Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

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Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by zootMutant »

IMO, this is ridiculous. As near as I can tell, Mr. Armstrong never failed a single drug test. If the tests can't detect the drugs, why are they being used? If they can, then why was he banned? The decision was based entirely on the "eyewitness" testimony of those people who did not win the Tour de France?

Sounds a lot like sour grapes to me.

"If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and - once and for all - put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance," Armstrong added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19369375
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Scoop »

Zoot, I agree with you. It seems very strange that America would so badly want to damage one of its greatest national heroes.

It seems that this is now mostly based on hearsay. The only thing that should count is a drugs test and he passed hundred of those.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Bram66mcs »

I also agree surely if anyone was to strip him it should be the tour. This all seems very strange.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by paulgould »

Zoot - I don't agree with you on Armstrong - he is not denying having taken PED's - he is merely saying that he has stayed within WADA and UCI guidelines - I may be wrong but Armstrong does not seem the type of person to quit a fight if he is in the right and from a physiological point of view, I find it very hard to believe that someone, despite going through the horrors of cancer that he has been through, can change their body structure so radically - pre-cancer he was a cycling strongman, couldn't climb and was suited to the one-day classics, not multi-stage tours - then he becomes this mountain-goat, spinning up steep mountain passes at an impossibly high cadence :?: :?: .

Personally, I think he is pulling out of the fight firstly to avoid all the damaging details coming out, and secondly because he does not believe that USADA has the jurisdiction to strip him of his TDF titles.
He is also a lot brighter than Landis - who blew all his money on his defence against the charges levelled against him, knowing full well he was doped up to the eyeballs.

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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Scoop »

Paul. I don't really understand this. Why didn't the drugs tests show that he was doped? Is there any point in having these tests if they don't work? And how did he manage to win 7 (yes SEVEN) TDF titles without anyone noticing?

Also (and once again I ask as a novice who knows very little about cycling) would it be true to say that if LA was doped it is also highly likely that a fair few other competitors were as well? If you strip him of his titles then how can you be sure you will then give them to a 'clean' competitor (since the drugs tests obviously don't work)?

Not trying to be provocative but to the average person this seems like a strange conversation to be having 7 years after the event.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by paulgould »

Scoop wrote:Paul. I don't really understand this. Why didn't the drugs tests show that he was doped? Is there any point in having these tests if they don't work? And how did he manage to win 7 (yes SEVEN) TDF titles without anyone noticing?

Also (and once again I ask as a novice who knows very little about cycling) would it be true to say that if LA was doped it is also highly likely that a fair few other competitors were as well? If you strip him of his titles then how can you be sure you will then give them to a 'clean' competitor (since the drugs tests obviously don't work)?

Not trying to be provocative but to the average person this seems like a strange conversation to be having 7 years after the event.
It is a tricky one, I agree.
One of the problems with re-awarding the 7 titles is that both Ullrich and Basso, both multiple runners-up, have served drug bans.
I'm not saying that Armstrong was the only one doping, in fact there were probably very few who were riding clean.
The list of banned substances(including masking agents) is growing longer as the testing gets more sophisticated and I believe that the wealthier teams can spend a fair amount of money paying doctors and scientists to keep them ahead of the game.
Of course I have no definite proof either way, just my opinion - PED's in sport was more widespread than most people would imagine - even very average amateur club riders at my cycling club back in SA were on the juice, and schoolboy rugby is riddled with it.

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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Thomas W-P »

Am I right that there was no test for EPO until long after Armstrong retired?

Just wondering...
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by paulgould »

Thomas W-P wrote:Am I right that there was no test for EPO until long after Armstrong retired?

Just wondering...
If I remember correctly the haematocrit levels(basically the percentage of oxygen carrying red blood cells) were tested and a reading of over 50 or 51 was considered "risky" and could lead to blood clots, and riders were banned for 2 weeks on "health grounds" - the general feeling though, .was that elevated haematocrit levels were as a result of EPO usage and/or blood doping.

I think the biggest loophole that the riders were able to exploit was the absence of a testing protocol for the masking agents enabling them to take PED's without detection.

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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by slwiser »

Scoop wrote:Zoot, I agree with you. It seems very strange that America would so badly want to damage one of its greatest national heroes.
One has to understand that the USA is in the process of self-destruction; anything considered excellence is being punished today by the powers that be. The culture of dependency is what is pushing things here.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by zootMutant »

Paul, thank you so much for taking the time to explain this to me - you've generated a kernel of doubt which has dulled the edge of bitterness.

I haven't followed cycling since the last time I raced against Greg LeMond (well... actually I was in the Juniors' race immediately preceding the Seniors' race, but I waved as he lined up for the start and I'm pretty sure he winked back, which, as far as I'm concerned is pretty much the same as racing against him :P ).

