Training towards a 6:20 2k

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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Jill » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:50 am

Liefcat wrote:Thx, Jill and Jon
Liefcat wrote: And thx for the good luck wishes And I guess I was lucky - but not in the sense that I think any of us would have expected.
It certainly wasn't Erik but at least, thankfully, our wishes were still appropriate for the occasion.

On your Facebook page, your Danish friends included the following words in their messages. So, knowing that I will not have to embarrass myself by trying to pronounce them ... :wink:

God Bedring Erik. xx :)

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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:12 pm

Thx a lot, Jon, Jill and Rodger :!: :fssmile: :fssmile: :fssmile:

Yes, I´m home now, and relatively OK :!: :D My cat is OK, too, the neighbours gave food to it :!: :D

Luckily the CMRI is forwarded to tomorrow, so happy about that, but also a bit stressed - and next week I will be wearing a Holter monitor...

Yes, Jon, the Doc that did the Echo wasn´t used to see such a big heart, he said you´re a big person and also well-trained - so he struggled a bit to adjust to the measurements in my case... :wink:

Yes, Jill, I think you should be happy not to have to pronounce that sentence, but anyways: "Mange tak!" :!: :lol:
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Jon » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:43 pm

I hope the results you are getting back are reassuring Erik and you are feeling well. I would imagine you'll be allowed to stay active at least for the present time.

I've been out of action with a viral infection. I had been holding things at bay though from Monday through Wednesday I couldn't exercise at all due to long days and work commitments including an evening meeting on Wednesday. Thursday I really suffered for it. The new gadget I've got to measure heart rate variance showed a significant drop in HRV, serving as a warning when I woke up Thursday (though I felt rotten anyway)!

Although HRV not much different on Saturday, I decided it was time to get moving, feeling a bit brighter, I did 25mins at 1:58 average / 500m

Today I felt slightly better again, with a slight improvement in HRV, so did the ctc, aiming for around 1:47-1:48 pace. I quickened things slightly (ctc thread). Hopefully I can keep something running on this thread.
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by zootMutant » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:57 pm

Liefcat wrote:...I guess I was lucky - but not in the sense that I think any of us would have expected. I felt fine before warm-up - but then suddenly during warm up I felt very dizzy and fainted. I woke up a couple of minutes later, by then the surrounding people had already performed CPM and called an ambulance. It took me to the most modern heart department in Denmark, that is Skejby Hospital, which was only 3 miles away from the venue. A lot of tests didn´t give any conclusive answers, however, but we are relying upon an MR scan of my heart, which unfortunately will only take place in 1 week´s time...So until then I will have to keep a very low profile :!:
That was pretty shocking to read, Eric. I am very glad you were close to a good hospital!

Hope you are feeling better, but I can't decide if it would be better for the doctors to find something... or not. :-k It wold be worrying if they found something wrong, but perhaps more worrying if they couldn't find anything and you would always be wondering if you were going to have another fainting spell.

Please keep us posted on your progress!

Best wishes, :P

P.S. I'm glad your cat is okay, too! :P
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:06 am

Thx a lot, Zoot :!: :D

Yes, I can perfectly recognize the feelings whether I should fear something or hope for something :!: :fssmile: But I must admit I´m now hoping that they will find some explanation (I have noticed and they have registered some arrhytmias), so that there may be a treatment or at least some guidelines :!: Did the MR scan Thursday, and am doing Holter Monitoring next weeked... I´m "afraid" I won´t get any answers before the 31st... :wink:

Interesting with your new HRV measurements, Jon :!: And too bad with your current/recent infection, but (once again) interesting that the HRV seems to be picking it up :!: Get well soon :!: Good luck with the ctc :!: 8)

Think I´m over the first psychological phases - am beginning to look forward. But of course waiting for the "verdict" still... And at some point I will decide to find another thread - probably the "What training" that I "came from"...
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Jon » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:49 pm

It's really great to hear that you are well Erik and that something at least has shown up on your ECG to provide clues. With the guidance of your excellent health service, and with the passage of some time you'll formulate a plan as to what exercise you can do and how this can be for pleasure and health. I'm not sure I'm in shape for even considering a sub 6:20 presently, in fact, I'd be surprised if I could manage sub 6:45 :lol:

