Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

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catchowder2
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Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by catchowder2 »

First, I'm not actually training for anything. I'm just getting a feel for how rowing long distance differs from that of running. Completing a marathon seems to be a common goal but the technique is different.

While running I'd usually have one day a week dedicated to one long continuous run to increase your endurance; I don't think anyone really scheduled breaks. I've noticed that marathon training for rowing has long rows, but that there are breaks. Are these breaks the equivalent of a race's aid station? Some people need to stop every 4 miles, others can handle an entire Half Marathon.

One of the jokes ultra runners have is "never sit in the chair." Ultras typically have aid stations stocked with food and body glide and the dreaded chair. You never sit in the chair because you won't want to get up to continue on your journey. Rowing is already sitting, so do you guys joke not to get up? :shock: I'm imagining a very tired athlete cumbersomely pulling and pushing with everything they've got, and barely accomplishing 10spm. That's the equivalent I'm using for someone who walks through my aid station battered and bruised but still trucking along. The mental implication of getting up and walking away has got to be the same as us runners sitting down right?
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by billwright »

I think that everyone has a different approach to the marathon. I don't train specifically for the distance as the recovery from a single marathon can be up to six weeks(according to some coaches). Long distance training for me anyway could therefore have a longer lasting effect as I am better at the shorter stuff. I use the shorter distances up to 15k as prep work.

For the marathon itself, I normally row for an hour, get up and walk around for a maximum 2 minutes, get back on and repeat until I'm over the "line. I have a thick foam rubber cushion to ease the PITA and take regular drinks throughout punctuated with handfuls of jelly babies for instant sugar. At the end, walking can be difficult but after a couple of hours it's back to normal.

During the course of the Marathon, I try to keep my SR at around 24/25 SPM and once I'm in the groove it tends to become automatic. In the couple of mass marathon erg races that I've watched, I don't think I've ever seen anyone barely accomplishing 10SPM. Most finish in good form at their average pace and some even manage a sprint in the last few minutes.

Marathon PB 2:58.43.6 in 2010

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catchowder2
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by catchowder2 »

billwright wrote:I think that everyone has a different approach to the marathon. I don't train specifically for the distance as the recovery from a single marathon can be up to six weeks(according to some coaches). Long distance training for me anyway could therefore have a longer lasting effect as I am better at the shorter stuff. I use the shorter distances up to 15k as prep work.


There are lots of runners who train like that as well. They do really intense short distances knowing that they can sustain something 'easier' on raceday for a long period.
billwright wrote:For the marathon itself, I normally row for an hour, get up and walk around for a maximum 2 minutes, get back on and repeat until I'm over the "line. <SNIP> I don't think I've ever seen anyone barely accomplishing 10SPM. Most finish in good form at their average pace and some even manage a sprint in the last few minutes.


Major struggles, physical and mental, normally occur during the 50K and 50M. Marathon runners that I've come across generally finish in the same way you describe. But I thought saw that some people row past the marathon distance. Ultra runs tend to be life-changing; I wondered if the same experience occurs when rowing as opposed to running.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by Stan »

I have done 7 or 8 marathons now and all have been pretty painful at the end. The buttocks usually feel like some kind person has lit a blow torch on them!
Training for last 4 has been using the Fletcher training plan (see Stans marathon training), which is mainly about getting the best performance you can so its a tough plan that improves your endurance and you spend a lot of time at faster than marathon pace so it actually feels more comfortable on the day.
I usually find I can get through the first 2 hours with relatively little discomfort. After that I usually have a short stop to stretch and increase the padding on the seat. This seems to change the angle your legs are moving at and leads to a relief in the pain.
I normally take a drink by rowing 1 handed every 5000m which helps to break the distance down into manageable chunks.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by kirbyt »

I've only completed one marathon on the erg. I ended up with a relatively fast time of 2:43 but it was quite literally a pain in the butt(and the hands and the legs). The last half hour was particularly unpleasant. I took another run at it a few years later but the memory of that pain stayed with me and I eventually abandoned the training. Now due to injury troubles my training volume is greatly reduced but I've stepped back and taken the long view that moderate exercise will give me a long, healthy and active life. A recent study conducted by the Mayo Clinic concluded that more than an hour a day of intense exercise long term leads to scarring of the heart. :shock: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/201 ... heart.html. I mean if it makes you happy do it anyway but there may be a reason it's so uncomfortable.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by Mike Channin »

Have only just seen this thread, and will try to find time to come back and post a proper response later. My experiences are limited to the up to 50k bracket, but I have a fair bit in that area. For the true ultra-distance stuff, hopefully Plummy or Paul G (if he's around) are people who've been there and done it.

