Firstbeat Athlete

A forum for discussing training programmes, indoor racing, things that work for you, coaching etc.

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Doc RowSlo
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

mgiven wrote:Woudln't keeping them as two activities make the "coach" calculate one extra activity, when it was really just one long one with a break AND sneak an extra 138 into my weekly EPOC SUM total?
Yes, that's true.

One thing to keep in mind is that FBA is only looking at the cardiovascular load of the exercise session. The term Training Effect is misleading in this respect as it doesn't really reflect the muscular effort effort involved in the exercise session, merely the cardiovascular "effort". Clearly the two are not completely independent. For example, your two run reps with a short break will obviously have been more physically fatiguing than had you stopped after the first one, although the TE and EPOC would have been the same. The overall training load and effect on your fitness will have been greater by completing the second run, even though the cardiac stress was no greater on this occasion. What FBA suggested here is that there was no further reduction in heart rate variability during the second run. It uses this HRV as the surrogate marker for estimating cardiac fatigue.

Personally, I think that the training coach function is of relatively little use.

As others have said, where FBA really comes into its own is when compairing similar workouts, rather than analysing individual ones, and for providing an indication of when you are "overdoing things".
For example, my last row was a 10k at a pace that would normally produce a low (recovery) TE. It followed a 2 week period of training every day (obviously a mix of hard and not so hard sessions) and although the average HR was only 139 (pretty low for a 10k for me), the EPOC was 98ml/kg with a TE of 3.2. Two days previously, a 2 hour row (just over 30k) at a slightly faster pace resulted in a peak EPOC of 66ml/kg and a TE of 2.8
The 10k recovery row didn't feel at all hard physically, but clearly I was paying the price cardiovascularly for the recent heavy training load.
For me, it's things like that that make the programme very useful.
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Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

Doc RowSlo wrote:
Personally, I think that the training coach function is of relatively little use.

As others have said, where FBA really comes into its own is when compairing similar workouts, rather than analysing individual ones, and for providing an indication of when you are "overdoing things".
For example, my last row was a 10k at a pace that would normally produce a low (recovery) TE. It followed a 2 week period of training every day (obviously a mix of hard and not so hard sessions) and although the average HR was only 139 (pretty low for a 10k for me), the EPOC was 98ml/kg with a TE of 3.2. Two days previously, a 2 hour row (just over 30k) at a slightly faster pace resulted in a peak EPOC of 66ml/kg and a TE of 2.8
The 10k recovery row didn't feel at all hard physically, but clearly I was paying the price cardiovascularly for the recent heavy training load.
For me, it's things like that that make the programme very useful.
Spot on Lee , agree completely that is exactly how I use it, although I do sometimes allow the training coach to push me towards a high Te row if I haven't done one in a while.

Re merging workouts.. I would leave them as 2 purely because the Te calcs are not good for intervals.

Best wishes
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

For my birthday, I was lucky enough to be given a Garmin Forerunner 610 :D :D :D
The configurability is so much better than my Suunto t6 and the built in GPS with the pretty maps that Garmin software can produce for bike rides makes it very attractive. Add to that the fact that data transfer from a t6 to FBA via that awful USB lead can be a real pain in the backside, and I reckon that I could be very happy. Reliability must also be better than Suunto, surely! (Although, I doubt that their aftersales service could be an improvement on Suunto's, which is superb).
All that is of rather less use if the HRV analysis isn't up to the job, so I thought that I'd run a little comparison during my 3x6k today.

The session went like this:
3x6k/2'r
01:57.8__r20__EHR 143
01:57.8__r20__EHR 147
01:57.4__r21__EHR 146

Below are the graphs for HR, EPOC and Respiration rate from the various set ups. Black is the Garmin ANT belt data via the 610, Red is the Suunto ANT belt data via the t6 and Green is the Suunto ANT belt data direct to FBA via a Suunto PC Pod. (Most of the time the red and green are superimposed, making the red dificult to see)
ANT Belts HR.jpg
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ANT Belts EPOC.jpg
ANT Belts EPOC.jpg (39.69 KiB) Viewed 5612 times
ANT Belts Resp rate.jpg
ANT Belts Resp rate.jpg (48.65 KiB) Viewed 5612 times
Looks like the only significant difference is with the measurement of respiratory rate (which I've always considered rather dubious anyway).
Importantly the EPOCs were all pretty comparable:

Suunto (PC Pod): 43__70__67
Suunto (t6): 43__70__68
Garmin 610: 39__68__67

All of the devices returned a TE of 2.9 via FBA.

