England rugby gets a reality check

Tired of talking about rowing and want to talk about the real world? Enter a forum where rowing is a rude word...

Moderator: The forum police - (nee naw)

Post Reply
paulgould
Super Dedicated and Truly Free Spirit
Posts: 2839
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:40 am
I row on...: Model D with PM3
Location: Ryde, IOW

England rugby gets a reality check

Post by paulgould »

England , after great performances against NZ and Aus over the last few weeks, came up against the Boks playing their first half decent game of the tour, and got smashed :) .

I was very pleasantly surprised with the forward dominance we showed as I was expecting Sheridan to be quite a handful.
We dominated the lineouts, and Bakkies, now that he has cut out the dirty stuff, is a massive player.
I think that Courtney Lawes has loads of potential, but at no8, not lock.
I was really pleased that Spies was back in place of Kankowski, who is not international standard, that Mvovo was given an opportunity to show what he can do, and Kirschner had his best game in a Bok jersey.
IMO, one of England's big mistakes was selecting Tindall - he's too ponderous, and Easter, for the same reason.
Fortunately for us, our idiot of a coach eventually got Willem Alberts onto the park in place of Stegmann, who is a poor man's Brussow(out injured for the season) and a major liability.

The only downside of this result, in mine and no doubt many other Saffer's view, is that we will be stuck with PDV, Muir and Gold as the coaching staff for next year's World Cup :( :( .

Paul G
56, 1.74m , Sep '20 - 114 kg , currently - 98 kg
Image
200m - 30.8
300m - 47.7
30r20 - 7754m
12 hr - 139300m
100 mile - 14:10.12
200km - 18:28.30
User avatar
Doc RowSlo
Super Dedicated and Truly Free Spirit
Posts: 2573
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:43 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM5
Location: Manchester UK

Re: England rugby gets a reality check

Post by Doc RowSlo »

paulgould wrote:England , after great performances against NZ and Aus over the last few weeks, came up against the Boks playing their first half decent game of the tour, and got smashed :) .

I was very pleasantly surprised with the forward dominance we showed as I was expecting Sheridan to be quite a handful.
We dominated the lineouts, and Bakkies, now that he has cut out the dirty stuff, is a massive player.
I think that Courtney Lawes has loads of potential, but at no8, not lock.
I was really pleased that Spies was back in place of Kankowski, who is not international standard, that Mvovo was given an opportunity to show what he can do, and Kirschner had his best game in a Bok jersey.
IMO, one of England's big mistakes was selecting Tindall - he's too ponderous, and Easter, for the same reason.
Fortunately for us, our idiot of a coach eventually got Willem Alberts onto the park in place of Stegmann, who is a poor man's Brussow(out injured for the season) and a major liability.

The only downside of this result, in mine and no doubt many other Saffer's view, is that we will be stuck with PDV, Muir and Gold as the coaching staff for next year's World Cup :( :( .

Paul G
I missed the game but I'm sure that England deserved their beating.
Not sure about some of your comments though.
Sheridan has great potential but struggles against shorter props and has been injured for a long time. Irritatingly as a Sharks fan (Sale, not Nataal), he was at his best after returning from the Lions' tour and just before his shoulder dislocation.
Bakkies is pure quality. Bakkies and VM in the second row are the best that there's ever been IMO.
I see what you mean about Courtney Lawes. Don't think he's a No8 either. His very talented but probably just not big enough.
Spies is fantastic but that is a very, very harsh comment on Kankowlski who is also brilliant. Spies is a bit of a freak IMO (in a great way)
Tindall and Easter......can't really grumble about the comments, although both continue to have great games and great moments within games.

Personally, I think that that England team is pretty much the core of thebest that we have to offer.

Finally, the RSA coaching staff are utter shite. No argument there. RWC 2011 will b interesting. Clearly the AB's are far better than anyone else at the moment.
Image
paulgould
Super Dedicated and Truly Free Spirit
Posts: 2839
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:40 am
I row on...: Model D with PM3
Location: Ryde, IOW

Re: England rugby gets a reality check

Post by paulgould »

Doc RowSlo wrote:
paulgould wrote:England , after great performances against NZ and Aus over the last few weeks, came up against the Boks playing their first half decent game of the tour, and got smashed :) .

