L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by sander »

On drag factors, I prefer to adjust the drag factor by feel and try to get it as close as possible to the OTW feeling. With a static erg this is quite hard, but I end up around 120 for the "single", and much lower for the quad or eight feeling.

Yesterday I did the 4x1km session, trying to row it at 6km pace:

Code: Select all

Workout Summary - Sep 24, 2015
--|Total|-Total-|--Avg--|-Avg-|Avg-|-Avg-|-Max-|-Avg|-Avg
--|Dist-|-Time--|-Pace--|Watts|SPM-|-HR--|-HR--|-DPS|-SPI
--|04000|14:16.1|01:47.0|285.6|29.4|172.1|184.0|09.5|09.7
Workout Details
#-|SDist|-Split-|-SPace-|Watts|SPM-|AvgHR|MaxHR|DPS-|-SPI|Comments
01|01000|03:32.3|01:46.1|292.7|29.1|165.6|180.0|09.7|10.1|
02|01000|03:34.0|01:47.0|285.7|29.2|173.6|183.0|09.6|09.8|
03|01000|03:34.8|01:47.4|282.5|29.6|174.4|184.0|09.4|09.5|
04|01000|03:35.0|01:47.5|281.7|29.6|174.9|184.0|09.4|09.5|
I basically closed my eyes at the beginning of each 1000m and rowed for 110 strokes, trying to keep 30spm with a light stroke.

Ended up slightly faster than my 6k PB pace ... :(
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by strider77 »

Well done Sander-will give that a go :wink:

Have done my weekly L2 Waterfall this week and L1-Indoor Rowers 4 mins challenge so just a couple of 15k L3s for the last two days

Will do the Joan Van Blom one day-September 26 CTC tomorrow
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by spidermac »

Strider - "just a couple of 15k`s" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: In my dreams.
Will post my wouts here tho I do a bit of a Pete plan/Wolfie mix!!! Time for the waterfall!!
WUp - 5min
3k - 1.56.2/26spm/HR 166 - had to restart as curtain got sucked into the fan after 500m!!!!
2.5k - 1.55.8/26spm/HR 169
2k - 1.54.6/28spm/HR 172
Av - 1.55.6/26spm
CD - 2k
COmments - paced quite well still had some gas for the last rep & R1 & R2 were uncomfortable but doable!!
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by gregsmith01748 »

Lovely to see all this action on the WP thread. Some very fine sessions getting done by Paul,sander, strider and spidermac.

I think I will be doing a modified WP once I am off the water. My modifications will be:
- alternate weeks between L1 workouts and peak power workouts
- dial back on the L4 pace to keep those most of those sessions about half UT2/half UT1
- do one shorter L4 per week at or above my real target pace as a strength endurance session.
- include a short 2nd session at very low intensity on the L1,L2, and L3 days to promote recovery and add a few endurance minutes. Maybe I'll call these L5 sessions?

All of these mods are trying to adapt a program designed for young women to an old dude. Maybe it's the ENWP (empty nester wolverine plan). The principles it's based on are this:
- aging effects muscle mass, that's why I am including specific sessions for peak power and strength endurance
- older athletes do not recovery as well or as quickly compared to younger athletes, that's why I am using a slower L4 pace, and adding the L5 sessions.

I think I want to figure out how to include some periodization. Some reading I've been doing suggests that a continuous training plan will result in a plateau, and it's necessary to program heavier and lighter weeks to maintain progress.

Any thoughts?
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by strider77 »

Cheers Spidey :wink:

Good job on the Waterfall =D>

I did it last Saturday and overdid the 3k@1:53.5 rather than 1:54 which meant the 2.5 k hurt more than usual :oops:
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by Paul Victory »

Nice waterfall Spidermac. I also did an L2 today - 4 x 2000m with 1500m rest. I should have been targeting 1:51.5, but this felt way too hard, so I did the first interval at between 1:54 and 1:55 pace and hoped that I might be able to negative split the session. Didn't quite go according to plan and it was a struggle to keep the intervals under 1:55 pace. I was probably still a bit faster than I should have been on the recovery intervals, but I managed to get my HR back into the 130s before each 2k started. Overall result was 30:30.9 @ 1:54.4 pace.

