doing this training at higher (or lower) intensities.

This thread is intended to provide a place for discussion on the theory and practical implications of this method.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:59 am

To get started. Here is a link to a popular lactate tester

http://lactateplus.com/home.php

There is a fair amount of paraphernalia required to get it going.

Here is a good post describing the test protocol with links to more.

http://www.rowingillustrated.com/boards ... d=a#p91802

The basic idea is you pick a steady pace, row that for 20 minutes and do a lactate test, which means you stop, prick a finger, prep a strip, then use the meter to measure lactate level. If it is not in the 1.5 to 2.0 range, adjust your steady state pace a little and try again. I get the impression that the test should be done every couple of weeks. And the overall metric of progress is faster pace at a specific lactate level.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by millie » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:30 am

Sorry dropped off this discussion - been a hermit rowing in my garage on my RowPerfect for the past few weeks as explained in a couple of other posts and haven't been on the forum due to this and crazy time at work - very interested in this, as I've often wondered whether my steady state rows are easy / hard enough.

Greg do you do this on a regular basis? How immediate are the results i.e. do you have to wait a minute to read the result or is it instantaneous?
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:10 am

I never had a lactate test done. I've been reading about it and toying with the idea of getting a meter. I've always wondered about the right intensity for longer steady state rows. I went through a long period where I capped the heart rate at about 70% HRR, but I felt like I lost fitness. But I've heard that rowing harder than that for base aerobic capacity doesn't really lead to improved results. So I'm confused. I figure a lactate meter would let me determine and track my 2mmol level of effort and avoid the day to day variations I see in HR based training.

The test itself is a finger prick, drop of blood on test strip, strip into meter, read results. So I imagine it takes about a minute. It's deciding to spend money on the meter that takes a long time. :oops:
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:51 am

Article from runners world on lactate based training:

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-traini ... actate-out
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:19 pm

Well, I took the plunge. I bought a lactate meter.

On Saturday, I administered a 7x4' step test, as defined by the Australian Institute of Sport. Here's the link

http://www.rowingaustralia.com.au/docs/ ... rowing.pdf

The test starts tamely enough at a power of 150w. You row for 4 minutes and then take a minute rest during which you take a measure of your blood lactate level. Then you increment power by 25 watts and do it again. Repeat until power is up at 275W, then the fun begins. After that step, you take a minute rest and then do 4 minutes flat out. The "official" term they use is "to exhaustion".

The test is supposed to help you define your lactate threshold, but this one is mainly to set a baseline. The training plan I will be using is lots of steady state meters with a blood lactate level below 2.2mmol/l and 2 or 3 threshold workouts per week. I will repeat the full test in a couple of months to see if I have successfully moved the curve to the right.

Here is a description of the test and results.

I modified the protocol slightly because I was testing myself. It took me more like 1:30 to complete the multistep process for the lactate test in each break. I think as long as I use the same rests the next time I do the test, I should have consistent results.

The protocol was.

- throughly wipe both hands with clean damp towel.
- dry both hands
- wipe left fingertip with alcohol swab
- prick finger, wipe away inital drop of blood
- put strip in meter
- massage a nice round little drop of blood from the test site
- apply blood drop to strip
- wait 13 seconds
- record reading

It took a few steps to get this process down and sometimes it took me a couple of samples to get a successful test, the meter would indicate a sampling error. The 175W test was completely botched so I don't trust that data point. By the end I was pretty good at it, but my finger tip is a bit, well, perforated and sore.

Here is the plot:
Image

There a few things I don't quite understand.

- Generally, below the lactate inflection point, measurements should be below 2.0mmol/l, but mine kind of bounced around the 2.0 level. I'm not sure if that means that I just have a higher resting lactate level or if there is something wrong with testing.

- At the end of the test, you are supposed take a sample immediately and then again after 4 minutes. My first reading was 15.0, the second was 16.7. These readings seem pretty darn high compared to other tests t hat I have seen. Again, I wonder if it is testing errors or person to person differences driving the results.