Briefly, just completing a marathon on the rower (at any pace) is not that hard, provided you give it the respect it deserves (and which you'll be no stranger to, as a distance runner). Completing a maximal FM is a much harder proposition, and requires good preparation and accurate pacing.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by Mike Channin »

Differences between a running marathon and rowing one (in my humble opinion):

To row a marathon in a certain time takes a constant amount of work, almost*1 completely independent of the weight of the athlete, whereas in running, where the weight is carried, it makes a huge difference to the amount of work required. This is why big Hwt rowers are still faster at rowing a FM, whereas you would not expect to see a 100kg plus runner at the front of the London Marathon. The upshot of this is that efficient power delivery is the key to a rowing FM, rather than the balance of power to weight efficiency that a runner has.

The second difference is that rowing a FM is much lower impact that running one, and so leads to much less risk of attritional injury or damage to the joints, especially for larger athletes (whose joints take more of a pounding when running). You will still suffer attritional damage when rowing, but it is more discomfort and blisters on the obvious pressure points (hands, backside) than the joint impacts you get from running (and is a bit more inline with the various chafing and friction issues that runners suffer from at distances - jogger's nipple anyone?)

The similarity is that both exercises require a significant energy reserve and an underlying efficiency. You can't row or run a FM on just muscle glycogen, so your fat utilisation becomes important. Cross this line by too much, and you will 'hit the wall' and run out of glycogen reserves, and only finish at a massively reduced pace. So pacing is the key to both, and keeping those glycogen reserves intact for as long as possible, and also ensuring that you can be as efficient as possible in using energy from the much larger fat reserves. Like running, if you attempt a rowing FM without the necessary conditioning, you are likely to hit the wall (as I did on my first FM back after the long break - I didn't have the efficiency or the depth of glycogen reserves to complete at even quite a moderate pace).

One consequence of rowing efficiently is that you don't want to row at the extremes of your stroke, but keep all the work on the most powerful part in the middle. For this reason it seems to shorten the stroke and round it up a bit, compared to short sprinting. I find it affects my shorter distance form a bit, and I have to concentrate on sitting up more and strong catch and finish for shorter stuff.

Nutrition and fluid is an interesting one. Whereas a HM is usually done without any breaks, a FM will almost always have one or more scheduled (and to adjust the friction points/padding as well as to take on fluid and maybe calories). There is a very heavy cost on the split in even a short break, so if aiming for a time, you have to keep stops to a minimum and make them as short as possible. It is possible to row a full FM without stopping - I did my first and last but one this way, but it is a fine balance.

For an 80-85kg rower, from experience, you can expect to drop about 5kg in bodyweight through fluid loss (sweat and respiration) and a small amount in fat/glcogen use. Obviously this is quite a hit to take without refueling, hence the need to usually plan stops.

If you are just wanting to do the distance, with no time aims, then plan to make regular stops for comfort/blisters and fluid - this will make sure you get through with minimal chance of failure owing to pure discomfort or crashing fluid or glycogen reserves.

Others are better experienced to discuss how this applies to the longer (ultra) distances, but I believe that the efficiency becomes even more important, and the comfort and nutrition stopping becomes crucial. I'm not quite sure how you fuel/re-fuel for ultra, given that a FM for me is 2600 to 2800 cals - I'm guessing that it is all about being almost entirely fat-burning.

HR analysis gives clear indicators of where you are in terms of energy source utilisation, and you can pretty much see a crash coming (see my HR trace from Dec 1st 2011; the pace was constant for the first two hours, and you can see the HR response change significantly as the reserves burn out and I then have to switch to a much slower pace to complete.) A key part of training for me is to know what level of HR to expect for the planned pace, and be able to extrapolate this out to see if it is feasible to hold it or not.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by catchowder2 »

Thanks for the lengthy reply. Sounds just like considerations I made during running. Sweet!
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by Mike Channin »

Summary:

Much the same as running, except no real value from training towards being lighter.
Easier on the joints, but expect attritional damage to the hands and backside. (There are whole threads about how to pad the seat).

Same issues mentally and nutritionally.

There's a marathon challenge in May, if you're feeling up to it. Let us know.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by catchowder2 »

I don't think I'll be ready by May but will definitely be lurking those threads so I can learn. Have to see how the injury is doing; progress is kinda dictated by it.

I have a pretty good idea of how often I need to fuel so I guess I can just set-up aid stations in my mind at certain points. When I did long runs on the treadmill I'd keep my food and drink on the console so the erg shouldnt be much different. And neither should the weird looks. :?
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by Mike Channin »

Pretty much like the running version, you need to do around 2/3rds distance at least once in preparation.
If you can do an hour without reaction, try a HM
If you can do a HM without a reaction, consider a 2 hour piece.
If you get through this without anything too serious, you can try for the FM, and you'll already know where the blisters and friction points will be, and roughly when the drinks stops need to be.
(These times/scalings are based on a target 3hr FM, which may be quicker than you're planning, so adjust accordingly.)

Oh, and for drinks stops, I'd personally recommend fairly weak isotonic fluid - nothing too strong/sugary or requiring anything other than a quick down and carry on. (But I suspect you know all about what suits you from the running - again this will carry across).