Splits were as follows:

Split Time Pace Rating Heart Rate
2000 7:37.4 1:54.35 28 148
1500 6:29.9 2:09.97 25 125
2000 7:38.7 1:54.68 28 159
1500 6:39.1 2:13.03 24 132
2000 7:38.8 1:54.70 28 164
1500 6:47.1 2:15.70 23 135
2000 7:36.0 1:54.00 29 163
1500 6:27.4 2:09.13 24 147

8000 30:30.9 1:54.43 28 159
6000 26:23.5 2:11.96 24 135
14000 56:54.3 2:01.94 26 146
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by gregsmith01748 »

Paul, I really think you are doing the rests way too fast. It's compromising how fast you can push the "real" intervals.
I try to get my HR down to under 2x resting rate before I start the next interval for L1s and L2s. So I make a game of trying to hit 2:30 pace exactly on every one. I inevitably go a little faster at the start of the rest, and then I finish it at 2:40 or 2:50.
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by spidermac »

Cheers for the comments guys.
Greg can only agree that us cough older athletes take longer to recover - thats why I only do 2-3 sessions a week :lol: :lol: :lol:
Paul defo think U are rowing too fast in the recovery between ivals & HR coming down to 130s sounds way too hi!!! I like to see my HR come down below 110 in the rest periods the worst its been was to start an interval was 125. As Greg says the idea is to let U get quality reps in on the intervals. This is from a man who does the bare minimum of recovery rowing on an interval session if any!!
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by sander »

Regarding rest heart rate, I impressed my colleagues today with my 45 beats per minute, a few minutes after climbing stairs to the 4th floor. Someone has brought a blood pressure meter. My blood pressure was also ok.

I agree that periodiation is very good, but it is sometimes hard to implement in reality.
Definitely, the older you get,the more important the taper becomes
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by Balkan Boy »

Hello to all from a new guy.

I'm back on the rower after two month hiatus. I just completed 3 weeks of the Pete Plan, and now segueing into the Wolverine Plan, or some sort of hybrid.

My stats are: 29 years. 189cm. 75kg. I'm underweight at the moment, and looking to get back around 82kg.
I have yet to record 'official' times for 2km, 5km etc. I did 9 weeks of Pete Plan in May-June, but right when I was supposed to test, the heat became unbearable and my gym membership expired. :D
Here are some of my times from last year, although that was in the dark ages when I used Damper 10, and didn't know much about stroke or pace:
60min - 2:18 / 10km - 2:08 / 5km - 1:56 / 2km - 1:54 / 500m - 1:40.


I did my first Level 4 of WP today.
I based it (conservatively) on 1:55/500m 2km pace.

6x10min.
168-180-168-180-168-180.
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I really enjoyed this session. I tried to be precise as possible. These low rates are new to me, but I like the discipline. My pace/stroke rate never drifted by more then 1-2 sec/spm. I only found the transition from 22spm to 16spm a little messy. It takes me 10-20sec to settle in.

What is the progression with these L4 routines?
Do you increase the stroke intervals (168,172,184 etc.) often, or stick with one routine for while?


Cheers.
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by Paul Victory »

Welcome to Free Spirits Balkan Boy.

I've only just started doing the Wolverine Plan and I'm finding the L4 sessions very difficult. I have a program set out for me covering the next three months leading up to a 2k race I will be taking part in on December 12th. This program was prepared for me by someone else and only includes one L4 session a week and is based on a 192/188 cycle using R20 & R18 every two minutes. I find this hard enough and I think I would really struggle with moving through the gears from R16 to R22.

My suggestion would be to start off with something similar to what I'm doing and then move on to something with more rate changes when you've got the hang of doing L4 sessions. But I don't really know enough about the WP to give advice to others and I'm sure some of my more experienced team mates will be able to give a more considered response to your question.

