Firstbeat Athlete

[badocter]

Who is using this software and how are you using it? I downloaded the free trial and have 11 days left before I have to decide whether to purchase a license. I know some of you are using it to track TE. Is anybody using the coach feature?

http://www.firstbeat.fi/index.php?page=3&sub_page=128

I have a Suunto PC-POD and chestbelt to collect the HR data directly into Athlete.

[slwiser]

I use it and have a lot of posts over on the Cardiac Athletes forum in my journal if you want to check them out. I use both FB and Suunto's STM in my posts.

Here is an example of using part of the coach feature: http://www.cardiacathletes.org.uk/forum ... tcount=146

Here is an example of another screen from FBA: http://www.cardiacathletes.org.uk/forum ... tcount=112

And another combining images from both STM and FBA: http://www.cardiacathletes.org.uk/forum ... stcount=83

I let FBA coach take me up from an AC level of 7 to 7.5 for a week or two but learned that I my conditioning level yet matched 7.5 so I dropped it down again.

You can change the coach function to fit any schedule you desire. If it tells you to do something on one day and you need to do something else simply change it to a rest day or a level that you can fit into your schedule and the coach function will adjust the days following to keep your total weekly EPOC in the range of your AC and training levels. Notice on the third link you can see an AC of 7.5 but a training level of 5. The coach will cycle you through the training levels within any particular AC level to achieve easy, moderate and hard weeks as you can see in my history images shown. Typically it will cycle from 4, 5, 6 or keep on asking you to allow it to move you up to another AC level. I have learned that for me there is a great difference between an AC of 7 and 7.5. I get asked to do to many 4.8TE workouts at 7.5 for me to recovery adequately. Given the time I workout during the week it would actually push me to an AC level 8 if I let it.

Summary, FBA coach initially, until you learn to say no, is much like a coach that never lets you rest. It will always attempt to push you to a higher AC level; i.e., harder training. You have to learn to say no to it. I have learned that using the STM's image showing Training Effect over time will give me much of what FBA does for me in the coach. I can see a periodicity of my hard days/weeks and see that I need to back off for an easy week following a hard one. The following link shows this screen in STM: http://www.cardiacathletes.org.uk/forum ... tcount=104

Maybe you already know most of this but this is my take on FBA.

[Doc RowSlo]

Hi Bill.
I've been using FB Athlete for over a year now and find it very useful. I use it principally to compare training effects for similar workouts over time and thus to monitor cardiovascular improvements and/or fatigue. I also find it particularly useful in ensuring that my recovery sessions are exactly that, as I have a habit of overdoing things on occasions.

As for the training coach, I look at it (pretty much every day) but don't really take much notice of the workout duration and intensities that it suggests. I tend to follow common sense, and the advice given by Eddie Fletcher, amongst others. Put simply, after sessions with a high TE (>4), I will endeavour to schedule a recovery session for the following day (or a rest day). Successive days with TE's in the high 3's are treated similarly. Actually, this approach pretty much follows the training pattern of most, if not all, of the structured training plans in common useage.

A word of caution in using this software. It is absolutely crucial that you enter accurate persoanlised physiological data when setting it up. Height, weight, activity class, maximum heart rate etc. Of these, heart rate is the most important as very small differences in the MHR that you enter have a very significant effect on the TE that the software reports. For example, I have a MHR of 182 (or atleast, I did a year ago) and my activity class is set to 8.5. The hard 10k that I did yesterday had a TE of 3.8 but if you calculate it using a MHR of 179 then the TE comes back at 3.9. If you further change the AC from 8.5 to 8.0 then the TE becomes 4.0.
Repeating these steps for my last recovery session which had a TE of 3.0 gives "new" values of 3.2 and 3.2. Last week's hard 40 minutes (TE 4.0) becomes 4.2 and 4.3

These differences may not actually sound very big or very significant, but they certainly are if you're using this software as a serious training tool. Also, the variations are much more exagerated if you are less fit. A year ago I did a hard 60 minute session with a TE of 4.5 at a pace much slower than I would today. The AC was 8.0 at the time. Reanalysing the data with a MHR of 179 (v182) and then an AC of 7.5 changes the TE from 4.5 to 4.8 and then 5.0! The scale actually stops at 5.0.