But it was informative none the less. My lactate threshold seems to be about 237 watts (1:53 pace) which was a HR right about 160. My measured max was 183, which is a bit lower than I have seen briefly in other workouts (186), but probably about as high as it would get without additional cardiac drift at the end of a longer workout.

From the test, I think I will use a steady state pace of 185. I will do a lactate test after the first 20' of a steady state session. If it is higher than 2.2 I will adjust downward, if it is lower than 1.8 I will adjust upward. I am doing this since the resting lactate and lower wattage lactates were all a bit higher in the test than what I have seen elsewhere. I would welcome feedback on this decision since this is all new to me.

Here is the classic dan burpee view of the test.

Red = "pain"
Image
Image

A word on the splits shown below. Each 4 minute section is split into the first 3:30, and the 0:30. The test calls for the avg HR during the last 30 seconds of each step, so that was the easiest way to calculate it. The maximum heart rate was supposed to be the highest 5 second average in the last section. For me that happened to be anywhere in the last minute which was just about all at 183 BPM.

Output
Workout Summary - Oct 19, 2013
--_|_Total_|_-Total-_|_--Avg--_|_-Avg-_|_Avg-_|_-Max-_|_--Max--_|_-Avg
--_|_Dist-_|_-Time--_|_-Pace--_|_Watts_|_SPM-_|_-HR--_|_-%HRR--_|_-DPS
--_|_07277_|_28:00.0_|_01:55.4_|_227.6_|_23.0_|_185.0_|_ 99.3% _|_11.3
Workout Details
#-_|_SDist_|_-Split-_|_-SPace-_|_Watts_|_SPM-_|_MaxHR_|_Max%HRR_|_DPS-
01_|_00791_|_03:30.0_|_02:12.7_|_149.8_|_19.1_|_126.0_|_ 56.5% _|_11.8
02_|_00114_|_00:30.0_|_02:11.7_|_153.3_|_20.0_|_130.0_|_ 59.4% _|_11.4
03_|_00835_|_03:30.0_|_02:05.8_|_176.0_|_20.0_|_139.0_|_ 65.9% _|_11.9
04_|_00119_|_00:30.0_|_02:06.1_|_174.4_|_20.0_|_139.0_|_ 65.9% _|_11.9
05_|_00876_|_03:30.0_|_01:59.9_|_203.0_|_21.4_|_141.0_|_ 67.4% _|_11.7
06_|_00125_|_00:30.0_|_02:00.5_|_200.3_|_20.0_|_143.0_|_ 68.8% _|_12.5
07_|_00908_|_03:30.0_|_01:55.6_|_226.6_|_21.7_|_156.0_|_ 78.3% _|_12.0
08_|_00130_|_00:30.0_|_01:55.8_|_225.6_|_22.0_|_155.0_|_ 77.5% _|_11.8
09_|_00943_|_03:30.0_|_01:51.3_|_253.8_|_24.0_|_163.0_|_ 83.3% _|_11.2
10_|_00135_|_00:30.0_|_01:51.2_|_254.5_|_24.0_|_165.0_|_ 84.8% _|_11.2
11_|_00973_|_03:30.0_|_01:47.9_|_278.7_|_25.4_|_171.0_|_ 89.1% _|_10.9
12_|_00138_|_00:30.0_|_01:48.3_|_275.2_|_24.0_|_171.0_|_ 89.1% _|_11.5
13_|_01037_|_03:30.0_|_01:41.2_|_337.4_|_29.1_|_185.0_|_ 99.3% _|_10.2
14_|_00153_|_00:30.0_|_01:38.0_|_372.3_|_30.0_|_183.0_|_ 97.8% _|_10.2

I'll post an update on occasion if people are interested in this approach to training.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by kirbyt » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:22 pm

Greg said:
I'll post an update on occasion if people are interested in this approach to training.
Yes please.