So, if you tell me...
paulgould wrote:I find it very hard to believe that someone, despite going through the horrors of cancer that he has been through, can change their body structure so radically - pre-cancer he was a cycling strongman, couldn't climb and was suited to the one-day classics, not multi-stage tours - then he becomes this mountain-goat, spinning up steep mountain passes at an impossibly high cadence :?: :?: .
...then I believe you.

I really don't understand anything about drugs (I cringe at the thought of taking aspirin). Am I right in assuming that 'PED' means 'performance enhancing drugs'? And that these are banned? What about performance enhancing vitamins and minerals (vitamin E, B), performance enhancing nutrients (creatine, ribose), performance enhancing strategies (protein supplements, carbohydrate loading), performance enhancing training (intervals, strength training), performance enhancing coaches, performance enhancing equipment (aerodynamically designed helmets, handlebars and wheels)?

It seems to me this is a slippery slope and that fairness involves rigidly defined concepts with all "banned" substances, training, equipment and methods specifically identified (for all I know, this may be the case :?: ). But this is just a first step. It just doesn't make sense to "ban" something unless there is some way to objectively determine if the ban has been violated. Can you imagine the resulting chaos if the standard were to become: "Any athlete will be stripped of his titles if more than 10 people are willing to testify against him"? :shock:

It seems that fairness and objectivity require:

1. First you identify what should be banned.
2. Then you develop the means by which a ban violation is determined.
3. Then you implement controls.
4. Then you enforce the rules.

Repeat as needed.

And if the controls are not sufficient, (if you discover loopholes), you develop new controls, you don't retroactively substitute subjective 'evidence' in lieu of the objective.

==============================

Paul, it seems I've gone off on a bit of a rant. Please understand that none of this is directed at you. I appreciate your comments and you wisdom. And the more I read about this, the more I think you may be right (that there are very few world-class professional cyclists who are completely drug-free).

I guess I just don't trust "eyewitness testimony". Especially when applied years after the fact. :-k

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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by paulgould »

Thanks for the reply Zoot, and of course I am not going to take offence to someone having a view which differs from mine :) :) .

You have raised some very interesting points as regards drawing the line on what is permissible as a supplement and what is an illicit performance-enhancing drug - the controls and the types of substances which qualify as PED's(performance enhancing drugs) tend to differ from sport to sport too.
For example, a weightlifter will gain no benefit from taking EPO just the same as a cyclist or marathon runner will gain no benefit from an anabolic steroid.
What further confuses the issue is classifying it according to whether it is produced naturally by the human body or is purely synthetic - creatine is produced naturally and is allowed as a supplement in many sports - rugby in particular springs to mind, yet testosterone is also produced naturally, but banned in most sporting codes as a supplement.

I think that with the rewards for success being so high there are always going to be athletes using PED's to gain that competitive edge - imo the best that we can hope for is that the sanctions for convicted drug cheats are severe enough to act as a strong enough deterrent(eg a lifetime ban).

By the way, I'm no expert on all of this, just being a sports fanatic I find it all very interesting.

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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by billwright »

The irony here is that Armstrong's titles will pass by default to a proven taker of banned substances.

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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by webberg »

Dipping a wary toe in the water here, I'm personally very disappointed that LA is droppign the challenge. Whilst I understand his frustration and bitterness at what is clearly a very political campaign being waged against home because the guy in charge of the USADA seems to hold a personal grudge, the only way to make bullies see sense is to take them on.

The drugs in sport issue is always going to be a difficult one. Cycling has a bad reputation. Let's not forget though how many world and olympic records are still held by east German athletes who were clearly fuelled by drugs and even some very well known US and western european athletes who have had some very suspicious results and sometimes have served bans and come back.

The whole thing is a mess and having two or three drugs agencies all claiming precedence is not helping.

The authorities should be neutral. If the USADA has an issue with a US athlete they should be obliged to hand over their information and data to a neutral arbitrator for review. Only if there is a case to answer should they eb allowed to continue. Otherwise we end up with the sort of personal vendetta seen here.

I'm not saying LA is innocent or guilty (although I have been an admirer for a long time) but his competitors to whom the title may go (not a decision for USADA) are probably equally guilty.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Wendy »

I have had a couple of goes with cancer, chemo and all that. In my 30's and 40's I was very keen on karate and trained several times a week (often six days a week) and did the gym to stay as fit as possible. It is my firm belief that now in my mid 50's and after all that bother in my early 50's I am as fit as ever I was. I think I have as much stamina now as then. The one thing I don't think I am is as fast. I remember having very very fast hands and legs. These days I don't think I actually have a fast twitch muscle in my entire body.