Steve is also quite right about resisting the temptation to let the software flatter you by constantly increasing your activity class. For me this variable is the most difficult to be accurate about. It's a slightly woolly and unsatisfactory concept IMO. It seems to be related to your VO2 Max which the software refers to as METs Max. I had a bit of correspondance with Eddie Fletcher about it a while ago which didn't actually make it any clearer! Although it's certainly related mathematically to VO2 Max, you have to enter MET's Max independently of AC, so they are clearly not the same thing. AC also involves the training load in hours of exercise per week etc but the relationship here is also somewhat fuzzy.

My persoanl opinion is that this is great software and potentially very useful but you have to be very careful indeed as to how you use it, or it's potentially very misleading!

[stumpy]

Interesting post Bill (and reply Steve)
We both downloaded this trail software on the same day as I also have 11 days left so i'm still playing with it at present my main concern at present is relating to its use after interval sessions ie 8x500 the other day when I was totally spent but only got a TE of 2.3 then the next day it wanted me to do a 4.5 TE session???? having said that I think it will be useful so I may well be getting it after Xmas will be interested in what the other Doc has to say

[stumpy]

Lee your ears must of been burning matey
Edit this year during my 5k PB (30/5/09) my EHR was 177 this is the highest I'v ever seen during my 2 years of erging or at any time come to mention it Question is am I right in calling this my Max HR? as all my other PBs are around 170/174

[Doc RowSlo]

........ at present my main concern at present is relating to its use after interval sessions ie 8x500 the other day when I was totally spent but only got a TE of 2.3 then the next day it wanted me to do a 4.5 TE session????

That's an easy one Colin. The whole concept of calculatingTE and EPOC from HRV analysis is based upon long duration, relatively steady state exercise. With an 8x500 interval session, the periods of exercise are very intense but also very short compared with the recovery periods between reps.
The result is that you get big bursts of lactate being produced but not for long. Your muscles are completely wasted but with relatively little reduction is HRV and so a small TE. The "training coach" wanted you to do a hard session the following day because it did not appreciate the traing load of the 8x500. This is one of the reasons why I take relatively little notice of the coach!

I did a 3k wu @ 01:53 ave pace and then a 6:36 2k and cd with Wolfie on Thursday but the TE was only 2.6! I wouldn't generally class that as a recovery session

In general the session has to be longer than 30 minutes and have very short recovery periods relative to the active ones, in order for the TE to make any real sense. So 2x6k/2'r will produce meaningful data but 8x500m/3:30r probably won't.

[stumpy]

Thank you Lee much appreicate the time and effort in your reply

[slwiser]

Lee your ears must of been burning matey
Edit this year during my 5k PB (30/5/09) my EHR was 177 this is the highest I'v ever seen during my 2 years of erging or at any time come to mention it Question is am I right in calling this my Max HR? as all my other PBs are around 170/174

There was a discussion about this issue over on the Suunto forum. Eddie Fletcher suggested that for intervals that you manual adjust you TE calculation. Here is a copy of how I re-wrote this:

"The best way to evaluate your total TE for your one hour workout (with intervals) is to get into STM and move the two black vertical lines across each of the individual workouts, holding the left vertical line to the start of your first interval and the right vertical line at the end of the first interval. Write down the time showing in the detail below and note the average heart rate. Now, do this for each of the six workouts (intervals) that you did. Sum the times and do an average of the average HRs across those six intervals. Open up the Training Effect calculator and set the time to what you total Sum happens to be. Then having the time set move the average heart rate and scroll over to the average HR for your six workouts that you calculated. The resulting EPOC will be the total for your total workout. This EPOC will be used to determine your actual TE for that one hour period as seen on the right side of the TE calculator."