The heart rate variance has certainly been an interesting tool. There was a subtle uplift in variance and I decided to do a very gentle workout. The following day I felt somewhat improved and did the ctc (on Sunday), then yesterday / Monday I worked a long day but got an early night and plenty of rest. HRV had increased significantly this morning, so despite not feeling entirely energetic, I thought I'd do a moderately hard 10K

10K 38mins 1:54.0/500m

We'lll see what is going on tomorrow. If nothing else, the heart rate variance is halting me from overdoing it on days when I should be either taking it easy or resting.
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:34 pm

Yes, very interesting that you have found a tool to guide you how you should train, Jon :!: Well done on the ctc, no doubt you can go faster when you are fully recovered :!: =D> And certainly, the 10k shows you have the basic fitness and also your usual motivation and will to train :!:

Slightly improving - also physically, and - of course - still hoping that they can find some treatment for my "condition"... :D
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:34 pm

Easy erging today: 5k 21:35.9 2:09.5 20spm strapless. At least I´m sub 9 now... :fswink:
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Jon » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:37 pm

Wow, that's awesome to see you posting Erik! :fsgrin: :fssmile: That really is an achievement after what you've been through and a very sensible workout also. How did it feel? I find low intensity workouts are almost meditative (and really ought to do more for this reason alone). You must have some good reassurance from your doctors.

My back has been playing up quite a lot, reminiscent of last year around the time I bailed from rowing at Madchester. I'm under some considerable stress presently with it being very busy at work and I've a few deadlines. It really seems to affect my ability to train hard, though the training keeps me going better than anything. :? :lol:

It was going to be 12' with 3' rest, but after the first interval I was asked to see my Daughter who had fallen running for her school bus. She had taken a blow to her face, knee and hand. Fortunately a thick top lip only (no more broken teeth) and some grazing. She's a tough cookie.

January 19th
12' 3249m 1:50.8 26 (EHR 167) about 6mins rest

then 2*12' with 3' rest

12 3232 1:51.3 26 170
12 3212 1:52.0 27 177

I found it quite tough as demonstrated by the heart rate. I'm confident it's not too bad though, because my heart rate variance has been relatively buoyant, despite the long days and stress etc.

Today my back has been hurting even more. I was planning to go on the Watt bike, for some reason I've not grown so fond of it. It is in the garage and it's not quite as 10K, so the erg it was. I did a 2K warm up and my back felt decidedly stiff. The first 2-3k also I was pretty stiff, but thereafter things loosening up and the pain diminished somewhat. I did find the workout quite difficult though.

37:35.7 1:52.7 26 167 av EHR

7:28.0 2000 1:52.0 25 162
7:31.9 4000 1:52.9 25 163
7:33.5 6000 1:53.3 26 165
7:35.4 8000 1:53.8 27 169
7:26.9 10000 1:51.7 28 180

I'm resolved (I think) to putting in the donkey work to build some erging fitness up. My weight is still 215lb (down from 235) so I'm pleased performance is not worse than I think it would be at a higher weight. The vegan diet isn't killing me or rowing performance!
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:41 pm

Wow - you know how to play the life-got-in-the-way card, Jon... :shock: That sounds terrible - but very lucky that no teeth got broken from that hit :!: Hopefully there were only superficial bruises :!: And how determined of you to carry on with the remaining two reps :!: ^O^ ^O^ ^O^

Also quite easy to understand if your back isn´t at 100% after your unfortunate crach :!: Then it´s good to learn that it actually gets better with some "gentle" erging... Gr8 job getting through that 10k - and although you probably can remember a time when it didn´t feel as tough, it seems very clear that you are taking some important steps :!: =D> =D> Despite your job being very demanding at times :!: ^O^

Now I think I know what is happening to me and happened two weeks ago... I guess that might be the same "explanation" as the Docs must have found that made them "release me" from the hospital. What is missing is the final causative explanation that I hope they find and can tell me on the 31st...

Certainly wasn´t anything like my previous slow erg sessions, didn´t feel too meditative, keeping an eye on the monitor, the HR monitor and at the same time trying to detect my actual blood flow...
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Jon » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:51 am

Yes I'm sure the first session on an erg after what had happened was an enormous challenge psychologically if nothing else. It's a great achievement to have completed something successfully and a very sensible choice of pace. Probably the alternative doing nothing at all, would potentially be more risky. At least erging, the level of feedback over effort is very high.