All in all, quite reassuring :-)
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Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

I always thought that the high belt failure rate and short battery life (about 4 weeks with me) for the Suunto ANT belts was due to the high sampling frequency and the resultant load on the circuitry.
It seems strange then that my new Garmin belt's battery life is estimated in the user manual at 4.5 years with 1 hour of use per day!!!!

I guess that I'll find out soon.
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Mat »

Interesting comparisons Lee - and reassuring to a degree that all of the pretty graphs are pretty consistent :D Aside from respiratory rate of course, which as you say, we've long suspected to be rather dodgy to say the least :-k

I'm with you on belt life, but 4 weeks for batteries does sound extremely low - for comparison I'd say that I tend to get 3-4 months, with an average of an hour per day. 4.5 hours sounds incredible though :shock: :!:

Hope you continue to enjoy the new toy 8) :D
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by slwiser »

Doc

Looking forward toward your reports on you new equipment. I may have to sell my Suunto and get a Garmin if this should great results for reliability. I really don't trust Suunto stuff with my experience.

The way I put it is that Suunto requires me to have at least two of everything I use. That makes it twice as expensive as it appears.
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

I like my Garmin 610 very much- but 2 or 3 significant snags

battery life is poor - 5hrs or so if using gps on the bike with minimal backlight
Only IP7 water resistant - so not suitable for swimming = but ok on bike. I will try it sailing as well which should be ok
touch screen not easy to use when wet from rain (may be bad user technique)

Not show stoppers - but disappointing

That said the import R-R file into FBA via ant stick works like a dream 8)
Cadence sensor is much better than suunto pods

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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

Huw Thomas wrote: battery life is poor - 5hrs or so if using gps on the bike with minimal backlight
Only IP7 water resistant - so not suitable for swimming = but ok on bike. I will try it sailing as well which should be ok
touch screen not easy to use when wet from rain (may be bad user technique)
I've not tried a bike session with GPS yet............it will have to wait until the temperature gets towards 10 degrees C, but 5 hours would be a little disappointing.
The water resistance thing is slightly confusing. The manual states that "It can withstand immersion in 1 meter of water for 30 minutes. Prolonged submersion can cause damage to the unit." and also "Water resistance 30m". It does also state that "The Forerunner is not intended to be used while swimming". I guess that you'll be safe enough using it while sailing.

Another slight disappointment for me is that you can't use the FBA training monitor to look at EPOC and TE in real time.
Also, the PM4 doesn't seem to recognise the Garmin ANT belt, although I think that it ought to :? Perhaps it's because I think that Garmin are now using ANT+, whatever that is!
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

Doc RowSlo wrote: Also, the PM4 doesn't seem to recognise the Garmin ANT belt, although I think that it ought to :? Perhaps it's because I think that Garmin are now using ANT+, whatever that is!
That's strange. The PM4 has decided to detect the Garmin belt today! :? :? :?
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete / Suunto driver

Post by SebSch »

Hello all!

Originally being an outdoor rower I stumbled across your great forum while searching the old driver for the Suunto USB PC-Pod. We are trying to display the live heart rate using Training Manger or Suunto Monitor. However, I can only find the "new" Movescout driver software which does not seem to work with Suunto Monitor.

Is there a chance anyone of you could send me the 'standard' USB-driver that would potentially work with Suunto Monitor?

Thanks very much guys!

Seb
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by badocter »

I think the downloads you are looking for are on the "story" tab of the following linked page:

http://www.suunto.com/en/products/Softw ... ger/#Story

Good luck ! :fsbgrin:
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by SebSch »

Thanks very much - they finally work (even on a Win7 32bit machine)!
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

Doc RowSlo wrote:
Doc RowSlo wrote: Also, the PM4 doesn't seem to recognise the Garmin ANT belt, although I think that it ought to :? Perhaps it's because I think that Garmin are now using ANT+, whatever that is!
That's strange. The PM4 has decided to detect the Garmin belt today! :? :? :?
My 610 has stopped working after a ride in the rain ...back with Garmin :oops:
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

:roll: New replacement 610 arrived today :shock: [-o<
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Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

Huw Thomas wrote:
My 610 has stopped working after a ride in the rain ...back with Garmin :oops:
Can't say that I'm very happy about that! In fact, I'm more than a little nervous.
How long did it last?
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

Doc RowSlo wrote:
Huw Thomas wrote:
My 610 has stopped working after a ride in the rain ...back with Garmin :oops:
Can't say that I'm very happy about that! In fact, I'm more than a little nervous.
How long did it last?
2 weeks #-o
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by stumpy »