This is very interesting...1:53 is pretty fast for threshold. What will your threshold zone workouts look like?
54 years old probably around 77kg.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by Stan » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:39 pm

I agree with Kirby. This is really interesting stuff. I even looked up the price of lactate meters - bit expensive at £170 from Amazon.
pb times
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:48 am

The training is basically 80% long, slow distance keeping lactate below 2.2. The other 20% is supposed to be as intense as you can stand. The bread and butter session for that is either a 4x8' or 4x2k with adequate rests. But I plan to do all the classic Pete plan interval sessions, probably 2 a week. Then in January, I will go to 3 core sessions a week adding in short sprints to sharpen for the crash-bs.

The thing I'm trying to work out is how much long slow stuff I have time for. The research seems to say that the more you do, the better you get if you keep the intensity in the right range.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:45 pm

Started in with my first steady state session today.

Today was baseline day. Time to do the first of the sessions that will be my bread and butter for the next four months. I liked breaking it up into 20' chunks and grabbing a quick drink between them.

The other thing to do today was to take a lactate measurement after the first 20 minutes to see if my power level is on target to hit a lactate of 1.8 to 2.2mmol/l, which I have read, is the right thing to do to push your watts at lactate curve to the right (who wouldn't want that!)

From the step test, my initial power target guess was 185W (2:03.7) and I started out there. I decided that I want to keep my stroke rate around an r20. The main reason for this is that I notice that my stroke on the erg below r20 is way different from what I want to do on the water. Basically I have a big pause at the finish, and that was a tough habit to break.

I found that 185W was just way too easy. My heart rate was still below UT2 after 10 minutes and I saw that my avg power was closer to 190 than 185W, so I decided around the 10 minute mark to target 190 (2:02.6) instead. I rowed out the session aiming at a 190W avg, and ended with 190.6 avg. Blood lactate level at the end was 1.9mmol/l. So, I guess that is about right.

Of course, Greg the over achiever employs the following logic. I rowed a bit harder than 190W to bring the avg up and the lactate level was still under 2.0. Also, all my lactate readings were bouncing around 2.0 for the 3 lowest steps on the step test. So, I decided to try the next 20 minute section at 195W (2:01.5).

The interval felt fine, not very stressful, my heart rate was well within the UT1 range, but I botched the lactate test. I ruined 2 strips and it took 2 stabbings to get a reading. It took almost 2 full minutes to get a reading after finishing, so I was suspicious of the 2.8mmol/l reading that I got. That's too high, but I rationalized that I had screwed up the test.

So, I did the 3rd 20' piece at 195W with the intent of checking again lactate again after. This time, I executed the reading better and got a reading of 3.5mmol/l.

No mistaking that. That is too high, so therefore 195 is too high. 190W will be my training power for the next 2 weeks.

The interesting thing is that now I have an idea of the heart rate that corresponds to a certain lactate level. turns out that my instinct to keep HR below 150 was about right.

I did the final 20' session at 190W and hit the showers.

Image

Tomorrow: 4x8' at 260W (1:50.4) with a faster last.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by kirbyt » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:55 pm

So just 5 watts over the magic 190 and your blood lactate level doubles. Sounds like you've found the threshold alright. But I guess that is the point of the training. Four months from now 200 or more? I imagine moving the threshold just 5% to the right would have to make a pretty big difference in your race.
54 years old probably around 77kg.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by Terra Firma » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:53 pm

Hi Greg. Now that Crash B's are over, what is your verdict on the benefits of the UT1 "steady state" sessions? Did zeroing in on your HR zones and lactate levels help you improve over the October thru February training period? Was it worth the perforated fingers?

I was advised to do most of my training in the UT2 and UT1 zones through the year to build my endurance (my weakness), but not to get too stressed about blood tests. Like you, I initially guessed low on my HR levels for UT2 (<130), UT1 (130 - 140), and AT (140 - 150). By trial and error, I discovered that I could pretty much go all day at <150 and that my power decayed pretty quickly above 160. Based upon this feedback, I eventually set UT2 at 145 - 150, UT1 at 150 - 160 and AT at 160 - 165. I feel like I made better gains training at these levels than at the lower ones. I have some lingering doubt that my unscientific approach may be suboptimal, so I would love to get your post mortem on the blood testing. Best regards. - Chris
- Chris
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:31 pm

Terra Firma wrote:Hi Greg. Now that Crash B's are over, what is your verdict on the benefits of the UT1 "steady state" sessions? Did zeroing in on your HR zones and lactate levels help you improve over the October thru February training period? Was it worth the perforated fingers?

