Football thoughts

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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Interesting theory Graham. Seems a bit of a stretch though.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

I see Chris Foy had another stinker today.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

I do think it's time for a chnage in refereeing.

The decision to send off Kompany yesterday was little short of disgraceful. If that sort of challenge is to be punished by a red card then the leagues at Championship level and below are going to go out of business. That decision signals the end of tackling anywhere on the pitch and sets a dangerous precedent.

I'd like to see a referral system introduced such as that seen in rugby, cricket and tennis. A contentious decision can be challenged and subject to video evidence, instantly and with an official in the stand. However each team is limited to say 2 or 3 challenges a match.

Some decisions would not be able to be challenged until post match. These would include offside, corners, free kicks for foul play. Those which can be challenged would include red cards (not a first yellow - see below), penalties and perhaps "goals" that are scored but not allowed.

Yellow cards would be able to be challenged post match. I'd ask the referee to attend a meeting with each team a couple of days post match and explain why players were booked (or not). In the event that the referee wants to change his mind, he can and the card is withdrawn. This I think would allow players to understand why decisions are made and introduce some consistency.

Equally I would punish teams who accumulate more than a certain number of disciplinary points. If we had say 1 point for a yellow and 3 for a red, then once a team is past say 50 points (or whatever level is agreed), then each 5 additional points would cost them 1 league point. I guarantee that if yellow and red cards were subject to immediate team deductions, with the implications for prize money etc, we would see a reduction in offences as managers would have to instil the right attitude to the laws of the game.

I would also punish players who reach certain points totals with a minimum 2 match ban.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Wolfmiester »

Graham,
I love everything that you have suggested there, all very well though out, logical, and fair to all.
Of course I have a "but" though :-).
There is one major overwhelming factor for me when it comes to discussing refereeing, and that is the fact that they have to make an instant decision based on what they, and they only (the assistants input currently is minimal to none, perhaps that's were things could be improved), have seen at the time. This of course means that there will inevitably be mistakes from time to time. However I'm sure no-one, not even Alex Furgusson, would suggest that any ref did not make what he thought was the right decision at the time.
This is part of the fabrication of the game.
I'm not against change, and I would endourse anything that would bring the consistency that we all crave.
But blimey, it's obviously an extremely difficult thing to bring about.
Watching European football this year introduced me to the extra "goal area official". What an absolute farce that is. Apparently there are only certain things they can "advise" on. This does not include possible penalty decisions, ridiculous. Led to many a funny chant in the games I watchedI can tell you. But on a serious note it just led to even more inconsistency and the vast majority of the fans not having a clue as to what was going on. Crazy.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Unfortunately, as long as Septic Bladder is in charge of FIFA, anything that might introduce a degree of fairness (or God forbid, involve the use of current technology) is only going to be brought in by means of a gigantic uphill struggle. The sooner that blight on world sport is gone, the better.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

The problem is that Platini is no better and he is the heir apparent.

If we have another long period with one man in charge and no action to break down the vested interests and corrupt practices, then the only hope is for the FA to abandon FIFA.

That will never happen. The prospect of England being excluded from European and World cup internationals would cause havoc in the domestic game. English clubs could argue for instance that if they are not part of FIFA then they have no obligation to release players for international games. How many top class players would then join an English club?

If that problem could be solved, (and many English club managers would love that as they are reluctant to release players anyway and many mysteriously are "injured" for international duty but play for their club that weekend) then I suspect that England may drag some countries out of FIFA.

The constitution of FIFA has to change to permit only one term of office and for a weighted voting system whereby those FA's with the greatest weight of international players get the biggest say.

And don't get me started on the impending joke of a World Cup in 50 degree heat! #-o
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

Wolfie, I agree that refs have to make a split second decision.

I am a qualified ref and used to do local league games. Even at that level it was very difficult to see everything and very often decisions were made on the "balance of probability" rather than what was actually seen. It was also very difficult when some players had a bad attitude towards the ref (irrespective of who it was) and that inevitably creatyed biased decisions.