Hi all not really a first Beat question but as I have just bought a new laptop I have downloaded Dan Burpee's RP spread sheet program, but I am having problems loading the row Pro files into it . upon trying to load the files I get the message telling me that macros maybe disabled. can anybody point me in the right direction please.
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

colin bradley wrote:Hi all not really a first Beat question but as I have just bought a new laptop I have downloaded Dan Burpee's RP spread sheet program, but I am having problems loading the row Pro files into it . upon trying to load the files I get the message telling me that macros maybe disabled. can anybody point me in the right direction please.
260512.PNG

in excel 2007 when the spreadsheet opens there is a dialog opens that says do you want to enable macros
say yes! then it works :fsbgrin:

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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by stumpy »

Thanks Huw, all sorted excel 2010 needed a little more than a single click to enable macros but thats another story :lol:
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

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Really not very good at following FBA advise of intensity of session am I :roll: :roll: :roll:

Building after short lay off but its so easy on the tacx trainer to push on #-o
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

Huw Thomas wrote: Really not very good at following FBA advise of intensity of session am I :roll: :roll: :
It's just a computer program Huw ;-)
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by zootMutant »

FYI

I recently re-installed my operating system (Windows XP). Firstbeat Athlete stores files under "Documents and Settings" in a folder called, amazingly enough, "Firstbeat Files". I backed up this folder and then re-installed it after I re-installed my operating system.

Result - I lost all my Firstbeat data! #-o

Apparently, most of what gets stored in this folder is the raw data collected from my Suunto t6c. I was able to import all that data back into Firstbeat, but Notes, Journal markers, and Distances I had rowed were all gone (obviously, since I originally entered this data after uploading data from my heart rate monitor.) Also, I must have clicked a button somewhere, during the import, because all the workout now have the same Activity Class, Max/Min Heartrate, and Weight! (I can change this... I could even try the import again... I just don't have the energy right now.)

The real Firstbeat file that you need to backup is not located in this Folder!

I think the real file might be C:\Program Files\Firstbeat\Firstbeat ATHLETE\Data\FIRSTBEAT.IB... but I'm not sure.

Anyway, according to FBA tech support, the best way to backup your Firstbeat data is to go to export it from the FILE menu, so that you can import it later.

FILE => EXPORT and then select a path.

Just thought you'd like to know. :wink:
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Stan »

Very useful information Zoot, thanks for that
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Doc RowSlo »

zootMutant wrote:FYI


I think the real file might be C:\Program Files\Firstbeat\Firstbeat ATHLETE\Data\FIRSTBEAT.IB... but I'm not sure.
Yes, I think that that's correct. I've used that in the past when changing laptops.
zootMutant wrote: Anyway, according to FBA tech support, the best way to backup your Firstbeat data is to go to export it from the FILE menu, so that you can import it later.

FILE => EXPORT and then select a path.

Just thought you'd like to know. :wink:
Probably the best way to do it, but not tried. Thanks for the info.

The biggest problem I had was that my activation code was invalid when I changed laptops. However, FirstBeat sent me a new one in response to a simple e-mail.
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Re: Firstbeat Athlete

Post by Huw Thomas »

oversight wrote:Oh boy, I have a stair-climbing race in 7 weeks time. It's about a 7-8min event if you were to think about this in terms of distance you might row in that time.... I would love some advice on how I can use the Firstbeat software to help with my training.

To help me train I just purchased a second hand Suunto T6c, and got the Firstbeat Athlete software. I am a little dismayed with the Coach function, which I was hoping would guide my training leading up to the event :( After cruising the internet looking for advice most of my searches led me here and I have read the rather exhaustive topic on the software in this forum. After only a day or two of use, I too have concluded that I will pretty much have to give up on the use of the coach function.

I seem to have a Activity Class of about 7.5 - 8.0. Most of my training for the stair-run event consists of high intensity intervals with TE's coming in around the 3.2 - 4.2 region. (I have used at Suunto T3c for the last year as well).

Now I am in a bit of a flap, I seem to have masses of information at my fingertips with little idea how best to use it. Are there any simple instructions anywhere on how best to use EPOC (and I am assuming that's the best measure) to monitor the progress of my training. EPOC and the night measurements to avoid overtraining seem like the best features, in this regard?

Cheers in advance for any advice or pointers in the right direction you can throw my way.

I basically just watch if I do a couple of high te's 4+ then I will do a rest day or low te recovery row.
FBA coach function I don't use to pick sessions - there are better plans IMHO eg the Wolverine an, Pete plan or c2 interactive plan

I do like to compare the same sessions looking at the graphs that FBA does so well
Best wishes

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