What is a good SPM rate?
Moderator: The forum police - (nee naw)
What is a good SPM rate?
Have been rowing for a few years, but really just jumped on a rower and started "yanking the chain" (so to speak). Don't know if any of my times will show up with this posting, but I am more comfortable with longer distances. My SPM is usually between 27-30, is that too high? Average? I have no idea..lol Since joining the Free Spirits I have rowed more consistantly for longer distances and now I want to try and turn that into lower times. Any help and advice would be appreciated.
By the way, I think this group is a great bunch, really enjoy the CTC's. But still have no idea what an ERG is..lol...or what time zone GMT is..
Wayne
By the way, I think this group is a great bunch, really enjoy the CTC's. But still have no idea what an ERG is..lol...or what time zone GMT is..
Wayne
- Thomas W-P
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Hey Wayne. Welcome to the madhouse.
I think most people have a natural stroke cadence - Mike says that I row too slow on my long rows when I go over at around 22.
But your rates sound fine. 27 for longer rows, 30+ for the sprints?
I would say check out your technique! too. If you have rowed on water you should be OK, but otherwise, check out the Concept 2 guidelines in their downloads section (look at the abridged guide). Although I rowed on water for six years I have been looking quite hard at my technique in recent weeks and this has changed my stroke rate (together with my improving fitness).
But this is just off the top of my head - I am sure others will have an opinion on this.
I think most people have a natural stroke cadence - Mike says that I row too slow on my long rows when I go over at around 22.
But your rates sound fine. 27 for longer rows, 30+ for the sprints?
I would say check out your technique! too. If you have rowed on water you should be OK, but otherwise, check out the Concept 2 guidelines in their downloads section (look at the abridged guide). Although I rowed on water for six years I have been looking quite hard at my technique in recent weeks and this has changed my stroke rate (together with my improving fitness).
But this is just off the top of my head - I am sure others will have an opinion on this.
- Mike Channin
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Hi Wayne.
Firstly, to get your times to show on your postings, you have to edit your signature in your profile. Thomas can explain the full details - I think he did a posting on it somewhere already.
As for stroke rates, a common flaw in beginning rowers is to fly up and down the slide at high rate without actually putting in much work. How many times have you been in a gym and sat down next to someone rating 35+ but only splitting about 2:30? (And do they usually give up the second you sit there and pull 2:00 flat at 16 SPM in your warmup?)
There's a whole load of stuff on the main UK forum about technique and drive-time to recovery-time ratios which I won't duplicate here. To summarise it though, you should be using the recovery to recover (!) and rushing the slide (typified by high stroke rate (SPM)) compromises this, and leads to you getting tired and out of breath at a relatively easy pace.
Similarly, stroking TOO slowly will require you to pull extremely hard on each stroke, and will overload the muscles and lactate while not particularly stressing the cardio system (relatively). This is almost like weight-lifting using the erg instead, and as such is good for exercises, but is far from optimal for recording fast times. Very low SPM work puts a massive strain on the muscles and tendons and is much more likely to result in injury (particularly to the back) unless your technique is good, so approach it with care.
So there is an optimum stroke rate for most distances which balances the cardio performances against the sustainable muscle power. From recollection, my optimum rates are approximately as follows (and these are roughly what the general consensus figures tend to be - again there is a UK forum thread somewhere currently discussing this):
< 500m - As fast as you can go and hold technique. I hit 52 SPM doing my low pull, and that was a full stroke!
500m - 34-40
1000m - 34ish
2000m - 32ish
5000m - 30ish
10000m - 29ish
60mins - 28ish
HM - 27ish
FM - 25-26 (for flat out maximal - 24ish for lower intensity)
I also find my stroke rate will fade upwards during a maximal piece, as my muscles become tired and my technique and 'sharpness' of the stroke decreases. (This is effectively using cardio fitness to keep going, when the power and technique starts to fade). There are people who say this shouldn't happen and you should hold good form all the way through, but I'm faster doing this, and it makes sense to me, so I don't worry too much.
What I'd recommend for you is to do some lower rate exercises to make sure you're using good technique and a powerful stroke. Try some intervals of a couple of minutes at 24SPM at a reasonably hard pace and then relax for a minute or two and then go again, repeat for the amount of time you have (minus warmup and cooldown). Over the sessions, gradually reduce the SPM, and see how it feels. (You may notice a bit of delayed onset muscle soreness with this initially, as this is a bit like weight lifting - it'll go away as your body adapts (and "no pain, no gain!"))