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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by Paul Victory »

Did my second 5 x 1500m today. Last time, I started at the recommended pace of 1:51.5 but struggled to hold it, partly because I was doing the recovery meters at too fast a pace. Today, I wasn't feeling that good (late night and too much drink last night! :oops: ) so I started a bit more conservatively. I also did the recovery meters a lot more slowly, and got my heart rate down to a more reasonable level before starting each interval (although probably still too high). I did the second interval slightly slower than the first one, but managed a slight negative split thereafter and made a slight improvement on my average overall pace for the intervals (although I was over a minute slower in total on the rest periods).

Splits were as follows (last time's totals in brackets):

Split Time Pace Rating Heart Rate
1500 5:37.9 1:52.63 29 142
1000 4:29.2 2:14.60 23 116
1500 5:38.7 1:52.90 29 152
1000 4:29.5 2:14.75 24 122
1500 5:37.6 1:52.53 29 158
1000 4:35.2 2:17.60 23 126
1500 5:35.9 1:51.97 30 161
1000 4:39.7 2:19.85 21 129
1500 5:30.9 1:50.30 31 167
1000 4:12.5 2:06.25 25 144

7500 28:01.0 1:52.07 29 156 (28:05.1 1:52.34 29 165)
5000 22:26.1 2:14.61 23 127 (21:20.3 2:08.03 25 147)
12500 50:27.1 02:01.08 26 141 (49:25.3 01:58.61 27 156)
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by gregsmith01748 »

Balkan Boy: Glad to see you came over to participate in the FS L4 group. Welcome aboard.

Paul: Nice 5x1500. Great negative split. Of course, you know what I am going to suggest. That you slow down the rests even more. What is your max HR? At a bare minimum you should spend the last minute or so of the rest below 2x your max, or else you are starting the next interval in a hole. The only real exception to this is when you do an interval format L3 like the 15x3'/1' where the whole point is to dig yourself into a really deep hole.

By the way, if you want to shut up about the rest pace, just let me know and I'll zip my lips. I don't want to be a pain in the ass.
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by Paul Victory »

Greg, I appreciate the comments and the advice. I presume it's my resting heart rate you're enquiringly about, not my max HR?

It's generally somewhere between 51 and 53 when I measure it first thing in the morning, so let's call it 52. I take it you're recommending I try to get my HR back below 104 by the start of each interval? I think I would probably have to average around 3 minutes per 500m to achieve this and I'm not sure I have the patience to force myself to row that slowly. But I guess I should give it a try. :roll:

One point of clarification. During any L1 or L2 session, I would expect my heart rate at the end of each interval to increase from one interval to the next. This being the case, should I not expect that my heart rate at the end of each rest period would also follow an upward trend? Would this imply that I should take longer and longer rest periods to allow my HR to drop down to the desired level?

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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by gregsmith01748 »

I don't think about it all that much. I just get a drink, towel off my head and paddle at 2:30 until the next interval rears its head. I'm usually below 110 by the end of the rest.
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by strider77 »

Welcome Balkan Boy :D

Paul I agree with Greg you are still not taking sufficent acrtive rest and its too fast.

Mike Caviston gives suggested recovery rates in the plan and I row my active rests at around 2:30/500 pace this allows my heart to get back to around 80 bpm before the next rep which is roughly 2 x RHR for me

For example last ime I did the 4 x 2ks a few weeks ago I averaged 1:52.4 and there is no way I am 2 secs /500 quicker than you on a level basis, probably the other way around.

So if you took the active rests I do which is 7.5 mins @2:30 pace you will nail it.

Its training not straining :wink:
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by Paul Victory »

It was L3 for me today - 2 x 6k with seven minutes active rest. I decided to follow the advice I had been given and concentrate on getting my heart rate down during the active rest. Last time I did this, I averaged 1:57.4 with 2 and a half minutes activ rest plus 4 and a half minutes passive rest. I decided to target 1:58 pace to start and to aim for a slight negative split.