You manually enter this into the coach for that day. Click on the check box to not use the actual data and select the manually entered data for the coach to use the new TE calculated manually.

[Doc RowSlo]

Edit this year during my 5k PB (30/5/09) my EHR was 177 this is the highest I'v ever seen during my 2 years of erging or at any time come to mention it Question is am I right in calling this my Max HR? as all my other PBs are around 170/174

It might be......and it might not! By definition it can't possibly be any lower than 177 so that is the figure that you should enter into the FBA software until you've got a better one! The only way to find out your MHR on the erg is to do a step test. This is very painful so something that I've only ever done twice! There are several versions but all basically involve progressively increasing your erg workload until you end up going flat out for as long as you possibly can. It's sort of like a 2k test but without a definite end. You just keep going until you physically collapse!

[Doc RowSlo]

"The best way to evaluate your total TE for your one hour workout (with intervals) is to get into STM and move the two black vertical lines across each of the individual workouts, holding the left vertical line to the start of your first interval and the right vertical line at the end of the first interval. Write down the time showing in the detail below and note the average heart rate. Now, do this for each of the six workouts (intervals) that you did. Sum the times and do an average of the average HRs across those six intervals. Open up the Training Effect calculator and set the time to what you total Sum happens to be. Then having the time set move the average heart rate and scroll over to the average HR for your six workouts that you calculated. The resulting EPOC will be the total for your total workout. This EPOC will be used to determine your actual TE for that one hour period as seen on the right side of the TE calculator."

You manually enter this into the coach for that day. Click on the check box to not use the actual data and select the manually entered data for the coach to use the new TE calculated manually.

Interesting Steve, but sounds like a bit of a mathematical fiddle to me. It sounds very much like Eddie is trying to make the t6 and STrAM / FB software do something for which the data simply aren't validated. I'd be a bit careful about this. It sounds like a bit of a faff in any event.
Eddie is a world expert in exercise physiology and, in particular, about heart rate variability analysis but he is very far from being independent where Suunto, C2 and FirstBeat Technologies are concerned.
Edited because Eddie is a world "expert", not an "expect"!

[stumpy]

Ok thanks but I'v got to ask the question was there much difference between the two ie. step test & PBs because if the step test did produce a significantly higher result I need to do one, please say it didnt as I really dont fancy doing a step test

[badocter]

Thanks for all the replies =D> =D> =D> Looks like interval are the weak link, but that does not surprise me since they are structurally more complex than continuous pieces and thus more difficult to model.

Another question....do you start monitoring when you begin the warmup or when you begin the main piece. Where intervals and shorter distance main pieces are concerned if the warmup is included could vastly change the TE because the warmup gives you a head start. So far I have included the warmup....I start the HR monitoring before the warmup and turn it off after the coooldown. My normal 2x2k rest 10' warmupwith the increasing intensity power 10's finished at a TE of 2.1 -- subsequent main pieces have ended in TE 3.4 for Pete's speed pyramid, and 4.5 for the waterfall (3/2.5/2k) -- I wonder where they would have finished if I had started the monitor after the warmup.... Will be interesting to see how the 8x500m goes next time I do it.

I also noticed that FB reports an error rate....for me it was 6% for today...I think I felt the belt slipping, so is the error rate related to that sort of thing...I will tighten the belt before next time, but the triangular profile that the lats present makes it hard to keep the thing from moving around.

