New kid questions

rtmmtl · Post by **rtmmtl** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:59 pm

This a copy of a post I made on the C2 USA and UK forums:

I have been using my C2 D for about 12 days, I have zero rowing
experience of any kind. I am old and out of shape.

My stats: 9200 lifetime meters, best 2K 15:36, best 500m 3:38 all at 21 SPM. I have monitored myself in a mirror and I feel that my form is reasonable for a novice. I have had no heavy fatique while rowing; which is what the plan generated for me by RowPro wants.

I would expect to have poor times as a beginner, but as you can see my times are more than twice what a "good" rower does. Are my times reasonable for my age, condition and experience, are these stats pretty much normal for a beginner, or is it likely that I am doing something very wrong?

(I had forgotten to mention that all the rows are on a setting of 3.)

This is a copy of the so far only response received:

You've pretty much nailed it Bob, something is going completely wrong.

Perhaps give an idea of where you reside, and there may well be someone in the forum with more experience and willing to give you a demonstration in person along with a few pointers on getting started.

The technique video included with the Erg is a good place to start, but unless there is something mechanically wrong with the Erg itself, I can't imagine why you would not be in the 2:30-2:40 range right out of the box. And quickly improving on that.

Any comment suggestions on the above would be appreciated. Is there anyway to test the fan settings? Something else I did not mention is that the drag factor is about 115 at a setting of three.

Thanks

Stan · Post by **Stan** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:54 pm

Hi Bob and welcome to the Free Spirits forum.
I think you may be being a bit hard on yourself. You are as you have admitted out of shape, but more to the point you have only just started, so things can only get better from here. I assume you have been given "the go ahead" from your doctor to exercise (if not please do).

I think most of the 70 to 79 year olds who have posted times on the c2 website will probably have been rowing for a number of years - not many will be novices.

I think you should continue to concentrate on your technique and slowly increase your distances before worrying about your times, which will I am sure come down anyway. If it makes you feel any better your times are better than some of the people a quarter of your age who use the rowing machines at the gym I attend.

Your stroke rate of 21 does seem a bit low to me - my comfortable rate is 28. Maybe you should try some short bursts where you up the rate a bit and see how it feels.
A drag factor of 115 on setting 3 suggests the machine is in good condition. 115 would be too low for me - I normally row on setting 6 with a drag factor of about 145 - you would probably improve your speed if you increased the drag factor a couple of settings, but again I would advise caution until your fitness improves.

I have no doubt some of our more experienced rowers will also be adding words of wisdom (over to you Mike), but in the meantime I wish you all the best with the rowing.

rtmmtl · Post by **rtmmtl** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:11 pm

Stan wrote:Hi Bob and welcome to the Free Spirits forum.
I think you may be being a bit hard on yourself. You are as you have admitted out of shape, but more to the point you have only just started, so things can only get better from here. I assume you have been given "the go ahead" from your doctor to exercise (if not please do).

I think most of the 70 to 79 year olds who have posted times on the c2 website will probably have been rowing for a number of years - not many will be novices.

I think you should continue to concentrate on your technique and slowly increase your distances before worrying about your times, which will I am sure come down anyway. If it makes you feel any better your times are better than some of the people a quarter of your age who use the rowing machines at the gym I attend.

Your stroke rate of 21 does seem a bit low to me - my comfortable rate is 28. Maybe you should try some short bursts where you up the rate a bit and see how it feels.
A drag factor of 115 on setting 3 suggests the machine is in good condition. 115 would be too low for me - I normally row on setting 6 with a drag factor of about 145 - you would probably improve your speed if you increased the drag factor a couple of settings, but again I would advise caution until your fitness improves.

I have no doubt some of our more experienced rowers will also be adding words of wisdom (over to you Mike), but in the meantime I wish you all the best with the rowing.

Hi stan,
Thanks for the reply. I just want to emphasize what a gentleman (his name escapes me at the moment) said in reply to what I posted:

"The technique video included with the Erg is a good place to start, but unless there is something mechanically wrong with the Erg itself, I can't imagine why you would not be in the 2:30-2:40 range right out of the box. And quickly improving on that." What are your thoughts on what he said about the 2:30-2:40 range?

In the meantime I discovered what possibly maybe the problem. The PM3 sensor cable - runs from the black housing on the back of the flywheel housing and ends up plugging into the PM3 (this is on a model D) was jammed between the right side of the black 'chain guide' and the bracket on the flywheel back cover and the nuts tightened so as to crush the cable.

Any one with the D I would be interested if the PM3 sensosr coil cable is just hanging free until it goes into the guides on the PM3 arm or is between the aforesaid.

I took it out but the cable has been definitely been pinched. If what I quoted above about the time range is correct then I do believe that is the problem.

Stan · Post by **Stan** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:38 pm

Hi Bob
Sorry I purposely avoided comments on the technical side of the model D as I have never used one.
As for the times - there is no reason why you will not be able to get down to those times and even lower given time.
Do you have access to another rowing machine anywhere (local gym?) - that would resolve the issue of whether the damaged cable is affecting your times.

rtmmtl · Post by **rtmmtl** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:15 pm

Hello Stan,

Back again.

Replies posts here and C2 USA and Uk are few and far between, maybe it's me with dull questions, I don't know.

I want to ask for your opinion of what a guy on C2 USA had to say about my problem: "...... but unless there is something mechanically wrong with the Erg itself, I can't imagine why you would not be in the 2:30-2:40 range right out of the box."