I was advised to do most of my training in the UT2 and UT1 zones through the year to build my endurance (my weakness), but not to get too stressed about blood tests. Like you, I initially guessed low on my HR levels for UT2 (<130), UT1 (130 - 140), and AT (140 - 150). By trial and error, I discovered that I could pretty much go all day at <150 and that my power decayed pretty quickly above 160. Based upon this feedback, I eventually set UT2 at 145 - 150, UT1 at 150 - 160 and AT at 160 - 165. I feel like I made better gains training at these levels than at the lower ones. I have some lingering doubt that my unscientific approach may be suboptimal, so I would love to get your post mortem on the blood testing. Best regards. - Chris
I made more progress with this training plan than at any time since I started. I was fresher for the intense sessions and I've set PBs for most of the ranked distances. I suppose I would have achieved the same result if I had trained at constant power and used HR zones, but my HR is so variable at these low intensities that I was getting very frustrated. The lactate testing became my "vault of truth" . It may not have been perfect, but it certainly kept me in line.

It will be very difficult to use lactate testing once I start rowing on the water, so I will use HR zones then and stick to a plan where my endurance sessions stay below the 80% HRR level and I increase pace when I finish a session around 70% HRR. I intend to go back and use lactate based methods for next year's indoor season.

To summarize. I feel like it was worth the money and picking my finger once a week to make sure the intensity was in the right range.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by Terra Firma » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:16 am

Excellent recap. Thanks, Greg. I may have to get a little more scientific as you have. Nice going on the results, too.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:18 pm

gregsmith01748 wrote: There a few things I don't quite understand.

- Generally, below the lactate inflection point, measurements should be below 2.0mmol/l, but mine kind of bounced around the 2.0 level. I'm not sure if that means that I just have a higher resting lactate level or if there is something wrong with testing.

- At the end of the test, you are supposed take a sample immediately and then again after 4 minutes. My first reading was 15.0, the second was 16.7. These readings seem pretty darn high compared to other tests t hat I have seen. Again, I wonder if it is testing errors or person to person differences driving the results.
My training is lactate based too.

Compared to cylcling/running I have bad experiences to take blood from the finger. On a bike or while running it's no problem to take the blood from the finger – due to relaxed hands while runinng/biking there's no issue there. As I observed/tested, depending on the strongness of your/my grip, it seems that there's a kind of "blocked" (at least reduced) blood flow into the finger.

So, on a rower… Taking blood from finger creates really inconstistent/unpredictable jumps/peaks. I have/get predictable and constistent results taking blood from the earlobe (if I do it by myself, Itake a small makeup mirror for that).

May this information help/serve you or someone elese.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:43 pm

gregsmith01748 wrote:
Terra Firma wrote:It will be very difficult to use lactate testing once I start rowing on the water, so I will use HR zones then and stick to a plan where my endurance sessions stay below the 80% HRR level and I increase pace when I finish a session around 70% HRR. I intend to go back and use lactate based methods for next year's indoor season.
Maybe you wanna take a look to an upcoming new bloodless lactate threshold testing device: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/09/bloo ... shold.html

http://blog.bsxathletics.com/ (mind-bogglingly detailed posts)
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/musc ... ensor.html (very interesting, but for me not affordable)

I'm interested in this BSX device and think it should work for rowers too. So I sent them an email, asking if would/will work for rowing too, but did not get a response till now.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:50 pm

Hi Boris,

I have improved my repeatability on finger blood samples by strictly executing the same protocol everytime.

