The Pete Plan etc

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Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Spider, good solid training there especially in the heat. Ian another good session.

For me started out intending to do 5kr5', 4kr4', 3kr3', 2kr2' 1k. Not done since December when averaged 2:04.6. But decided that the quicker reps were not going to give me much training benefit so did 30' R15 instead.

Time Dist Rate Pace HRmax(%) HRmin(%) comment
21:15.0 5,000 21 02:07.5 164(88) 088(47) - controlled, mainly R21, happy with HR
16:48.9 4,000 22 02:06.1 172(92) 116(62) - Only exceeded 170HR at end, so controlled
12:23.8 3,000 23 02:04.0 177(95) 129(69) - Fairly controlled, happy with that
50:27.7 12000 21.8 2:06.2 177(95)
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Today 75' "new definition" UT2:

Time Dist Rate Pace HRmax(%) HRmin(%) comment
15:00.0 3,161 15 02:22.4 140(75) 81(43)
15:00.0 3,171 15 02:21.9 143(76) 136(73)
15:00.0 3,191 15 02:21.0 149(80) 142(76)
15:00.0 3,211 15 02:20.1 151(81) 144(77)
15:00.0 3,241 15 02:18.8 154(82) 148(79)
1:15:00 15964 15 02:20.9 154(82)

HR drift more gradual than this suggests. Average was 141. So can I call this UT2 or was it a low rate UT1?
Certainly enjoyed it more than <75% efforts and really pleased with 8.1-8.7 SPI.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by spidermac »

Hi Iain been following your UT2 thread on concept 2 forum with interest. I mostly agree with you on frequency & HR. I will probably be rowing less over the summer as climbing takes precedence & just don`t have the time/energy to put in lots of low HR metres. Eric murray says 80 % MHR is the sweet spot ( even says 85% is top limit of UT2!) & a few beats over is no big deal ( tho not 10 or more!). Also think depends on your goals - just get fit -UT2 probably enuff; race - need a structured plan; beat your own times - probably a mix. I have done a few longer sessions at lower HR cap ( around 138) but feel I am artificially holding back. Have also read a few folk saying as lots of factors affect HR they go by pace for UT2 not HR. Bottom line is I think if you don`t enjoy things you are unlikely to stick to them!! Another factor is that I do 4-5k in wup/cdown every wout at quite a low HR so this accounts for a substantial proportion of weekly metres. when I was doing my best times around 2012 I did very little UT2 type rowing & quite a low volume - not that I think this would work for me now. Good luck with the new strategy.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Thanks for your thoughts Spider. Eric is basically saying he thinks UT1 better than UT2, although with support for allowing some drift as well. Travis says that the prescription for cyclists is not appropriate for rowing due to the need to maintain the power element of power-endurance. I was surprised that my HR stayed so low yesterday allowing me to really push, I also think there is a split in it for me by maintaining the extra power I managed concentrating on getting my heels down earlier, felt more connected and will hopefully reduce the calf cramps I have been getting periodically. My friend who is a PT specialises in triathlon and cycling, it was on her comments that I have continued with the low power rows. But finding the time for a >2 hour session a week is often difficult and I am unconvinced at their effectiveness after 10 months. Yes I reached a good level of fitness, but the LSD sessions were less than half my rowing of 100km per week (70% by pace including W/up & C/D but see below re whether that counts) including quite a lot at a faster pace.

I also do a significant amount of warm up and cool down. On shorter rows this is usually more distance than the session. That said, on warm up I am trying to get my HR up so usually less than 5 min <75% HR at the start and a final few mins "recovery" at the end. I struggle to get my HR down after a tough session. To get HR <75% max I often have to slow to 2:40 pace. that is <40% of 2k power, so I fail to see that this is doing much to stimulate muscular adaption. I have found that starting C/D at a faster pace (HM-FM pace usually) and then reducing it every few mins helps to reduce PEMS. That is consistent to the research that has shown the most effective pace to clear lactate is a bit below anaerobic threshold, so I do get some training benefit from these, but not from a UT2 prescription.