I can remember being with a group of refs at a 6 a side tournament and the older guys pointing out known "trouble makers" to us younger people who were advised to "take no nonsense" from them.

The problem with the Premier league is that the players and managers think that they are bigger than the game and that refs do not train with or visit clubs except pre season. We consequently have two groups who should be working together with mutual respect but who are otfen at daggers drawn, aided, abetted, encouraged and spurred on by a media that wants to "make" the story rather than report the facts.

The refs seem to think that they don't have to explain anything and never say that they were wrong. Even at my level, on one occasion a player appealed a red card and after some thought I considered that I was a bit hasty and advised the local FA that I would withdraw it. I came under a lot of pressure to stick with the original decision or risk appearing "weak". I didn't but I can imagine that this pressure is infinitely heavier at premier league level.

If refs want to stay in touch with the game and the players, they have to be more opena nd be prepared to admit that mistakes are made but where possible rectified.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by andy walls »

I also agree Referee's have a tough job.

I'm an avid football watcher and the decision in the Manchester derby was the correct one to the letter of the law however very harsh in my opinion.

I think that we could improve how football is refereed however fans such as myself would soon complain that the game doesnt flow and takes to long. I would like to see more assistance from the lines men/women, too often you see refs getting little assistance from their colleagues, why is this, they can often see as clearly, if not more so than the ref. It is very rare you here a so called football pundit 'slag off' a refereeing decision when consultation has taken place between officials. Im also a fan of the introduction of goal line technoligy but I guess thats a seperate discussion as we all have our views on that.

I also love rugby and am a glory hunting Tigers fan, I get there a few times a season however with the stoppages incurred for checking decisions etc an 80' game can quite often be 95+ minutes, would the average footy fan appreciate a 90' game going on for anothe 15' or so (Man U fans get this quite often so wouldnt mind too much!!).

I think we need to get back to basics, players need to respect the ref's for the jobs they do, learn from rugby, except the decision and only the captain talks to the ref unless the ref requires another player. Maybe miking the ref up for the live games would be a player incentive for improved behaviour!!??

One final thought on this would also help grass roots football, introduce a scheme of some description where footballers referee at lower levels to gain an insight of what its like to make these split second calls and maybe gain some respect for the men in the middle as a result, equally some of the very critical ex pro's that have failed so miserably in management could give it a go!!
Last edited by andy walls on Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

Interesting Andy.

In my opinion, ex players make poor refs. They too often make a decision on what they think has happened as a result of experience, rather than what has happened. It's also true that a pro player finishing his career at 30 will never make the top of the refereeing tree as he has started too late.

I took up refereeing at 29. I did this for 5 years and in that time went from local league Sunday morning football to district league 2. I also ran the line for a few cup games at higher level. To get from beginner to Premier league takes around 15 years normally and you need to start young. You are given no "credit" for having played at a certain level, indeed often the opposite.

In terms of having a key decision looked at again, I think the process would be the captain asking the ref within 10 seconds of a decision to review. The upstairs ref to have say 30 seconds and then a final decision.

The notion that this slows the game down is false in my view. Most games are constantly held up by free kicks and throw ins which often take 30 seconds or more. Having a maximum of say 4 to 6 further breaks is unlikely to be noticed and would make the fans more accepting of the decision.

Still, nobody is listening to us and as Paul says the idiot Blatter has no financial interest in changing anything and therefore won't do it.

I would love to see the top European clubs form their own league away from domestic competition. I would see these clubs playing each other perhaps once only a season. A play off system at the end of the season to determine the top club. The top domestic league would be cut to perhaps half the present number with the top 2/3/4 going into the following season's European league.