This is certainly my worst time of year stress wise so I'm glad to have kept training going, there's nothing like a good workout to relieve stress!

22nd January I did 30mins at below rate 20, 1:53.5
It was meant to be easy (heart rate variance has been steadily falling), but I find the low rate stuff really quite hard.

23rd January (yesterday), another 10K. A long day at work and I've not been managing / motivated enough to workout afterwards, but I had a fairly good end to the working day and got before my Daughter's bedtime (erg in room next to hers).

37m34.2 10K 1:52.7 24. 158

7:33.2. 2000. 1:53.3. 22. 143
7:30.9. 4000. 1:52.7. 24. 154
7:29.9. 6000. 1:52.4. 25. 159
7:34.2. 8000 1:53.5. 26. 159
7:26.0 10000 1:51.5. 27. 179

I wasn't bothered at all about the result, and got through the meters without any problems at all. I was surprised the result was marginally faster than the tougher feeling session from a couple of days ago.

Heart rate variance this morning, significantly increased (recovered) so I've no idea why this should be so! Another confirmation I should be training a lot more! I'm more optimistic progress is being made again and hope times will fall accordingly in time.
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:24 am

It certainly looks like you are way beyond your infection, Jon - you are absolutely flying now :!: You say you are not feeling that great about low rate work - but you certainly know how to do it and on that 30 minutes you proved just that. And must feel wonderful to do the 10k not only faster but also feeling better than the recent "struggle" :!: =D> =D> You are definitely going in the right direction and HRV must also give in to that :!: And training after a stressful day at work can be a double egded sword - but you seem to have found the way to get around that, too :!: ^O^ ^O^

Yes, I think you are right, Jon, that a little light workout is better than not doing anything at all. I think that the lesson or good thing I can pull out of this is "training" for longer periods of time at a low intensity. Over the years I seem to have developed a tendency to do cold starts for one thing - and then do very intense workout for a short time. This way I thought I could still pull some "reasonable " performances out - but must say it backfired badly. Now after an hour of light training or "work" my heart seems to remember how to function. A bit controversial I must admit - but did another 5k Monday - totally impromptu - and after 7:48 at the 2k mark I just continued and landed at 19:47.9 :!: :D Thought I might never get sub 20 again... O:)
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Jon » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:29 pm

Thanks Erik, I am enjoying how the exercise is making me feel and there is a glimmer of optimism for further improvement.

Remarkable impromptu workout Erik given the circumstances! ^O^

Of course I know you are capable of at least this sort of result and more. You've obviously got the bearings greased and the Liefcat train is rolling again :fswink: !

The rest and break from training perhaps made it feel quite natural. It must feel reassuring to have completed that without hiccup. I must say, obviously not armed with the facts, but I had wondered whether an arrythmia might have been triggered by a viral infection and perhaps was associated with the stress of the occasion. You have had a remarkable consistency in producing enormous numbers of pretty full on sessions (lots of ctc attempts etc). Interesting of you to comment many have been without significant warm ups.

I didn't feel up to a workout last night when I got in around 7PM. This morning my heart rate variance had shot up, despite my having had a hard time waking up. Strangely however, it did indicate an 'amber' (ie exercise with caution). I had thought given the high variance reading (one of the highest yet), it would have been green :? Perhaps the other subjectively entered data, ie stress, sleep, diet is taken into account in their recommendation.

Feeling tired after getting up, I thought a slow paced workout was in order. Not feeling so easy at the time, I have been feeling much more mentally alert this morning than I think would have done without exercise.