A useful measure of stroking power is SPI (Stroke Power Index), which is the Wattage divided by the number of strokes per minute (SPM) - effectively measuring the power PER STROKE. Check this and see how what sort of figures you're getting. As you train up, you should see this figure naturally increase as your conditioning improves. You can do various low SPM exercises to work specifically on this, like the one above.
DON'T get obsessed with SPI as the be-all-and-end-all, as some people do. It is merely one of many indicators of your performance. Obviously, increasing the stroke rate (SPM) while holding the SPI will result in faster times, but as the rate comes up, so does the level of muscle fatigue and stress on the other body systems, to the point where this is no longer sustainable. You can't just extrapolate from x SPI at 20 SPM to x SPI at 40 SPM and expect it to work. (There is a controversial figure on the main forums who seems to believe that you _can_ do this, but his results are somewhat unproven
Final comment is that, obviously, taller and heavier people have a longer, stronger stroke, and can pull the same pace at a lower rate, as a general rule of thumb. Conversely, shorter people (like myself (short, against the average heavyweight)) have to rate higher to compensate for the shorter stroke. But remember, efficiency of technique is the key!
And Thomas, I didn't say you were 'too slow'. Your pace is ideal for a steady-state exercise in stroke power. I _did_ say that you'd probably go faster in a maximal piece if you used a higher stroke rate, say 24-25ish (or see table above). Try it and see!
Firstly, to get your times to show on your postings, you have to edit your signature in your profile. Thomas can explain the full details - I think he did a posting on it somewhere already.
As for stroke rates, a common flaw in beginning rowers is to fly up and down the slide at high rate without actually putting in much work. How many times have you been in a gym and sat down next to someone rating 35+ but only splitting about 2:30? (And do they usually give up the second you sit there and pull 2:00 flat at 16 SPM in your warmup?)
There's a whole load of stuff on the main UK forum about technique and drive-time to recovery-time ratios which I won't duplicate here. To summarise it though, you should be using the recovery to recover (!) and rushing the slide (typified by high stroke rate (SPM)) compromises this, and leads to you getting tired and out of breath at a relatively easy pace.
Similarly, stroking TOO slowly will require you to pull extremely hard on each stroke, and will overload the muscles and lactate while not particularly stressing the cardio system (relatively). This is almost like weight-lifting using the erg instead, and as such is good for exercises, but is far from optimal for recording fast times. Very low SPM work puts a massive strain on the muscles and tendons and is much more likely to result in injury (particularly to the back) unless your technique is good, so approach it with care.
So there is an optimum stroke rate for most distances which balances the cardio performances against the sustainable muscle power. From recollection, my optimum rates are approximately as follows (and these are roughly what the general consensus figures tend to be - again there is a UK forum thread somewhere currently discussing this):
< 500m - As fast as you can go and hold technique. I hit 52 SPM doing my low pull, and that was a full stroke!
500m - 34-40
1000m - 34ish
2000m - 32ish
5000m - 30ish
10000m - 29ish
60mins - 28ish
HM - 27ish
FM - 25-26 (for flat out maximal - 24ish for lower intensity)
I also find my stroke rate will fade upwards during a maximal piece, as my muscles become tired and my technique and 'sharpness' of the stroke decreases. (This is effectively using cardio fitness to keep going, when the power and technique starts to fade). There are people who say this shouldn't happen and you should hold good form all the way through, but I'm faster doing this, and it makes sense to me, so I don't worry too much.
What I'd recommend for you is to do some lower rate exercises to make sure you're using good technique and a powerful stroke. Try some intervals of a couple of minutes at 24SPM at a reasonably hard pace and then relax for a minute or two and then go again, repeat for the amount of time you have (minus warmup and cooldown). Over the sessions, gradually reduce the SPM, and see how it feels. (You may notice a bit of delayed onset muscle soreness with this initially, as this is a bit like weight lifting - it'll go away as your body adapts (and "no pain, no gain!"))
A useful measure of stroking power is SPI (Stroke Power Index), which is the Wattage divided by the number of strokes per minute (SPM) - effectively measuring the power PER STROKE. Check this and see how what sort of figures you're getting. As you train up, you should see this figure naturally increase as your conditioning improves. You can do various low SPM exercises to work specifically on this, like the one above.