1. wipe hands on dry towel
2. wipe hands on clean wet towel
3. wipe hands on dry towel
4. alcohol wipe on finger tip
5. prick finger, squeeze a drop
6. wipe drop
7. squeeze second drop
8. sample with meter

I can now get all that done in about 15 seconds, and my readings are a lot more predictable.

With regard to the BSX lactate cuff, i don't think it is useful for the way I use lactate testing. The BSX cuff uses an optical method that is correlated with lactate level, but is very focus on finding where the "knee" of the lactate curve is. This is the level of effort where lactate begins to build quickly and is usually around 85% to 90% of HRR. It does not provide a numerical reading of lactate reading. Rather it let's you know when you have passed that "knee"

I am looking for a power level that keeps me at an intensity where lactate is metabolized as it is created, < 2.5mmol/l level. When I did a step test with lactates, I found my lactate threshold way up around 5.0mmol/l. I think I am stuck with pricking my finger.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:25 pm

gregsmith01748 wrote: I have improved my repeatability on finger blood samples by strictly executing the same protocol everytime.
Great!! =D>
1. wipe hands on dry towel
2. wipe hands on clean wet towel
3. wipe hands on dry towel
4. alcohol wipe on finger tip
5. prick finger, squeeze a drop
6. wipe drop
7. squeeze second drop
8. sample with meter
For #1-3 I'm usually using oneway papertowels. Will give it a try by using also a wet towel ad trying not to use such firm grip. With running and spinning I had no issues at all.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:47 pm

dr3do wrote: Will give it a try by using also a wet towel ad trying not to use such firm grip. With running and spinning I had no issues at all.
My grip, especially during easy steady state work is quite loose. Often my pinky and ring finger are basically off the handle. I always prick the ring finger of my left hand.
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:56 pm

gregsmith01748 wrote:
dr3do wrote:My grip, especially during easy steady state work is quite loose. Often my pinky and ring finger are basically off the handle. I always prick the ring finger of my left hand.
Yesterday I did measurements using the the pinky finger of my left hand. I was careful to keep the prinky finger (during 10 minutes before measurement) a little bit of the handle – must be looking a little bit "chic". :lol:

It worked very well. Results have been accurate & predictable.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:43 am

Today I did a long and easy step test to try to figure out the right intensity for my steady state training using a modified lactate step test. I've read that it takes around 10 minutes for your blood lactate level to stabilize. So, I devised the following protocol.

10' at 175W, 180, 185, 190, 195, 200, 205, 210
with a 1' break between segments to do a lactate test.

Pace summary:
Output
Workout Summary - Nov 28, 2014
--_|_Total_|_-Total-_|_--Avg--_|_-Avg-_|_Avg-_|_-Avg-_|_--Avg--_|_-Avg_|_-Avg
--_|_Dist-_|_-Time--_|_-Pace--_|_Watts_|_SPM-_|_-HR--_|_-%HRR--_|_-DPS_|_-SPI
--_|_20255_|_88:00.0_|_02:10.3_|_158.1_|_17.7_|_142.5_|_ 70.8% _|_13.0_|_08.9
Workout Details
#-_|_SDist_|_-Split-_|_-SPace-_|_Watts_|_SPM-_|_AvgHR_|_Avg%HRR_|_DPS-_|_-SPI

01_|_02382_|_10:00.0_|_02:05.9_|_175.3_|_17.8_|_126.6_|_ 59.4% _|_13.4_|_09.8
03_|_02407_|_10:00.0_|_02:04.6_|_180.8_|_18.2_|_134.3_|_ 64.9% _|_13.2_|_09.9
05_|_02430_|_10:00.0_|_02:03.5_|_185.9_|_18.7_|_138.7_|_ 68.1% _|_13.0_|_09.9
07_|_02452_|_10:00.0_|_02:02.3_|_191.2_|_19.0_|_143.2_|_ 71.4% _|_12.9_|_10.1
09_|_02476_|_10:00.0_|_02:01.2_|_196.7_|_18.9_|_144.5_|_ 72.3% _|_13.1_|_10.4
11_|_02476_|_09:54.0_|_02:00.0_|_202.8_|_19.6_|_147.7_|_ 74.6% _|_12.8_|_10.3
13_|_02523_|_10:00.0_|_01:58.9_|_208.2_|_20.0_|_149.2_|_ 75.7% _|_12.6_|_10.4
15_|_02792_|_10:58.8_|_01:58.0_|_213.2_|_19.5_|_153.2_|_ 78.6% _|_13.0_|_10.9