I was very pleasantly surprised with the forward dominance we showed as I was expecting Sheridan to be quite a handful.
We dominated the lineouts, and Bakkies, now that he has cut out the dirty stuff, is a massive player.
I think that Courtney Lawes has loads of potential, but at no8, not lock.
I was really pleased that Spies was back in place of Kankowski, who is not international standard, that Mvovo was given an opportunity to show what he can do, and Kirschner had his best game in a Bok jersey.
IMO, one of England's big mistakes was selecting Tindall - he's too ponderous, and Easter, for the same reason.
Fortunately for us, our idiot of a coach eventually got Willem Alberts onto the park in place of Stegmann, who is a poor man's Brussow(out injured for the season) and a major liability.

The only downside of this result, in mine and no doubt many other Saffer's view, is that we will be stuck with PDV, Muir and Gold as the coaching staff for next year's World Cup :( :( .

Paul G
I missed the game but I'm sure that England deserved their beating.
Not sure about some of your comments though.
Sheridan has great potential but struggles against shorter props and has been injured for a long time. Irritatingly as a Sharks fan (Sale, not Nataal), he was at his best after returning from the Lions' tour and just before his shoulder dislocation.
Bakkies is pure quality. Bakkies and VM in the second row are the best that there's ever been IMO.
I see what you mean about Courtney Lawes. Don't think he's a No8 either. His very talented but probably just not big enough.
Spies is fantastic but that is a very, very harsh comment on Kankowlski who is also brilliant. Spies is a bit of a freak IMO (in a great way)
Tindall and Easter......can't really grumble about the comments, although both continue to have great games and great moments within games.

Personally, I think that that England team is pretty much the core of thebest that we have to offer.

Finally, the RSA coaching staff are utter shite. No argument there. RWC 2011 will b interesting. Clearly the AB's are far better than anyone else at the moment.
Lee, have to agree with you about England putting out their best available - in all honesty I can't think of any GP players out there who are significantly better than Easter or Tindall but I do rate Tait.
It is a pity for England that Simon Shaw is just about done - he is the ideal Bakkies/M Johnson type of hard man that makes a huge difference providing scrum stability and hard graft - sadly he can't do much more than 20-25 minutes anymore.
Have to stick with my original comments re Kankowski though - he can look really good in a free-flowing S14 game on a hard field(he is very quick) but hasn't made the step up to International level - he doesn't have the bulk to make the yards and invariably gets turned over.
Spies is a monster who hasn't quite fulfilled his potential - once Brussow is back as fetcher I would be tempted to put Alberts at the back of the scrum(don't know if you have seen him yet but he is 119kg, a shade under 2m tall and punches above his weight!!), and try Spies at outside centre or right wing(14) - his 100m is comfortably under 11 sec and he is not a small unit either.

Can't wait for RWC next year - the AB's have to be firm favourites but if the Boks can just ignore the coaching staff(and make Juan Smith captain in place of VM), then they will put up a decent defence.
If the scrums and tight phases are reffed properly then the Aussies won't feature - they only have 2 decent forwards in Elsom and Pocock.
The biggest NH challenge will once again come from England, who despite a very mediocre team put up a great defence in 2007.
Was thinking France can't be counted out but then saw this evening's performance against Aus :roll: :roll: .
Ireland will crumble again and the Scots and Welsh just don't have the quality in depth that is needed.

Paul G
56, 1.74m , Sep '20 - 114 kg , currently - 98 kg
Image
200m - 30.8
300m - 47.7
30r20 - 7754m
12 hr - 139300m
100 mile - 14:10.12
200km - 18:28.30
User avatar
Paul Victory
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2016
Friend of the Free Spirits web site 2016
Posts: 10616
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:29 pm
I row on...: Model E with PM4
Location: Dublin

Re: England rugby gets a reality check

Post by Paul Victory »

paulgould wrote:Ireland will crumble again
Paul G
Sad, but probably true. :roll:
M 68 6'1" 124kg (May05), 92kg (Feb06), 122kg (Aug10), 95kg (Sep11), 117kg (Jun13), now 98kg
Image
User avatar
MartyJ
Spends too much time in the forum
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:54 pm
I row on...: Model C with PM4
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: England rugby gets a reality check

Post by MartyJ »

Doc RowSlo wrote: Finally, the RSA coaching staff are utter shite. No argument there. RWC 2011 will b interesting. Clearly the AB's are far better than anyone else at the moment.
I don't think the Kiwi's are clearly better at all... I think teams are far more even at the moment than they have been for a long while. The Kiwi's have it over the Aussies mentally at the moment, but in most of the matchups this year, the Wallabies were the better team by far during the first half of the game only to be run down time and time again by the Kiwi's in the 2nd half. The last match (in Hong Kong) saw the Wallabies finally hang on for the win - Kiwis are still on Top, but the margin is better than it has been for a while...