As this is on PP thread, I guess the approach of making longer rows more UT1 is consistent with Pete's philosophy. Looking at his PBs, when he was formulating PP he was doubling the distance at around 3S/500m reduction in pace, so nothing wrong with his aerobic base! My goal is really just to stay fairly fit, although the competition with my own recent times and the other middle aged lightweights (principally in CTCs) helps to add interest. This is hotting up at my level. After Claudius, Felton and yourself, Jon has a clear lead. But my position as the best of the rest is under severe pressure from Chris Newberry as well as Plummy, Jan and Peter Tullett in some distances. I suspect Chris will now race away, but I hope to keep him honest for a little while! I appreciate that on half the training volume I cannot hope to reach the heights of last season, so not wasting sessions is the priority - to try and stay in sight of them! In addition, with my dog struggling to walk now (4 years ago I was walking her up to 3 hours a day with several sprints per walk) erging is my only exercise, so I really must make sure these 5 hours a week are not wasted.

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by spidermac »

HI iain a few more thoughts from Eric. He often does sessions which are mainly UT2 but ramps up the last 5mins or so - he reckons still has a good aerobic base effect. Also believes you have to "push" out the top end of your aerobic zone to improve it - wouts where pace/rate is gradually increased to quite a hi level. He is not an advocate of long rows, says he rarely does over an hour ( tho also says this should be bread & butter for longer rows!). Must confess I am a bit of an eric fan & find a lot of his stuff very good. Main point I think is for people who only have a limited time to row per week low HR rowing as a big percentage of that time is not very useful!.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

I am coming round to his way of thinking. "Top end aerobic" is difficult to quantify. Interestingly Travis was advocating working all 5 training zones. Is "Top end aerobic" UT1 (especally as that would be close to AT HR by end using Travis's approach), or AT? I find classic "AT workouts" such as PP long intervals push into TR for much of their duration and into Anaerobic for some of the ends, particularly in a fast last. I'm happy with that, as a more traditional "grey zone" definition suggests going over AT and ignoring most of UT1 & lower AT intensities. Travis is clear that only UT2 is not advisable (even on his definition) and I intend to do more 5k plan type AT workouts. Next up intending Fartlek 12 x 750m "rest" 1' and a Waterfall. But those, 20/6 HM and CTC will probably be all the intense workouts for the rest of this month although fitting in a 30' TT would be good.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by spidermac »

Hi Iain, check out this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK2_hyf2Rq4&t=3520s - don`t have to listen to all of the video but comments at start before he starts rowing & after session finnished worth listening to. In another video reply ing to someone who does 4 sessions a week he suggests: 2x aerobic sessions ( 20-24spm, remember he says 80%MHR); 1xmixed session like above+ 1xhi intensity session where spm hi. Also do harder sessions interspersed with the aerobic sessions.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Thanks for that, good to get different perspectives. I intend to periodise a bit and reduce the high end stuff for a few months as I have lost a lot of my base fitness. 10k at end of April was a full 1.7S/500m slower than the HM 4 months earlier. That really shocked me. So trying to focus a bit more. Will reintroduce the faster stuff when I have the endurance up.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Ian Bee »

Interesting reading those last few posts - there's a lot to be said for a mixed routine (I look at Rod Chinn as a shining example thereof). That said, with a combo of an unreliable HR monitor and/or skittish natural rhythm and/or impatience (probably more an issue with the final variable), I can't completely follow the advice to the letter.

Anyway, Fletcher wk8.2: 6min: 26 spm @2:01.7, then 9min: 20 spm @2:10.7, four rounds. Base 2k time @ 7:33.

Nice and steady: not quite so warm weather is definitely helping. Weeks 8 and 9 are on the easier side anyway in terms of session format, so I don't want to get all giddy with progress now and push the base 2k time too much further right now. I was dwelling this morning on the cube law, and the tenths increase in pace of late have reflected that.

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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

ian, how do you find holding the rating constant while increasing the pace? I tend to find when I have lost fitness I lose more in rating than power (strictly work per stroke of course), so when I get faster much of the improvement is in the rating I can maintain. As such, following a suggested pace based on my 2k would not reflect my pace at low rating. That said, R20 doesn't feel low for me. Most of my May Marathon was at R19!
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by spidermac »

I find mixing things up best way to keep motivation/interest Mr Bee. Whats the idea behind alternating the 20/26spm? Iain would still keep a few fast sessions in there even if base building.
Decided on latest EM session which looked reasonable on paper. :lol: :lol:
Countdown -7,6,5,4,3,2,1 mins 90sec rest start at 24spm & increase 2spm each segment.
Wup - 2k
Time dist spm HR split
07:00.0 1755 24 147 01:59.6
06:00.0 1538 26 155 01:57.0
05:00.0 1312 28 160 01:54.3
04:00.0 1071 30 163 01:52.0 - starting to work hard :shock:
03:00.0 823 32 164 01:49.3
02:00.0 564 34 163 01:46.3 - gasping for breath.
01:00.0 293 36 161 01:42.3
28:00.0 7354 28 159 01:54.2
CD - 2k
Well that was tuff. Started feeling pretty hard going at the 4min stage & just got harder!!! Object was to focus on a rythm which I think I managed, happy to meet all spm targets.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Ian Bee »