[badocter]

Also worth noting that I did recovery work today and decided to do what I normally do and see where the TE fell. 30 mins @ 2:10 got a TE of 2.7 which surprised me a bit, but I have to admit it felt harder than recovery work normally does so I'm guessing it picked up on accumulated fatigue of the last two days workouts (4.5 and 3.1 respectively). The coach had recommended I do a TE 2.1 LSD row today and a rest day tomorrow. I rowed another 20 minutes at 2:15 that felt quite comfortable and reached what would have been a TE of 2.1. So perhaps when I have done recovery rows in the past always at 2:10, on some days that may have been ok, but on other days it may have been too much, so I think I will use the smart monitor feature to aim for the appropriate TE on recovery work and adjust the pace to match the TE target. Anyway it has recommended a rest day tomorrow which I will do, but on tuesday it wants more LSD at TE 2 which I will ignore and instead do my normal Pete Plan hard session.

[Doc RowSlo]

Another question....do you start monitoring when you begin the warmup or when you begin the main piece. Where intervals and shorter distance main pieces are concerned if the warmup is included could vastly change the TE because the warmup gives you a head start.

It doesn't really matter much Bill. Starting the monitor with the warm up is fine and seems the most appropriate thing to do. If you look at the EPOC curve you'll see that it rises during the warm up and then falls again. The Peak EPOC will occur during the main piece and it is this peak EPOC which is the most important determinant of the TE. Total duration of exercise also plays a part of course.

I also noticed that FB reports an error rate....for me it was 6% for today...I think I felt the belt slipping, so is the error rate related to that sort of thing...I will tighten the belt before next time, but the triangular profile that the lats present makes it hard to keep the thing from moving around.

Yes, that's the sort of thing that error rate includes and they are actually depicted in blue on the HR tracing rather than red. They also include data transmission problems, for example with batteries at the end of their life etc. Cardiac dysrhythmias can also trigger it .
Also, I've had half a dozen Suunto ANT belts which have been replaced mostly due to electronic failure. With these belts, one of the first signs of them failing has been a gradually increasing error rate.
According to Eddie, even logs with pretty high error rates (I think that he mentioned 30-40%) are still useable although data interpretation requires care. 6% is fine and doesn't represent anything to worry about.

I think I will use the smart monitor feature to aim for the appropriate TE on recovery work and adjust the pace to match the TE target. Anyway it has recommended a rest day tomorrow which I will do, but on tuesday it wants more LSD at TE 2 which I will ignore and instead do my normal Pete Plan hard session.

Sounds like a good idea. The smart monitor function is something that I don't use but am not really sure why. It's probably great for these recovery sessions.

[Doc RowSlo]

Ok thanks but I'v got to ask the question was there much difference between the two ie. step test & PBs because if the step test did produce a significantly higher result I need to do one, please say it didnt as I really dont fancy doing a step test

I got 182 on a step test that nearly killed me. The highest I've seen during a standard piece was 179 during a 10k. Hence my choice of 179 for my examples above. Sorry

[slwiser]

My opinion on the so-called "smart monitor" is that it presents a big problem for me. The slope of the increase in EPOC is so small during easy workouts that it will tell me that I have 90 minutes to meet my goal one minute and then 20 minutes the next. To me it only works well when I have a fairly high HR going, well at least greater than 70% which is above a recovery row target. Therefore, I do not use the "Smart Monitor" at all now.

[stumpy]

You nearly had me there Lee, right answer

[BorisZ]

[....] I also noticed that FB reports an error rate....for me it was 6% for today...I think I felt the belt slipping, so is the error rate related to that sort of thing...I will tighten the belt before next time.....

HR belt slippage is superbly controlled by my gut - VERY effective!
My Suunto belt has had no malfunction yet, just the occasional empty battery. I'm pleased with it.

[badocter]

I bought the full license today as I have been pretty pleased with the software so far. Besides, I'm a data junkie and it is too much to resist.