I would also like this to be done in a way that tells FIFA/UEFA to change and develop or lose control. The fans of football have forever lost their influence and voice. The power is with the top clubs and they need to make their business profitable. They should grab the chance and tell the administrators to shape up or ship out
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Damn, damn, damn, f***. :evil:

(those of you who know that I'm a Tottenham fan will understand the above).
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Stan »

:D :D :D :D

(those of you who know that I'm a Man City fan will understand the above).
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Stan wrote::D :D :D :D

(those of you who know that I'm a Man City fan will understand the above).
C'mon Stan, even you will have to admit that City didn't deserve to win. And you can hardly defend that thug Ballotelli.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Stan »

Probably not Paul, though lapses in concentration certainly let you guys back into the game. A draw would have been a fair result and one I would have taken before the game started as I had a bad feeling about it - City have an awful record against Spurs. As for Balotelli, I wish he wouldnt let himself down like that, he is a good striker and doesnt need to do that - I hope Scott Parker is ok. Still grateful for the 3 points to stay ahead of Utd
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

To be honest, I don't think Spurs have a realistic chance of winning the Premiership (although a win today might have changed that). I'd just love to see them stay in the top 3 and it wouldn't upset me too much if Arsenal or Liverpool finished 4th ahead of Chelsea, as that would hopefully put an end to Chelsea's chances of poaching Modric.

I think you may be without Ballotelli for a while if they decide to take a case against him based on the video evidence. I agree that he's a talented striker, but he lets himself down big time with that kind of behaviour.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

Have seen the Balotelli incident and he should be getting a 4 match ban any day if there's any justice.

Harry is in Court for tax evasion - not avoidance. The difference was once explained to me by a tax barrister as the thickness of a prison wall. We'll have to wait for the facts but I predict that because he is seen as the great hope for the England manager and we could not have a convicted criminal in charge, he will get off scot free.

Given that I work in tax and track tax cases as part of that job, I can tell you that many, many people who make genuine mistakes over a vastly complicated system get fined and worse but because of the above and the fact that he can afford a good barrister, he will get off.

Mandric perhaps not as English juries still love to assume that "foreigners" are guilty. Be interesting that one.

Finally, about to go and see my boys play Leicester. We've been top of the league for 4 months now but the BBC in particular love to say at the wekeend that west Ham are top of the league and imply that if we do get back again (any win will do) we will be fortunate. Definite anti Saints agenda in the media.

We have signed on laon a Spurs midfield player who is a Spanish U21 international so hopefully will have something about him.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

A few musings on yellow and red cards and what some call simulation or gamemanship or allowing the ref to do his job and what I call CHEATING.

I confess to being stirred by a sense of grievance here. My team (Saints) played Birmingham yesterday. The Bluenoses are the form team in the division and getting a point is a good result. however the game was marred by a sending off.

My view (and I know that we have some Brum fans here) is that the first booking Fox picked up was debatable. He did not jump into the tackle but was strong. The winger jumped into the air like a shot rabbit and rolled around in the mud and snow as though his leg was falling off. The ref reacted to the winger's reaction in my view.

The second yellow was farcical. Two players running for a ball. Each using their arms to try and muscle their way past the other. The winger (same one) throwing himself on the ground. second yellow and off he goes.

In my opinion, the winger cheated my team, our fans, his fans and the ref. If that was a yellow card then we may as well ban all physical contact in football and play tiddlywinks instead.

The refs seem to be moving to the lowest common denominator. They have decided that making a distinction between a malicious, cynical or dangerous tackle and one where players are basically play acting and cheating, is too difficult and therefore they penalise them all. Ridiculous.

The refs are also bottling it big time on penalties. All of us who follow football know that the next hardest thing to a sub 6;20 2k is getting a penalty at Old Trafford, Emirates, Stamford bridge, Ethihad. That seesm to work the opposite way for teams in the Championship. This week, we played cardiff and had two stonewall penalties denied. (Check the video). We then hasd one given that was debatable. I think the ref was trying to even things up.

The Premiership is full of players who fall over at every opportunity. The Stioke guy who got sent off when he never actually touched the Sunderland player yesterday. Great example of a greater cancer in the game then a two footed tackle and somethign much more important (and fifficult) for refs to focus on.

Come on refs - get a grip and concentrate in cheating rather than getting your yelloe card quota

here endeth the rant
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Nice rant Graham. Have to say, I agree with you 100%.