@Iain - at my modest pacing, I can push the pace at the same rate relatively easily. I don't afton post the pure UT1/2 Fletcher sessions, but they're the <18: easy marathon pace which is probably of most value to me in terms of building fitness (even if it doesn't feel that way at the time). But to the point - I'd agree that I've lost more over the last year in rating endurance than power per se.....

@spidermac - nothing more than slavishly following the Fletcher plan. I'm certain there is a logic, so I'll reread and post the plan if you're interested/curious.


As for today's session, it was meant to to Fletcher WK 8.3. But:

1) Ergzone crashed; then
2) ergdata crashed; and then
3) the pm5 crashed.

After that, I tended to feel the universe was sending me a message.....

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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Ian, thanks for the response. Personally I don't find marathon pace that easy, definitely UT1 not UT2. How long are the scheduled workouts? Sorry to hear of your tech nology woes, we all have days like that! Better luck next time!

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

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Hot again today - 25degrees!! so decided to have another go with the C-breeze.
60min wolverine today - 180/184/188/176/180/184
Wup - 1k
Time Dist spm HR SPlit
10:00.0 2331 18 137 02:08.7 (+8m)
10:00.0 2344 19 141 02:07.9 (+5m)
10:00.0 2359 19 137 02:07.1 (+4m)
10:00.0 2308 18 142 02:09.9 (+2m)
10:00.0 2323 19 146 02:09.1 (+0m)
10:00.0 2336 19 146 02:08.4 (+13m)
01:00:00 14000 18 141 02:08.5 (+32m)
CD - 1k
SO had to move drf handle up to retain 120Drf. HR considerably lower than last time (145HR) tho more strokes this time. Missed spm a few times tho distances a bit closer.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Spider, tough session to do on the hottest day of the year so far. Also, that 28' session looks horrendous. Started out on a 750 x 12 r1', but started near 2:023 pace rather than 2:05 I intended. After 3 knew that I would need to drop the pace so changed program. Instead, did 12 x 100m r1' @ 10MPS. Last time 1:45.3 average. This time tried doing this Fartlek. Really made a difference as even at very slow recovery pace, started each interval with little allactic energy. As a result the second split went from <1:50 to high 1:50's and taking half the interval to reach maximum pace. Also struggled to hit the correct rating getting behind the curve on several intervals in the first half and so slower pace that couldn't be made up at the higher rating of the second half. Ended with 1:46.5, happy enough with that. Also added a 13th interval (also without stopping) and did 18.7S (1:33.5 avg.) R54. Much slower rating than usual and close to best standalone.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

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Well done on salvaging a session Iain something I rarely manage!!! Edinburgh 25degrees today & really had to force myself onto the erg - decided any sort of session would be a bonus, so 30minR20 HR cap 138.
Wup - 1k
Time Dist spm HR split best
06:00.0 1436 20 132 02:05.3 (2.05.4)
06:00.0 1440 20 137 02:05.0 (2.05.0)
06:00.0 1422 20 137 02:06.5 (2.05.6) - Heat stroke kicking in!!
06:00.0 1409 20 138 02:07.7 (2.06.4)
06:00.0 1397 20 139 02:08.8 (2.07.0)
30:00.0 7103 20 136 02:06.7 (2.05.9)
CD - 1k
Comments - happy to do some sort of session, & C-breeze was a saviour. After matching first 2x6min segments had to slow down as was overheating & HR climbing.
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Spider, Well done at getting through it in that heat.

I attempted my first 30'R20 today (although without HR cap) as been getting more work per stroke recently. Set off too quickly then let 'phone call justify H/D, so 3 x 10' R20 with long rests.