When you did your first 500m ever, what was your time, was it 100% or more higher than your best/present?

I am trying to get some idea of what other folk's starting times were. I do believe my form is reasonable, monitor in wall to wall mirror, my DPS is 5.7/6 meters I go at 19-22 SPM, set on 3, HR 50-60% following a training plan. I never feel really 'pooped', trying to get a reference to other rowers and getting nowhere.

Thanks.

Post by **Thomas W-P** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:17 pm

Bob

For your size and age, and without any rowing experience I think that 7m per stroke seems entirely reasonable, especially since you say you are going over at 50-60%. The 2,000m times you are comparing against will not be at 60% of course

.

Given this is all new, I don't think that you should be going for maximum effort at all and should wait until the plan you are on pushes you up towards the maximal effort. It is important to get the technique right before you pull hard.

My wife is 5' 5", 36 and although fit enough to push the kids up hill to school in the morning has not done any real physical exercise since she was 14. She finds it extremely hard to hold 2:30 for any length of time. If you are "out of shape" as you say, she may be in a similar shape to you. So I think that the "...... but unless there is something mechanically wrong with the Erg itself, I can't imagine why you would not be in the 2:30-2:40 range right out of the box." seems unrealistic and unfair to me.

I don't think that the cable is the problem, but if you can get on another machine and try that out you can lay that to rest right away.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Thomas

P.S. When I was 23 I returned to rowing after 2 years away. I did a 2000m test in the first week back and pulled 10:05! So your 13 minutes does not look that bad in that context

Mike Channin · Post by **Mike Channin** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:23 pm

Hi Bob, and welcome to Free Spirits.

As you can see, one of the best things about FS is that it doesn't matter if you're the next world champ, or just starting out - everyone is treated equally.

As for your questions - I get the feeling you're a bit frustrated by your current pace, but try not to get too worried. There's plenty of room to improve when you first start out.

Regarding your HR, go onto the tips and tricks forum and read through the advice about HR training on there. Put a post on the team HRs thread with your values for RHR and MHR and use Thomas's calculator under utils to work out your other training bands. Now I'm guessing your MHR is an estimate, based on one of the formulae, in which case bear in mind that it could be inaccurate and this will move all your bands around. Also, have a check with your doctor, just to make sure he's happy about you undertaking higher intensity exercise.

Rowing at only 55-60% WHRR (Working Heart Rate Range) is VERY light work, so don't be surprised if you don't go very quick. (And if you're using 55-60% of MHR it is even lower intensity).

Main thing is not to worry. Just work on your technique, and there are probably good gains to be made here. No-one starts off with good technique naturally, and you will be amazed how much faster you go by getting the leg drive right. There are various exercises to work on different parts of the stroke, but you can do those later.

To start with, I'd pick a plan of rowing a set time each day at light intensity (say the 60% HR and 21 SPM you're happy doing so far) and try to improve a few meters each time you do it. As you gain conditioning and technique you'll find you start to gain speed, and your HR will start to be lower for the same pace. Keep this up for a few weeks and see what happens.

Keep posting back and let us know how you get on.

johnglynn · Post by **johnglynn** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:48 pm

rtmmtl wrote:I want to ask for your opinion of what a guy on C2 USA had to say about my problem: "...... but unless there is something mechanically wrong with the Erg itself, I can't imagine why you would not be in the 2:30-2:40 range right out of the box."

Hello rtmmtl, welcome to the Free Spirits . I think been in the 2:30-2:40 range right out of the box is far too optimistic, especially for someone in there 70's.

I've got pretty close to the ideal rowing heigth 6'6" . And I was at 24 when I started rowing . I remember that my pace was 2:20 out of the box .
A lot of people in the gym I go to row a good bit slower then 2:40.

I think your stroke rate is probably too low especially for someone who is 5'8" . I would try to row at about 30 strokes per minute, and see how it feels for a 2K. Later on for longer distances you will probably go lower then 30.

I think the main thing is to give yourself some time to develop your rowing muscles and the times will fall .
Also try and improve your own personal best times for distances, i.e. compare yourself against your older times at the start.

Also try and keep your pace steady . The monitor should not read 4:00 pace then 4:30 pace a minute afterwards

rtmmtl · Post by **rtmmtl** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:07 pm

Thanks to all for help, suggestions and support, I appreciate it.

As for as the cable goes, I talked to C2 and they tell me that is the way it is routed.

Thanks again.

Post by **Thomas W-P** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:23 pm

Let us know how you get on. Every meter counts

Post by **Thomas W-P** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:42 am

I fear that Bob has left us - can't see him on the meter board any more. I hope he is getting on OK.

Stan · Post by **Stan** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:03 am

Looks like he is still with us Thomas - 175th place on the board.

Post by **Thomas W-P** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:20 am

Oh, well spotted, I forgot Bob = Robert.

I have been staring at this screen too long this morning (and last night).

Good! I am glad you are still here Bob. Because I was pondering your worries about your times.

I think if you compare rowing with running it makes more sense. You are comparing an out of shape you with a trained other person. Would you expect to go out and run at the same pace as a trained runner your age straight away? I don't think so.

When I went to uni as an untrained, but keen 18 year old, my first training run took 26 minutes and was purgatory. It was only 2 miles. A year later I would jog round in 18 minutes, flat out in about 11.