DON'T get obsessed with SPI as the be-all-and-end-all, as some people do. It is merely one of many indicators of your performance. Obviously, increasing the stroke rate (SPM) while holding the SPI will result in faster times, but as the rate comes up, so does the level of muscle fatigue and stress on the other body systems, to the point where this is no longer sustainable. You can't just extrapolate from x SPI at 20 SPM to x SPI at 40 SPM and expect it to work. (There is a controversial figure on the main forums who seems to believe that you _can_ do this, but his results are somewhat unproven
Final comment is that, obviously, taller and heavier people have a longer, stronger stroke, and can pull the same pace at a lower rate, as a general rule of thumb. Conversely, shorter people (like myself (short, against the average heavyweight)) have to rate higher to compensate for the shorter stroke. But remember, efficiency of technique is the key!
And Thomas, I didn't say you were 'too slow'. Your pace is ideal for a steady-state exercise in stroke power. I _did_ say that you'd probably go faster in a maximal piece if you used a higher stroke rate, say 24-25ish (or see table above). Try it and see!
5'11", 50 - older, slower, greyer, fatter (and needs to update the sig times too)
- johnglynn
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Hello Wayne welcome to the forum
I think you should also try rowing strapless, this is when you don't put the foot straps on . To stay on the rower you will probably have to row a slower SPM then your used to . Your feet will slip off a lot at the start but you will soon get the hang of it after about 10 distance rows.
By rowing strapless you will be forced to row a little slower then normal, but it should improve your technique . This improved technique will hopefully stay there when you row strapped .
Your stroke rates look good . I'm a big heavy man myself and row 24 SPM for very long rows, upto 38 SPM for very short sprints
ERG is another name for the C2 rower (I think)
GMT is Greenwich Mean Time, Greenwich is in London
I think you should also try rowing strapless, this is when you don't put the foot straps on . To stay on the rower you will probably have to row a slower SPM then your used to . Your feet will slip off a lot at the start but you will soon get the hang of it after about 10 distance rows.
By rowing strapless you will be forced to row a little slower then normal, but it should improve your technique . This improved technique will hopefully stay there when you row strapped .
Your stroke rates look good . I'm a big heavy man myself and row 24 SPM for very long rows, upto 38 SPM for very short sprints
ERG is another name for the C2 rower (I think)
GMT is Greenwich Mean Time, Greenwich is in London
- Gregor Andrews
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- Stan
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While in no way disagreeing with Mike and John, I think best stroke rate is to some extent whatever you are comfortable at. 28 spm is my optimum. I occasionally try lower stroke rates and I will introduce more lower stroke stuff after my marathon in October. I did 10k at 16 spm yesterday and it just felt awful (really hurt the legs, so it must have done some good!) - probably because I am not used to it. I think I will try Johns suggestion of doing it strapless. Being a very short person (5'6") I need a faster stroke rate than taller people to maintain a reasonable split.
pb times
- BigWaveDave
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I'm glad that this has been posted as I had been wondering if my rate was too high but having read Mike's inidcations it looks like I fall just about right. I find that trying to go slower than 22spm feels really uncomfortable and takes a lot more concentration on that rather than technique. I will give it ago without the straps but think I might need to put something soft around the erg as I'm sure I'll fall off at some point.
BigD
PS have tried to attach my times via the link on the C2 site but not sure if it has worked or not - probalby not. If not does anyone have some tips?
BigD
PS have tried to attach my times via the link on the C2 site but not sure if it has worked or not - probalby not. If not does anyone have some tips?
BigWaveDave
52 yrs, 6' 14st 11lb
PB's
52 yrs, 6' 14st 11lb
PB's
- Thomas W-P
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I know this doesn't fit on this thread, but:
You need to change your signature from this:
BigWaveDave
42 years old, 6',
http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1158006555.png
to this
BigWaveDave
42 years old, 6',
[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1158006555.png[/img]
Then the signature will look like this!
BigWaveDave
42 years old, 6',
You need to change your signature from this:
BigWaveDave
42 years old, 6',
http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1158006555.png
to this
BigWaveDave
42 years old, 6',
[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1158006555.png[/img]
Then the signature will look like this!