The May challenge is for the FM and the HM, BTW, so maybe target the shorter one first! Whatever you decide, we're here to help. All the best.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by zootMutant »

kirbyt wrote:A recent study conducted by the Mayo Clinic concluded that more than an hour a day of intense exercise long term leads to scarring of the heart. :shock: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/201 ... heart.html. I mean if it makes you happy do it anyway but there may be a reason it's so uncomfortable.
Very interesting article, Kirby. The operative word seems to be "intense". After reading the article, my take on it is that there is no danger of scarring of the heart if the exercise is low-intensity (say UT2?), and that routine, high-intensity exercise should be restricted to shorter duration workouts.

Using Eddie Fletcher's terminology - don't train repeatedly in the TE5 range! I rowed my third half-marathon in 1:30:21. Steve Wiser pointed out that my heart-rate was quite high. I purchased the FBA software and analyzed my row and discovered that I was in the TE5 range for over 40 minutes! With longer rows it is very easy for me to hit a TE5 (and over-stress my heart), but almost impossible for me to hit a TE5 on a 10k.

I know I'm babbling; I just think it is very interesting when advice/research from completely different directions (Mayo/Eddie Fletcher) seem to agree. 8)

===========================

Mike - thanks for the detailed analysis of the similarities/differences between running and rowing! 8)
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by kirbyt »

I guess I may have come across as a bit of a Debbie Downer. :oops: But as the thread title suggests, ultras are crazy...the famed ultra marathoner nicknamed "Cavallo Blanco" (featured in the book Born to Run) died recently at 58 years old during a trail run, he was found to have had arrythmia, scarring of the heart and an enlarged heart. His training was definitely at the far end of the scale though: running with the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico is certainly intense in the extreme.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by zootMutant »

Oh I didn't take it that way at all. I interpreted your comments more as a cautionary note - along the lines of "if you're going to exercise hard, understand there could be negative as well as positive consequences, and make sure you understand what you're getting in to."

As I said, I appreciate the link. Thanks! :P
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by Richard Lindner »

Just rowed my first marathon. I didn’t do any specific training other than a couple of HMs and a few long rows but turned to the Eddie Fletcher Marathon Plan for guidance on pacing. My rowing HRmax is around 158bpm, which is much lower than the traditional 220-age value of 167, and using a conservative 2000m pace of 1:52.5 gave a power of 249 watts. So 60% of max power gave me a target pace of 2:12/500m and an average HR of 133bpm would equal 85% of HRmax. I did a HM a few days before at target pace and the numbers seemed to fit perfectly so I set a target finish time of between 3:05:00 and 3:10:00.

The first half went exactly to plan sticking nicely to ~2:12 pace and I was thinking 3:07:00 was in reach. As expected I was suffering from PITA at half distance so stopped as planned to shake out the legs and take on some banana and more fluids. Back into my stride I felt great so foolishly picked up the pace slightly to ~2:11 but after two hours the energy levels dropped, HR was up to the top of UT1 at 143bpm, and I ‘bonked’ into the wall. ](*,)
Stopped briefly one more time, as planned, but it was all downhill from there with the last 30 minutes being very tough. Probably didn’t take on enough fluids in the second half as breaking the rhythm to drink while rowing one handed was making the PITA worse.

No way was I going to HD after such a long time though, although I came close, and I managed to sustain just enough pace to finish just inside 3:10:00.

42,195m ... 2:14.9 ... 25spm ... 3:09:45.8

Next time don’t get cocky – stick to the plan. “Next time” what am I saying :shock:
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by plummy »

Superb work Richard on your first FM. Getting them "right" is a bit of a black art and even with the best preparation they can bite you on the proverbial.
As you say, getting to 2.5+ hours done you are likely to stick with it to the bitter end, no matter what - and well done for seeing it through
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by gregsmith01748 »

Great work, Richard!

Congratulations on your first marathon. The last 30 minutes are a bastard aren't they!
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by stumpy »

Well done Richard on getting through it, =D> =D> =D> no easy task is the FM but you did it so top marks.
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Re: Marathons, ultras and other crazy talk

Post by Davedcm »

Just started a Fletcher Marathon training Plan today. In spite of having done a HM and a 30K last week, this training session was quite demanding. I suppose it might be the fact that you have to change pace quite a few times in 60 minutes. Perhaps I shouldn't have done a Pete Plan 8 X 500m also last week.
I have definitely made up my mind to stick to this marathon plan as I have wanted to complete a reasonable marathon since I started rowing.

72 years 80kg 6' Rowing on an old machine that sounds like a bag of nails.
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What Marathon pace should I choose?

Post by Davedcm »

Hi, I have just completed my second day of the Fletcher Marathon training plan. I found today that I was rowing about 2 to 3 seconds faster on the Fletcher reps than the planned pace (to achieve planned HR of 85-92.5% ) based on my 2000m time.
Should I upgrade my planned Marathon pace or will this lead to a possible non finish.
Advice from those that have "been there, done it" would be gratefully received.

Dave Manchip
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