I set it up as variable intervals with 3 x 2k zero rest, followed by 7 minutes, then another 3 x 2k. This way, I would avoid the problem of not being able to see what pace I'm rowing at during the seven minutes 'rest'. I found the pace tough enough and my splits for the first 6k were 1:58.1/1:58.0/1:57.7. I was averaging around 2:15 about half way through the 7 minutes recovery when I had an unscheduled interruption. At this point, my HR had fallen from 149 to 126.

Anyway, I missed the restart, so I just started off again (after maybe 5 or 6 minutes break in addition to the 4 minutes active recovery) and did the second 6k in a very similar time to the first - splits were 1:57.9/1:58.1/1:57.3. Overall 12k in 47:09.4 @ 1:57.9 pace. Looking forward to tomorrow's L5.

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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by spidermac »

NIce one Paul!! Lvl 4 for me today - decided to repeat last session 176/180/176/180.

wup - 5mins
176 - 2.04.8/2403m (+5)/18spm/hr-141
180 - 2.03.9/2421m(+6)/18spm/hr - 159
176 - 2.04.5/2409m(+11)/18spm/hr - 154
180 - 2.03.8/2423m(+8)/18spm/hr -164
Total - 40mins/9655m/2.04.3/18spm/hr av 156/182w (+30m)
CD - 2k

Comments - felt quite hard but closer to target & HR average 5-6 beats lower so good stuff.
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by strider77 »

Nice controlled L3 Paul :D , what is an L5 ?

Spidey very strong L4 :wink:

L1 for me tonight-8 x 500
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by dr3do »

Paul Victory wrote:I decided to follow the advice I had been given and concentrate on getting my heart rate down during the active rest.
Great, Paul. Really great. =D> =D> ^O^ =D> =D>
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by strider77 »

gregsmith01748 wrote:- Lovely to see all this action on the WP thread. Some very fine sessions getting done by Paul,sander, strider and spidermac.

I think I will be doing a modified WP once I am off the water. My modifications will be:
- alternate weeks between L1 workouts and peak power workouts
- dial back on the L4 pace to keep those most of those sessions about half UT2/half UT1
- do one shorter L4 per week at or above my real target pace as a strength endurance session.
- include a short 2nd session at very low intensity on the L1,L2, and L3 days to promote recovery and add a few endurance minutes. Maybe I'll call these L5 sessions?

All of these mods are trying to adapt a program designed for young women to an old dude. Maybe it's the ENWP (empty nester wolverine plan). The principles it's based on are this:
- aging effects muscle mass, that's why I am including specific sessions for peak power and strength endurance
- older athletes do not recovery as well or as quickly compared to younger athletes, that's why I am using a slower L4 pace, and adding the L5 sessions.

I think I want to figure out how to include some periodization. Some reading I've been doing suggests that a continuous training plan will result in a plateau, and it's necessary to program heavier and lighter weeks to maintain progress.

Any thoughts?
Greg,

I just read this again properly.

I think you are on the right road here :D

Steve Roedde uses the peak performance days quite a bit -he has a best 100m of 16.0 for a lightweight 60 + :shock: and believes strongly in periodisation too.

When I used to do the WP back in 2009 for any length of time I just did 4/5 sessions a week and at 58 years old than felt the benefit of the days off, now I am 64 I think I need to listen to that sensible voice again :lol:

I am finding doing a full on L1 and L2 every week a bit much and have ratcheted back a bit in the last few weeks throwing in the 4' for Indoor Rowers Challenge instead of the L1 session last week and the CTC instead of the L2 the week before.

My L3 sessions are long-15k but very slow around 2:05-2:06 pace, I need to work in an L4 every week at least as there is plenty benefit to be gained.
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by gregsmith01748 »

Strider: Thanks for reading and giving some feedback. I've read of Steve's exploits, and I think in addition to managing his training well, he is also just an amazing athlete. You know he rowed across the atlantic? Tough as nails.