But there are a few annoying quirks, one of which I experienced again today....the training monitor seems to consistently over predict the TE compared to post session analysis. The coach function assigned me a TE 2.1 85 minute row, and I pretty much followed the training monitors guidance to speed up and slow down. At the 75 minute mark, I had reached TE 2.1 according to the monitor - the thing is programed to have you finish within 10 minutes of the target time on the long sessions so I decided to end the session a little early. As soon as I exited the training monitor, Athlete recomputed the TE and came up with a 1.7 What gives? Why did it tell me I did a 2.1 and then based on the same data tells me I did a 1.7. Thats a big difference I have noticed that it has a tendency to do that on other sessions too, but it was usually only a .1 or .2 difference, not a .4

[stumpy]

Hi Bill
My trial period is also up today, I'm going to sit on it for a bit and see if I miss it, I feel it doesn't address my needs at present, so I will try and make do with the TM. software.

[slwiser]

As soon as I exited the training monitor, Athlete recomputed the TE and came up with a 1.7 What gives? Why did it tell me I did a 2.1 and then based on the same data tells me I did a 1.7. Thats a big difference I have noticed that it has a tendency to do that on other sessions too, but it was usually only a .1 or .2 difference, not a .4

You are much better off asking this question here: http://www.suuntosports.com/discussions ... asp?FID=12

Eddie Fletcher will probably answer you here. He is a frequent poster there.

[badocter]

I have posted on the Suunto forum as you suggested....will be interesting to see the response if any.

[Doc RowSlo]

I just tried this function for my cooldown today after a 60 minute recovery on RP.

I dialled in 15 minutes and a TE of 1.3 and set off. I usually do my cd's keeping my HR between 110 and 120 but FBA was telling me to slow down when my HR reached 106. I followed the advice and the HR fell to 102-103 but it still told me to slow indicating that my target would be achieved in 2 minutes (a total of about 7 minutes into the row). The TE was showing 1.1 and the EPOC 3ml/kg at the time

At 10 minutes, it was still showing TE 1.1 and 4ml/kg when it announced "Target Achieved"! I carried on at my usual cool down pace i.e. HR around 110-115 for the last 5 minutes. Result: TE 1.1 EPOC Peak 4ml/kg

I'll accept that this may not be an entirely fair test given that I'd just done a 60 minute session and the cd was of short duration with a low target TE, but it still doesn't seem quite right to me.
I think that I'm down for a 12k tomorrow. I might try it again entering a target TE and time from the last time I did 12k. I suspect that that would be a fairer test but wouldn't be surprised if the result is similar to today.

Edit: I used the training monitor function of FBA for my 60 minute recovery row today, but not with a set target. I was "setting my own target" as I went along and keen that the TE did not exceed 3.0
At the end of the row, the Training Monitor displayed a TE of 2.8 with a peak EPOC showing 71ml/kg (I think). When the log was analysed on closing the TM function the numbers came back as 3.1 and 84.6ml/kg

Personally I have no idea what was going on here. Clearly the program appears to be doing something different in real time compared with post session analysis. It does, however, limit the usefulness of the real time analysis and display. I've observed that the TE seems to get updated at intervals rather than continuously (it often jumps by 0.2 rather than 0.1) but the display had only just changed to 2.8 from 2.7 and there was no sprint finish to the row (the splits were 01:57.0 r18 135, 01:57.1 r18 139, 01:57.4 r18 141, 01:57.9 r17 141, 01:57.9 r17 143).

I have a t6 but I understand that the t6c has a real time display of TE option. I'd be interested to know whether this value is also altered in the post session analysis. I suspect that it is.

[stumpy]

Hi Lee yes my T6c does the same thing only by .1-.2 though, sorry to bail on the hour on RP this morning, but far too much to eat & drink yestrday. finally getting up at 9.45 BLISS.

[badocter]

Todays workout data had no issues...TE was 3.6 in both the training monitor and the measurement history... probably did not act up because I was getting screen captures of everything that I was going to send to FB if I had another big discrepancy.

Broke my Suunto first chest strap on Thursday. Was able to repair it with cello-tape which should hold for now. I still have another belt in reserve when the current one completely bites the dust.