Time Dist Rate Pace HRmax(%) HRmin(%) comment
10:00.0 2,419 20 02:04.0 172(92) 098(52)
10:00.0 2,427 20 02:03.6 175(91) 101(54)
10:00.0 2,440 20 02:03.0 176(94) 096(51)
30:00.0 7,286 20 02:03.5 176(94)
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by spidermac »

Nice one Iain - next time with no breaks!! :D
Just gets hotter here - 26 degrees. So why not do a hard interval session - u know it makes sense. :lol: PP- 5x1500.
Last time - 27.59.3/1.51.9/159HR/30spm
wup - 2k
Time dist spm HR split Last
05:37.6 1500 30 156 01:52.5 (1.52.4)
05:36.3 1500 30 162 01:52.1 (1.52.2)
05:36.0 1500 31 162 01:52.0 (1.51.8) - HD`s appearing!!! :evil:
05:35.6 1500 31 163 01:51.8 (1.51.6)
05:33.0 1500 33 165 01:51.0 (1.51.5) - managed a decent sprint this time.
27:58.5 7500 30 161 01:51.9 (1.51.9)
CD - 2k
Happy with that in the heat & with C-breeze on. The same split tho a massive 0.8sec faster overall. :lol: :lol: Not sure bit seems a bit harder with C-breeze on?
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Iain »

Well done Spider, going faster in this heat. Good increase in rating to more recent rows as well. I am really struggling to maintain a faster rating. Really not looking forward to solstice HM in a week. On the plus side my stroke is at its strongest for nearly a decade, but I don't think I am going to be able to maintain >8SPI for an HM. 2:21 for 105' was a real sweatfest yesterday AM losing 2kg. Phone decided to update so no HR data. I think I will have water ready for the HM just in case I start to weaken.

- Iain
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

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Good to have a stronger stroke Iain but not much use unless can hold it when u rate up. Always a balance between rate & power - "your ratio" as EM calls it. Long rows in this weather a real challenge!!!
30minR20 for me after yesterdays efforts. HR cap 138 - best - 2.05.9/7143m/20spm/136HR.
Wup - 1k
Time dist spm HR split prev best
06:00.0 1433 20 133 02:05.6 (2.05.4)
06:00.0 1440 20 137 02:05.0 (2.05.0)
06:00.0 1431 20 139 02:05.7 (2.05.6)
06:00.0 1424 20 138 02:06.4 (2.06.4)
06:00.0 1418 20 139 02:06.9 (2.07.0)
30:00.0 7145 20 137 02:05.9 (2.05.9)
CD - 1k
SO not sure how PM4 worked out the rounding but I`ll take it - and +2m improvement!!!
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by JonT »

I’ve been away for a week and then come back to some steady rows to get back into the swing.

Saturday was 2x15 r20 UT2
Sunday was 3x15 r20/22/20 UT2(ish)

Today, somewhat predictably....

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Heart rate is much higher than I would like, and gives me little confidence about a reasonable attempt at HM this weekend. It’s very hot here, but I’m not sure that explains it.

I was listening to the Katherine Grainger episodes of the Row Show. Awesome athlete.

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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by Kevinhorne44 »

That's a high rate Jon. But the heat this week will be a factor too.

I've been working on aerobic base for weeks now.

I had a target of sub 60 minutes for my nemesis 3 x 5k R20 with a 75%HR. Getting closer now Image I wouldn't dare place my bike-erg stuff in this thread though Image even with the etc tag.Image

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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by spidermac »

Some impressive mileage there guys! =D> Agree this hot weather sucks for erging. :evil:
No extra training today just erging so thought would try a hard 10k. Not been doing TT`s much & want to see where I am at. Only did one hard 10k last year - 1.58.8/25spm/161HR/39.36.5.
Wup - 2k
Time dist spm HR split Prev
07:56.5 2000 26 147 01:59.1 (2.00.0)
07:53.1 2000 27 154 01:58.2 (1.59.2)
07:51.5 2000 27 157 01:57.8 (1.58.6) - HD`s appearing. :shock:
07:48.2 2000 27 161 01:57.0 (1.58.5)
07:43.8 2000 28 164 01:55.9 (1.57.6)
39:13.1 10000 26 156 01:57.6 (1.58.8)
CD - 2k
Was secretly hoping for sub 39 but not to be. :( Probably need to rate a bit higher throughout 27/28spm. Still 23.4secs not to be sniffed at!!
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by JonT »

Well done spider. To dive in there without much TT work lately and to beat last year's so convincingly (in hot weather) is a great result. =D> =D>
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Re: The Pete Plan etc

Post by spidermac »

Cheers JT.
aye the heat didn`t make it easy & with not doing this regularly started out a bit too conservatively as was sure I could beat last years time but didn`t want to blow the doors off!!
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