I've been doing ore reading on periodization and some of it conflicts with one of the basic principles of the WP. The idea that by doing roughly the same mix of sessions every week results in steady progress. I just watched a lecture by Steven Seiler that had some interesting conclusions about block periodization (another thing that Steve did in his run up to setting most of the age group World Records for the 60+ set). The study that Seiler shared showed that the group that did a consistent "hybrid" plan that mixed L1,L2 and L3 sessions with a whole lot of low intensity steady state did not make as much progress as groups that did solid blocks of L1, L2 or L3 type workouts week by week along with the same steady state meters.

Here are my thoughts on the lecture: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/ ... en-seiler/

It has me rethinking whether I will do a classic Wolverine mix of sessions or change it up on a week by week basis to focus more on one type of workout at a time.
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by Paul Victory »

strider77 wrote:Nice controlled L3 Paul :D , what is an L5 ?
L5 = rest day. :lol:

I feel kind of guilty taking a rest day each week during the Fall Team Challenge, but I figure it's probably acceptable if I'm covering around 100k over the other 6 days. Anyway, I was told in no uncertain terms that it's a key part of doing the WP and at least I know that's it's one instruction I can keep to the letter! :lol: :fswink:
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by strider77 »

gregsmith01748 wrote:- Strider: Thanks for reading and giving some feedback. I've read of Steve's exploits, and I think in addition to managing his training well, he is also just an amazing athlete. You know he rowed across the atlantic? Tough as nails.

I've been doing ore reading on periodization and some of it conflicts with one of the basic principles of the WP. The idea that by doing roughly the same mix of sessions every week results in steady progress. I just watched a lecture by Steven Seiler that had some interesting conclusions about block periodization (another thing that Steve did in his run up to setting most of the age group World Records for the 60+ set). The study that Seiler shared showed that the group that did a consistent "hybrid" plan that mixed L1,L2 and L3 sessions with a whole lot of low intensity steady state did not make as much progress as groups that did solid blocks of L1, L2 or L3 type workouts week by week along with the same steady state meters.

Here are my thoughts on the lecture: https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/ ... en-seiler/

It has me rethinking whether I will do a classic Wolverine mix of sessions or change it up on a week by week basis to focus more on one type of workout at a time.
Greg, great stuff !

Mike Caviston had great success with the WP following it traditionally with I think around 11 sessions a week with at least 1 x L1, 1 x L2, several L3 and several L4 sessions per week and every now and then a sub optimal 2k TT at around 2k PB-5 or 6 secs

Steve Roedde has an enormous base of endurance and even during his indoor rowing on season he still skis , uses the skierg, cycles, rows on the water and shovels snow !! (not all at the same time)

I don't think it matters much with him what he does its going to work !!

I will see what you come up with as its all about marginal gains but if we can get something a bit more than that it will make a big difference-Cheers Alan

Paul-thanks for explaining L5s I am having to take at least 2 of those every week at the moment-works a bit stressful :oops:
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strider77
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Re: L4s, etc...the Wolverine(sque) Plan

Post by strider77 »

L1 session last night in the gym-8 x 500 with 3.5' active rest

Last time I did these was 3 weeks ago and the average was 1:43.9 so target this time was an ambitious 1:43.0

I have compared the reps with the last session

3k wu-12:22.0

13:42.8-1:42.8-36
(13:51.3-1:43.9-37)
1:43.3-36 (1:46.8
1:43.5-36 (1:44.7
1:42.7-36( 1:44.4
1:42.9-36 (1:44.0
1:43.8-37 (1:43.0
1:43.5-36 (1:43.4
1:41.7-38 (1:43.3
1:41.3-40 (1:41.8 EHR 161

So an improvement of 1.1 secs/500 -chuffed with that and I seem to be handling the faster stroke rate OK :D
[b]67 5ft 10ins tall, 80k, proud to be a Free Spirit[/b]
[img]https://tinyurl.com/fsrsigs/fssig-285.png[/img]
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