So I can see how LA would be as strong and fit as he was prior to illness, and I guess the drop off in speed for me could be a by-product of my age. I am past menopause which makes a big difference to women but men don't go through that level or type of total physical change. If there is a type of training which would have honed his speed then I could see how he could achieve all he did. I would be very reluctant indeed to condemn him without clear evidence but there is just a nagging doubt and I too wish he had decided to fight this although I understand his chances of success would be minimal at best, and it would vost an absolute fortune.

He has been an absolute inspiration to me and will remain so whether or not he did enhance his performance because whether he did or didn't, just being able to reach that level of competition is incredible after all he went through. And I think he'd have been at that level come what may although I concede that if he did drug/whatever, he might not have won had he been clean.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by chipmunkcheeks »

From what I can make out, he hasn't been stripped of his titles; he has given up fighting the American authorities. The decision to strip his titles remains with the UCI, who are still waiting for reports and conclusive proof.

Armstrong like Wendy says has been to hell and back with Cancer which is an evil disease, and he deserves the medals he has won, even if he had taken performance enhancing narcotics.

I am not 100% sure what I believe as far as doping is concerned, I think it is unlikely.
It should be decided by the UCI whether or not to disqualify him, take his medals and ban him from future races, should they feel it is fitting. I think there seems to be an element of 'sour grapes' from the other cyclists who claimed to have 'witnessed' him taking the drugs.

Nobody has conclusive proof, although they are saying it is based on a couple of blood samples in 2009 and 2010 as well as the claims he was seen taking the drugs. In my mind, isn’t it possible that these blood samples could have contained some medication he was taking for his illness, in order to keep him well?

There is a very good write up about Armstrong on Wiki and all the controversy he has faced throughout his cycling career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_arms ... _of_doping.

In my mind the man truly is an inspiration and the medals and titles are his, whatever the outcome.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Huw Thomas »

he is an inspiration in his determination - but IF he took performance enhancing drugs he's still a cheat and hence lousy role model.

I hope he's clean, but ALL those on a par with him have been shown to use drugs
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Paul Victory »

Huw Thomas wrote:he is an inspiration in his determination - but IF he took performance enhancing drugs he's still a cheat and hence lousy role model.

I hope he's clean, but ALL those on a par with him have been shown to use drugs
I take your point Huw (about him being a cheat), but is it really cheating if everyone else is doing it? Stands back and waits to be jumped all over.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by zootMutant »

Paul Victory wrote:
Huw Thomas wrote:he is an inspiration in his determination - but IF he took performance enhancing drugs he's still a cheat and hence lousy role model.

I hope he's clean, but ALL those on a par with him have been shown to use drugs
I take your point Huw (about him being a cheat), but is it really cheating if everyone else is doing it? Stands back and waits to be jumped all over.
Stand back, Paul! :lol:

I'd have to agree with Huw. IF he took PED... (oh, wait, I think I see what you mean, Paul. 'Cheating' implies taking an unfair advantage, and if everyone is doing it, then how can it be unfair? Perhaps a better word would dishonest?) IF he took PED, then he was dishonest and therefore a lousy role model. Rules are rules. Everyone must play by the rules or else the whole sport collapses. JMO. :fswink:
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by webberg »

My humble opinion is as follows.

Sport, like life, has to have rules. Otherwise we would see those with the resources, imagination, determination, ruthlessness, etc develop both physical and mechanical advantages that others may not have.

Some changes are inevitable. In tennis, the move away from wooden rackets to metal. In football, the ball changes almost every season (perhaps more an exercise in cynical marketing?). In swimming, we saw the rise of all body suits that were slippery. Some of these are good for the game and some not so. Those who enjoy those particular sports and those who run them have a duty to ensure that new innovations add to the game rather than make it unbalanced.

Making changes to the human body to make it more suited for a particular sport are acheived through training and honing technique. That I consider is no more cheating than simply having the determination to make the most of a talent. No different to a gifted muscian practiciing for many hours.

The question is whether certain physical changes to the human body in ways that could not be acheived via training or practice is within the letter and the spirit of the sport.

My understanding of what drugs and EPO and blood charging do is limited but I think the former items boost training performance and the latter, event performance. I would consider both types to be "unfair" and to convey an advantage that is not intended and which is consequently outside the rules, morally, ethically and actually.

Where things get hazy is in blood doping where arguably having blood removed and then re-infused - without any chemicals being added - is not "adding" anything to the body. I accept that it allows more oxygen transportation, less lactic etc, but is it as bad as taking a steroid or being high on testosterone?