What we need is for the FA (and this will probably need to start at FIFA level - good luck with that as long as that blight on creation, Septic Bladder is in charge) to allow post game video evidence to be used to correct injustices and punish the perpetrators. If a player dives or simulates injury (holding his face in pretend agony when the other player didn't get within 3 feet of his face) and gets another player sent off, then the other player's ban should be rescinded and the diver should get double the ban. Unfortunately, I don't think that's likely to happen in your lifetime or mine. Such is life :roll: :evil:

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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Wolfmiester »

As a Blues fan Graham, I agree almost 100%.
I didn't see the match (in the rugby club watching the Murryfield game), but the reports, and even our manager, agree.
Doesn't/should not, matter what team you support, cheating is is simply wrong.
The Man C penalty that Adam Johnston won yesterday is another example.
I will repeat what I've said before though, the refs are making that split decision on what they see. Perhaps they should be erring on the side of caution.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Suarez. What a plonker!
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

Suarez, Dalgliesh and Liverpool FC should all be punished.

This is corporate failure by the club to manage its employees. If I did what he has done (not alleged but proven), I would be fired. If my line manager was seen defending the indefensible, he would be the next P45.

Equally, if I went home for 3 months in a hissy fit I would be fired. Why is Tevez not fired, his salary stopped and his ability to play for anybody else withdrawn.

On a happier note, my boys play West Ham tonight in a first v second game.

(I loathe and detest the way the tabloid sports writers use words like "battle" and "clash" and "bitterly contested". It's a game, a recreation for all but the best of the best. Nobody will die if their team loses a match. No empires will fall. Armagedodn will not bring brimstone and fire down upon us).

If we win, we go top by a point (West Ham have a game in hand). If we lose we stay second but 4 points behind. Going to be nip and tuck all the way to the end of the season now with 17 games in 11 weeks.

bring it on. :fsbgrin:
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Wolfmiester »

.... and a draw for 4 of the top 6 brings it even closer!
Can you defend Billy Sharp?
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by SlowSi »

Graham, Paul,

The sad fact is controversy sells TV and newspaper subscriptions, the role the media has played in reporting this sorry affair has been nothing short of a disgrace. For a balanced reflection on the actual content of the FA’s “independent” report and the subsequent misinformation reported please have a look at the following links :-

http://newsframes.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... hurnalism/
https://newsframes.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... m-framing/

Perhaps when you have read these articles you will see why Luis Suarez, Liverpool Football Club and Liverpool Supporters have taken the stance they have.

You may choose to ignore, that’s your choice, but things aren’t always as they seem…..

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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Hi Simon

My comment was not about the original incident/punishment, but about his sheer stupidity in refusing to shake hands with Evra. However unfairly he feels he was treated by the media and the FA, he must have known that refusing to shake hands was going to cause major ructions and his behaviour on Saturday was therefore extremely foolish and childish (in my opinion).

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Re: Football thoughts

Post by webberg »

It's also the responsibility of the media to report the story and not to make it.

There was a piece in the Telegraph earlier this week which was headlined "Ferguson says player power has taken over".

The reported remarks of SAF (who I would put in Room 101) did not say that at all!

He did observe that Liverpool had done the right thing by apologising for the eejit Suarez and that Man City had taken a decent stand on Tevez (which looks like crumbling now that they need to win some games), mentioned Rooney and his issues last year. Not once did he say anything like the headline.

The Leveson enquiry should make a law that any journalist who reports inaccurately or draws inferences that are not there, should be reduced to reporting the weather for a few weeks to learn the importance of accuracy.

Anyway, we got a point at West Ham. Noble dived for the penalty. The assault on Sharp looked like handbags to me. There was a picture in the Times which showed Taylor's hands being high, but Sharp made the most of it. I think Taylor will get off on an appeal. There was no mention in the press or on the highlights of the cast iron penalty we should have had but saints fans are used to a biased media. (For the first 5 years I supported them I thought that "struggling Southampton" was the name of the team.
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Re: Football thoughts

Post by Paul Victory »

Feeling sick as a parrot right now. :evil:
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