BigWaveDave
42 years old, 6',
- johnglynn
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Hello BigWaveDave
Your new signature in the Thomas format should be working
In Profiles under the signature label, do you have the following
HTML is OFF
BBCode is ON
Smilies are ON
I think your BBCode might be turned off
When Posting a reply you can "Disable BBCode in this post", if you have this selected you should probably unselect it
Your new signature in the Thomas format should be working
In Profiles under the signature label, do you have the following
HTML is OFF
BBCode is ON
Smilies are ON
I think your BBCode might be turned off
When Posting a reply you can "Disable BBCode in this post", if you have this selected you should probably unselect it
- Mike Channin
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Back on the subject of stroke rates...
Did 2 x 5k either side of weights workout today. Now usually the one afterwards is harder than the one before, for obvious reasons.
Now both of them are supposed to be recovery zone, light work only.
Today the first was 20:57.0, 21 SPM (20.93) and felt quite hard work.
Hr Av 139, Max 145, End HR 142, 1 min recovery 107 (35 beat recovery)
In contrast, the second felt REALLY easy and relaxed, and the HR was even dropping back towards the end. Time 20:53.8, 23 SPM (23.26)
HR av 134, Max 139, End HR 137, 1 min recovery 97 (40 beat recovery)
So this is as good an example as I can find at short notice of how a more optimal stroke rate is much easier to pull.
Did 2 x 5k either side of weights workout today. Now usually the one afterwards is harder than the one before, for obvious reasons.
Now both of them are supposed to be recovery zone, light work only.
Today the first was 20:57.0, 21 SPM (20.93) and felt quite hard work.
Hr Av 139, Max 145, End HR 142, 1 min recovery 107 (35 beat recovery)
In contrast, the second felt REALLY easy and relaxed, and the HR was even dropping back towards the end. Time 20:53.8, 23 SPM (23.26)
HR av 134, Max 139, End HR 137, 1 min recovery 97 (40 beat recovery)
So this is as good an example as I can find at short notice of how a more optimal stroke rate is much easier to pull.
5'11", 50 - older, slower, greyer, fatter (and needs to update the sig times too)
SPM
Hey ALL,
Thanks for all the replies. Will try going "strapless" for a few workouts, was wondering if that works with...oh never mind... ...sorry..my mind was else where.
I am one of those short heavy weights, 5'10" and 191lbs and find that I breath easier at @ 28spm on rows of 10k or longer...unless I am just "yanking the chain" to get meters in, then my spm can drop to @ 24 and I dont get as many meters. Pace goes all to hell.
But you gave me some ideas to think about and some things to try. Will let you know how things go.
Thanks all.
Wayne
Thanks for all the replies. Will try going "strapless" for a few workouts, was wondering if that works with...oh never mind... ...sorry..my mind was else where.
I am one of those short heavy weights, 5'10" and 191lbs and find that I breath easier at @ 28spm on rows of 10k or longer...unless I am just "yanking the chain" to get meters in, then my spm can drop to @ 24 and I dont get as many meters. Pace goes all to hell.
But you gave me some ideas to think about and some things to try. Will let you know how things go.
Thanks all.
Wayne
going strapless
Hey Mike, (and ALL who replied)
Tried strapless for 30 min. My spm dropped to 24-25. Had to sacrefice a little power to stay on the rower, only slipped once.
Didn't really try to go for alot of power anyway, wanted to get comfortable first. I actually did better then I thought, was pretty easy to keep my feet on the boards.
Thanks again for the help, will continue to moniter my form, thanks for all the info.
Wayne
Tried strapless for 30 min. My spm dropped to 24-25. Had to sacrefice a little power to stay on the rower, only slipped once.
Didn't really try to go for alot of power anyway, wanted to get comfortable first. I actually did better then I thought, was pretty easy to keep my feet on the boards.
Thanks again for the help, will continue to moniter my form, thanks for all the info.
Wayne
- Mike Channin
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Glad it's going well Wayne, keep us posted.
Have to confess I've never been very keen on rowing strapless. Did have a little go the other day while trying to teach someone technique, and was pleasently surprised to find it worked ok (which means my technique must have improved a lot since last time I tried it).
Have to confess I've never been very keen on rowing strapless. Did have a little go the other day while trying to teach someone technique, and was pleasently surprised to find it worked ok (which means my technique must have improved a lot since last time I tried it).
5'11", 50 - older, slower, greyer, fatter (and needs to update the sig times too)