On balance I think it is.
The sports governing body however knew that this was going on and took no steps to stop it. Are we to beleivehterefore that the UCI (in this case) has conspired with a leading rider to boost the image of the sport? Would it be outrageous to even consider this?

A year ago, I would have said "yes". Today I'm not so sure.

I'm personally disappointed that LA is not fighting on. He has allowed the nay sayers to have the field and in the process has diminished my opinion of him and probably others too. The problem now is that whether he did or not, and whetehr he was simply trying to level the playing field because others were doing this, is irrelevant. All dopers are outside the rules of their sport and have cheated. All of them deserve our approbation rather than our praise. All of them cheapen themselves and their sport and sport in general and provide inappropriate role models for the new generations.

In my perfect world, any proven drug taker would be banned for life, instantly upon proof.

All those who put in suspect performances should be called upon to explain them and be placed under notice of review until all are happy.

This however leaves open deep problems with the motivation behind why people dope, being personal, political, commercial and driven by ego. That's a different rant.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by zootMutant »

Thanks, to everyone, for all the thoughtful comments in this thread! :fsbgrin:
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Wolfmiester »

zootMutant wrote:Thanks, to everyone, for all the thoughtful comments in this thread! :fsbgrin:
Indeed.
I'd love to be sat in a pub discussing this one with you all.
I'm sure the name "Gatland" would figure quite strongly too!
I'm with Graham (is it just a British fair play thing?), all proven cheats should be banned for life.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by Paul Victory »

Wolfmiester wrote:I'm with Graham (is it just a British fair play thing?), all proven cheats should be banned for life.
Overall I'd be inclined to agree. I'm still embarrassed by the whole Michelle Smith DeBruin debacle (although why I should take it upon myself to feel embarrassed on behalf of a compatriot is beyond my ken :roll: :? ) and I hate the idea that someone who cheated can be given a second chance. (Reminds me of the old joke about the man found guilty of the attempted murder of his mother in law and the judge let him off with probation on the grounds that he deserved a second chance.)

But I had huge respect for Lance Armstrong and what he achieved and I do feel that he has been the victim of a witch hunt (well, singled out for special treatment at the very least) and I'm just gutted by the whole thing to be honest. And I accept that the fact that everyone else is cheating is not necessarily a valid excuse, but I also feel that it's not always black and white.

I also feel that in the overall scheme of things, bringing Armstrong down does not necessarily achieve an overall positive result for the good guys and add to 'the greater good'.

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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by webberg »

To extend Paul's point a little, there are I think two issues that stike me as unfair.

Firstly, as Paul Gould pointed out, tests for blood doping were not very sophisticated in the period LA won his Tours and this may be one reason why the UCI was not able to list it as a prohibited action? If that is the case then I suspect that even if LA was practising this method of doping, many others were doing so. This is therefore a failure of authority to make it clear that either the practice was illegal (until proven otherwise), or that tests would be stored and tested when better detection was possible and riders could face retrospective elimination. The UCI did none of these things.

Secondly, judging people by the standards of today for what they did years ago is unfair. To draw a ridiculous comparison, if civilised society agrees that slavery is immoral, repugnant and wrong, then why are families which are rich today because they had slaves working their plantations etc, allowed to keep their wealth? Why are they not all pulled before a Court and stripped of the wealth they have accumulated via a practice now very much illegal?

As additional material whilst I think that many British athletes are far from above suspicion (look at Chambers who admits his errors and Christie who has still to accept his) the US has its share of performances from athletes in major games which lead to questions being asked. Why are these people not also being investigated? I can't but feel that there is a high level of personal spite involved in this situation. Why are the records still held by East German athletes not striken from the books where they have all the hallmarks of being drug assisted?

Ultimately the purpose of the drugs agencies is to establish a FAIR competition. In my view they have failed in this primary objective as they have proven themselves to be pawns of the various political and commercial factions rather than show strength of character to to the "right thing" regardless of influence.


They are unfit for purpose and need root and branch reform rather than try to protect their weakness by seeking high profile athletes to persecute.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by JonathanA »

Anyone volunteering to read and precis the 1000 page missive from Usada?

:-k

Thought not.
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Re: Armstrong 'stripped' of Tour de France Titles and Banned

Post by paulgould »

JonathanA wrote:Anyone volunteering to read and precis the 1000 page missive from Usada?

:-k

Thought not.
I don't need Usada to confirm my belief - I've always thought he is a drugs cheat and no amount of bluster from his lawyer is going to change my opinion.

Paul G
56, 1.74m , Sep '20 - 114 kg , currently - 98 kg
Image
200m - 30.8
300m - 47.7
30r20 - 7754m
12 hr - 139300m
100 mile - 14:10.12
200km - 18:28.30
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