Image
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Here is the lactate versus power plot

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So, I've been bullshitting myself. I can certainly row with an intensity below 2.0 mmol/l, I just haven't been. It also shows how my lactates can flop around a bit when I am down below the aerobic threshold.

A couple of side notes.
1. I did the test in the afternoon. I've noticed I do a lot better in the afternoon than first thing in the morning
2. I had a rest day (of sorts) yesterday
3. The temperature in my erg room was nice and chilly, probably around 15C.

All of these would combine to make the power at which I start to accumulate lactate a bit higher than otherwise. So, the results of the test today would indicate that I could train at 202W. I suspect I would be a good 10W down from that under less ideal conditions.

Tomorrow: No avoiding it any further. It's time for a 4x1000.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
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Training blog: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/

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dr3do
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:09 am

Hi Greg

Extensive informations you posted, I liked it very much. =P~

If you are interested (please really feel free to be or not), I'd like to give some feedback about that what I know. I tried to write as good as I can and had to use many times the dictionary. So I hope I found good words – if not… please feel free to suggest me better words/sentences. :fsbgrin:

Today I did a long and easy step test to try to figure out the right intensity for my steady state training using a modified lactate step test.
I guess you mean "UT2" (pure aerobic energy supply; "no carbs"; long distance), right?
I guess you haven't been searching for "steady state" or MLSS (maximum lactate stady state), right?

I've read that it takes around 10 minutes for your blood lactate level to stabilize.
According to informations I have from performance diagnostics/labs, it even takes 12min to get good/real data. Step tests usually available on the market are all too short (3min, 4min, some do 6min or 8min).
Image[/url]
For highly trained athletes it's normal that the lactate level ramps up and then drops with some "level of work". According to this graphic – still suspecting you search for UT2 – I would say that your UT2 level is where lactate dropped again, but before it ramped up (for rowing tendentially around 1.5mmol). Long story, short: 195W

I would double check it by a second session, starting right away with 195W… After 80-90min you shouldn't run into the wall of low energy, be still full of power and be able to speed up significantly (like 1x1.5k or 1x2k). If this is not the case… 195W is too high (for pure UT2), so you have used to much (additional) "carbs" and the tanks have been emptied too much.

My experience is… it's rowing on a very small edge. Mentally it can be veeery hard not to speed up (body suffers during "slow fat energy delivery" and cries for speeding to deliver additional fast carb energy supply). 5W can make a huge difference, you will see it in one of the follwing graphics.

The problem with lactate: A former Swiss Triathlete did some "field tests during his active time" and shared a lot informations with the community/internet. He did a lot of performance lab and corresponding field test, lactate based, but also spiro ergometry based. He discovered that lactate based measuring can be quite sluggish (yes, it's faster then heart rate and way more predictable, but in certain cases it's not fine enough), as you can see in the following graphic.

Image

As you can clearly see, the heart rate is not useful at all. Lactate stays down relatively constant, but Spiro shows up huge difference in energy supply.


If you wanna search for "steady state" (as know as marathon tempo; carbs are the main energy supply), I would rather search for MLSS. For that I would do a modified test, which takes 30min per level. According to this graphic

Image

you start with your predicted "MLSS-speed" (would say your FM time). After 12min you take 1st measurement, then stay at this speed for 30min. Now take 2nd measurement. If lactate hasn't raised about ≤1mmol, ramp up your speed by 5-10 Watt. Do it again for 30min. Check again. The "break even point" is where lactate raises by more then 1mmol during this 30min. Depending on your startpoint and fitness it maybe makes sense to do this test within several steps/sessions; it's (well) possible to combine it with training sessions. This way you will find the level where lactate stays on a constant level without peaking up. The lactate level can be nearly anywhere in the range of of 3-6mmol – it only depends on your physique, uniqueness and training level.