39:17.6 10000 1:57.8 20 152

7:49.8 2000 1:57.4 20 147
7:51.5 4000 1:57.8 21 150
7:51.9 6000 1:57.9 21 153
7:53.5 8000 1:58.3 21 155
7:50.9 10000 1:57.7 21 158
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:39 pm

Although you seem somewhat "disappointed" with your 10k, Jon, it still looks very consistent and high quality :!: ^O^ ^O^ Positive thing is that your HR didn´t explode after a certain point, but only increased slightly in your case. Sometimes hard to judge which factors to help decide how and when to train, but my guess is that you were genuinely tired when you got home late. And maybe you are a bit like me and don´t perform and train too well too early on the day... Anyways, I think it´s important to sometimes train even if you don´t feel up for it - otherwise there´s the risk that it never feels all right and you never get to train... Always interesting trying to find guidelines - and I´m sure you are on the right path... 8)

Interesting suggestions, Jon, thx :!: I don´t think I had any major infection, was feeling pretty good for this time of year. Just didn´t feel like the training the last 2 or 3 days before the comp. And for the last couple of days almost didn´t. My "post" CRP was at 4.0 so no major indication there neither. I have been a bit anxious that an infection from teeth and gums might damage my heart valves, but all of them looked fine on Echo (apparently I was almost too big for the Doc to reach for my heart - so was asked to lie on my back where I could watch the screen perfectly :fswink: ). I think you are right about stress. I think the night shifts are actually harder on me than I would like to admit... Luckily one might say I´m stopping Feb 6, that is, if I even get back "in time"... I´m also very suspicious about taking Ibuprophen, I think I took one 400mg the night before... Definitely will never take that "stuff" again. Some studies seem to suggest a correlation, read for instance: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... hythm.html

Yes, strange thing - I feel I´m "perfectly" capable fo performing at the same level as "before" - but I´m a different person with more experience, so I will take the "easier" options. Anyways - after going on my bike to buy food and pellets, I took on another 5k - and yet another improvement: 18:55.9 and actually feeling better both during and afterwards... :D

(Already a big fan of Divergent and Insurgent - now happily watching Allegiant on tv :D :D )
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:38 pm

Not used to doing meditative erging - but today with a lovely view from my house in the sunny wheather and at the same time watching the live streaming from Danish IRC did a 10k: 39:16.8 1:57.8 26spm AHR=128 MHR=144. Hopefully I can learn something from you, Jon, so that I can repeat this experience in the future :!: :D
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Daffy » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:04 pm

Just read the recent posts.... I was shocked! :shock: Glad to see the fighting spirit is undaunted, but remember- please take care of yourselves guys!!!
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Jon » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:44 pm

So good to see you back on the scene Jane and posting in the CTC thread! Thanks for dropping in.

Great stuff Erik, keeping the momentum going with sensible training! I have been aware of the risks of NSAIDs re cardiovascular risks in general, though I hadn’t been so aware young ‘healthy’ people were at risk of arrhythmias though, very interesting. I tend to use ice packs more of the time for acute inflammatory musculoskeletal injuries and alternating heat / cold for more chronic injuries (as I’m sure you do). I’ve usually had dyspeptic symptoms pretty early on with NSAIDs.

I’m glad all of your heart valves were OK on the echo, that must be very reassuring. I can remember being in a talk about AF with a cardiologist a couple of years ago, and as I recall it, he thought athletes were more prone to AF due to only having ‘so many heat beats in a lifetime’. I can’t remember the context in which he presented this and what evidence there was to support the claim but it did get me thinking. Very interesting what you said earlier though about warm ups and maximal intensity workouts. Great 5k, sounds as though you accomplished that at a very low rpm / at tickover!

What pellets are you buying Erik? Are these for chicken’s??

Sounds idyllic the view you have been rowing with, sounding very meditative! I have vowed to meditate for wellbeing (aside from rowing), more this year.

I managed to workout Wednesday (my long work day), before work. In fact, it made it a lot easier to work efficiently all day, though after dinner I took an early night! I have had two days off exercise (Friday and Saturday). I felt very tired yesterday and my HRV dropped. This morning it had picked up considerably, though was suggesting only a moderate workout (with an amber signal). I chose to ignore this and do the ctc which was pretty maximal for my present fitness. I’m pleased though to have made progress the last couple of months. See ctc thread.