I'd have England right up there - as evident by their great game against the Wallabies a few weeks ago... the Springboks have been very hot and cold this year, so not sure you'd want to draw a line against their form based on any one game (especially since the Wallabies have had the measure of the Bok's this year.

The big surprise was how well the Wallabies went against France this weekend... not sure what has been going on over there, start the tour off beating the All Blacks in HK and then just go into party mode when they hit Europe - we were expecting a bit of a hiding from France, but maybe they've sorted things out now.

The Wallabies big weakness is the scrum, so England are always going to worry them (especially since they seem to have worked out our halves can't defend either)... will be an interesting time RWC2011, I don't think it is a foregone conclusion at all.
Age: 38 Height: 5'11" Weight: 131kg
Image
paulgould
Super Dedicated and Truly Free Spirit
Posts: 2839
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:40 am
I row on...: Model D with PM3
Location: Ryde, IOW

Re: England rugby gets a reality check

Post by paulgould »

MartyJ wrote:
Doc RowSlo wrote: Finally, the RSA coaching staff are utter shite. No argument there. RWC 2011 will b interesting. Clearly the AB's are far better than anyone else at the moment.
I don't think the Kiwi's are clearly better at all... I think teams are far more even at the moment than they have been for a long while. The Kiwi's have it over the Aussies mentally at the moment, but in most of the matchups this year, the Wallabies were the better team by far during the first half of the game only to be run down time and time again by the Kiwi's in the 2nd half. The last match (in Hong Kong) saw the Wallabies finally hang on for the win - Kiwis are still on Top, but the margin is better than it has been for a while...

I'd have England right up there - as evident by their great game against the Wallabies a few weeks ago... the Springboks have been very hot and cold this year, so not sure you'd want to draw a line against their form based on any one game (especially since the Wallabies have had the measure of the Bok's this year.

The big surprise was how well the Wallabies went against France this weekend... not sure what has been going on over there, start the tour off beating the All Blacks in HK and then just go into party mode when they hit Europe - we were expecting a bit of a hiding from France, but maybe they've sorted things out now.

The Wallabies big weakness is the scrum, so England are always going to worry them (especially since they seem to have worked out our halves can't defend either)... will be an interesting time RWC2011, I don't think it is a foregone conclusion at all.
I agree that is not much in it at the moment.
The AB's though, appear to be the most consistent - their forwards are good enough to get them go-forward ball, especially with McCaw being able to get away with murder at the breakdown!(It was fantastic seeing him get a well-deserved raking from the Welsh yesterday after getting caught on the wrong side) - their backline is very, very good - not as inventive as the Wallabies maybe, but they get the ball out wide so quickly that they always seem to have an overlap.
What really struck me after yesterday's games was the clash of styles and how each team seem to handle some styles better than others - England trounced the Aussies by establishing forward domination and holding on to the ball, not giving the Aussies a chance to run the ball back at them, but they can't cope when they are matched up front like against the Boks.
The AB's play a fairly loose, running type of game which plays directly into the Aussie's hands - their pack is better than Aus, but not by much, and the Aus backline is probably the best around, but again not by much.
The Boks, once they are matched up front, don't seem to have a plan B - we really are missing FDP at scrumhalf, he controls a game really well and brings out the best in Morne Steyn, who tends to kick aimlessly when put under a bit of pressure.
Against the Scots, the Boks were simply out-muscled and out-thought by a team playing the conditions better but yesterday showed that when the Boks don't kick the ball away then they are still a force to be reckoned with.

Paul G
56, 1.74m , Sep '20 - 114 kg , currently - 98 kg
Image
200m - 30.8
300m - 47.7
30r20 - 7754m
12 hr - 139300m
100 mile - 14:10.12
200km - 18:28.30
Post Reply