Sidenotes
  • The 2mmol/4mmol are just "notional numbers" (taken from statistical observations) like the hart rate tables with zones in a gym – you can can be in this range, but you have not. Wouldn't care about these two numbers, they won't help you.
  • Once you have done both tests, you don't need to do them again, at least not with this amount of levels/training time. It will be enough to check every some weeks (2-3). If you train good/right you'll make some sort of progression. It's easy to embedd the level checks into regualr training session – that saves also some of the non-cheap lactate sticks.


Cheers,


Edit: Changed "image hosting"
Last edited by dr3do on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:49 am

Boris,

That is some really interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing it. I'll have to read up on the concept of MLSS.

My full marathon pace was around a 1:59, which at that time was only about 15W higher than intensity I was using for my steady state training sessions.

I like the idea of doing some of those 30 minute sessions at different powers and measuring lactates at the end of them. It could be another way to track things down. The other thought I have is to do a long row, like 90 minutes at the same power (195W) and measure lactates every 15 minutes to see what happens as I get more fatigued.

It's remarkable what I will do to keep me interested in doing these long steady state rows.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
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Re: Lactate based training

Post by dr3do » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:13 pm

Greg,
gregsmith01748 wrote:That is some really interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing it.
Thanks! ^O^
My full marathon pace was around a 1:59, which at that time was only about 15W higher than intensity I was using for my steady state training sessions.
If you mean by "steady state" UT2, then… either the marathon pace was not high enough, or the UT2 pace was too high – or both. :mrgreen: No, really… most common error – which I did too :oops: - is to overpace the longish* UT2 training sessions.
I like the idea of doing some of those 30 minute sessions at different powers and measuring lactates at the end of them. It could be another way to track things down. The other thought I have is to do a long row, like 90 minutes at the same power (195W) and measure lactates every 15 minutes to see what happens as I get more fatigued.
Give you some warmup time, depending on your metabolism it takes 20-40min to be fully warmed up! If you start right away with 195W (which would be in my opinion a quite impressive number for UT2 with 80% fat) you will probably see a rising lactate level for the first 20-40min, then it will drop to (hopefully) ±1.5mmol – and stay there for the rest of this session. Your HR will shift by ±10 BPM per hour, but his is not linear.
gregsmith01748 wrote:It's remarkable what I will do to keep me interested in doing these long steady state rows.
I do a lot of the longish UT2 sessions… you could do the longish stuff with me, but I think we have too different time zones. #-o



*Due to the fact that UT2 is naturally very limited in it's power/speed/intensity, the only way to rise up the training level is to do more and more extended sessions. Depending on you fitness level, up to [email protected] is more kind of active recovery.

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Re: Lactate based training

Post by gregsmith01748 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:50 pm

dr3do wrote: If you mean by "steady state" UT2, then… either the marathon pace was not high enough, or the UT2 pace was too high – or both. :mrgreen: No, really… most common error – which I did too :oops: - is to overpace the longish* UT2 training sessions.

....
*Due to the fact that UT2 is naturally very limited in it's power/speed/intensity, the only way to rise up the training level is to do more and more extended sessions. Depending on you fitness level, up to [email protected] is more kind of active recovery.
I have never really tried to do too much UT2 rowing. Since UT2 is a HR band definition, and HR tends to rise throughout a session, it is hard to stay that low. What I have found is my 2.0mmol pace is related to my HR, when measured at a specific time. So, if I am at my 2.0 mmol/l pace (around 190W right now) and I am reasonably well rested, my HR will be right about the UT2/UT1 boundary after 20 minutes (70% HRR, around 144 for me).

Most of my steady state is 1/3 UT2 and 2/3 UT1.
Greg - Age: 53 H: 182cm W: 88Kg (should be 83Kg)
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