Jan 26th:
20mins 5208m 1:55.2 20 156avEHR
4 1041 1:55.2 20 149
8 1037 1:55.7 20 153
12 1046 1:54.7 21 158
16 1044 1:54.9 21 161
20 1041 1:55.2 21 160

I had programmed only 20mins as I'd been feeling quite tired and didn't want to over do things before work. I've done more meters in the last three weeks than any consecutive three weeks in the last twelve months, so I'm conscious I need not to get too carried away!
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:43 pm

Very nice to see you back here with us again, Jane - I only wish there would have been a more positive occasion :!: :? :D

How impressive that you keep on training, Jon, despite the long working hours :!: ^O^ And 20 minutes of training should be enough to keep your endurance up :!: =D> And very well executed ctc, nice improvement, knew you could do it :!: ^O^ ^O^ Fortunately for me you didn´t beat me this time around, but those days are surely gone - anyways, exciting with the 10x90"+30" - might look like a session that should appeal to both of us... :fssmile: :fssmile:

Hmmm, pellets are for heating... Interesting suggestions, Jon, about the AF, heard that same "number of heart beats" also, but I guess it was in another context. Btw, found what you and I wrote about my arrhytmias from January 2012: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2004&start=1925. I tried to explain what happened to the Doc that did my Echo this time, and he seemed to suggest ventricular asystole. But those "crazy" readings from my HR monitor then, like 185, got me thinking that I might have had AF also then. Anyways, I haven´t heard the "results" from the ECG then, but hopefully it still cached in some system.

On a less scientific level there has also been a number of professional footballers (footballers like in soccer players) who suddenly got some heart attack - and at least one of them died on the occasion. They suspected it came from use of Ibuprophen and Paracetamol.
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Daffy » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:08 pm

Liefcat wrote:Very nice to see you back here with us again, Jane - I only wish there would have been a more positive occasion :!: :? :D
Erik - nothing more positive than still being alive. Thank goodness! :D
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by zootMutant » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:09 pm

Erik -- hope you hear good news tomorrow! Best wishes -- zoot :P
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:27 pm

Thanks, Jane and Zoot, sure feels good to be alive :!: :fssmile: :fssmile:

Yesterday felt like a rather good day. Anyways, tried next month´s ctc, and went better than I had expected, 430m reps seemed sustainable and 440m reps seemed hard - ended up at 4361m, would most likely get me a place in Boat 2... :D

Hm, yes, I got the news today, had hoped for an explanation, and I got it, but maybe not quite what I would have been expecting. Cardiomyopathia, with scar tissues. No curative treatment, but started with small doses of ACE-inh. and Beta-Blocker - and these doses should be increased to some sort of steady-state, possibly life-long treatment, for me. Was adviced against competing at high level, at least until such steady-state has accured, and also the medication could make my range somewhat smaller. They couldn´t tell at the moment if it was due to a former infection (and the heart had made the scar tissue in the healing process) or due to heresy. But later I will do a DNA-test to find out if I´m genetically pre-disposed. I guess I haven´t digested the new information entirely just yet, so still a process to adapt to the new situation... :o
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by zootMutant » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:57 pm

Liefcat wrote:I guess I haven´t digested the new information entirely just yet, so still a process to adapt to the new situation... :o
Well, no. I guess not. That's definitely some life-changing information there. Very hard to process and adapt.
Liefcat wrote:No curative treatment...
... is disheartening, but
Liefcat wrote:...at least until such steady-state has accured...
... sounds hopeful.

I'm not sure what to make of it... except I am very glad you're alive!

Cheers, :fsbgrin:
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Daffy » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:27 pm

Being given a diagnosis can be a double edged sword - good to know, but as you say it can take a while to process and come to terms with the implications. At least with a diagnosis you can start to move forward, and information can be gathered and applied. It sounds like the doctors are on the case, and you are being well looked after. Remember, you are still very active, which is good news in itself. :fssmile:
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Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Liefcat » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:33 pm

Thx, Zoot & Jane, you are both right :!: :fssmile: :fssmile:

Yes, I need to find the positives in this, and you are certainly right, that knowing the "reason" and also some measures can be very helpful. And as you say, my base level is probably better than most people´s, so I still have some ressources :!: :D Yes, very double-edged, I just need to accept and understand how to deal with this new knowledge :!: :D And pills have already lowered my blood pressure, so that should be a good thing for my heart :!: :D
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Sheena
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2018
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2018
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:58 pm
I row on...: Model D with PM5

Re: Training towards a 6:20 2k

Post by Sheena » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:03 pm

Erik, we were very surprised to hear your news but it sounds like you are now making the plans to adapt and move on. Not always as easy as it sounds but keeping positive is a really good thing.

Take care, best wishes from Sheena and Jan, hope to see you at Madchester.

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