WAARC - November 2012 - 12min

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AlanS
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by AlanS » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:17 am

Based on the above amended formula:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Paul Victory » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:11 pm

AlanS wrote:Mike, I know what you mean, and it was Bill's adjusted distance this month versus last month's adjusted time that got me wondering. I've checked, double-checked and triple-checked my interpretation of the C2 formula, and I can't see where I've gone wrong. It looks to me as if C2's adjusted distance formula is 'wrong', or at least different to adjusted time. If anyone wants to take a look at my spreadsheet to see if I've done something wrong, PM me your email and I'll send it on.

Distance: 3079m
Weight: 73.3kg
Age: 38
I think the instructions are confusing as clearly it is not appropriate to apply an adjustment in seconds to a distance in meters. I've thought through the logic of how the age adjustment is supposed to work and it's already a bit variable in that it applies the same adjustment to a 2k for someone doing it in 6 minutes and someone doing it in 8 minutes. The percentage adjustment is therefore different depending on how fast you are in the first place. Maybe this is fair enough as it's a lot easier to knock 30 seconds off a 9 minutes 2k than off a 7 minutes 2k.

If we take the logic of this being a time adjustment that is proportionate to the distance rowed, I think the approach needed is to work out a time adjustment to the 12 minutes based on how far you rowed in the 12 minutes. If we apply the age adjustment first, we get the following calculation for my recent effort:

Distance 3088m
Weight 109.2kg
Age 59

Weight adjusted distance: 3088 * (109.2/77.27)^(2/9) = 2924m

Age adjustment: 44.9 seconds * 2924/2000 = 65.6 seconds

Adjusted distance: 2924 + 2924 * 65.6/720 = 3190m

Does this make sense?

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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by AlanS » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:32 pm

I think we're on the same page, Paul (not sure if you saw my post of this morning with my proposed new formula), so thanks for posting to confirm my thinking may just be right.

However, my spreadsheet came up with a different weight adjusted value for yourself - 2860 rather than your 2924. :?

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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by paulgould » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:45 pm

AlanS wrote:I think we're on the same page, Paul (not sure if you saw my post of this morning with my proposed new formula), so thanks for posting to confirm my thinking may just be right.

However, my spreadsheet came up with a different weight adjusted value for yourself - 2860 rather than your 2924. :?
I think Paul V works in the Financial Services sector - he has awarded himself a bonus :) :) .

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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Paul Victory » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:20 pm

AlanS wrote:I think we're on the same page, Paul (not sure if you saw my post of this morning with my proposed new formula), so thanks for posting to confirm my thinking may just be right.

However, my spreadsheet came up with a different weight adjusted value for yourself - 2860 rather than your 2924. :?
Sorry, Alan. I hadn't seen your posting when I did mine. Yes, we both came up with the same approach. And the correct weight adjusted figure is 2860, not 2924.

I was using the C2 spreadsheet and I inadvertently applied both the adjustment shown on the C2 spreadsheet (+2.245%) and the adjustment that we both worked out as correct. My adjusted distance should therefore be 3115m, which ties in with your listing.

Sorry about that.

Paul V

As for Paul G's scurrilous comment, I don't think pension consultants should be regarded as being in the Financial Services sector. I certainly never got a Financial Services sector type bonus (unfortunately) :evil:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by AlanS » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:02 am

We have a new leader:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by OddI » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:49 pm

Exciting adjustments and calculations!! Well done Alan =D>

3385m - 74kg - 52 years young.

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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by AlanS » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:15 pm

Sorry Mikkel, we have another new leader already:
201211 waarc - 12min - male.jpg
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No female entries so far. A few have submitted times for the CTC; if you'd like that to be used here as well, just add your details to this thread.

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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Stan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:52 pm

3101, 100kg
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by AlanS » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:03 pm

One last update to the leaderboard before the weekend...
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Stan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:52 pm

Wish I hadnt bothered now. I reckon there should be a height adjustment, much more influential than weight. *sulks*
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by stumpy » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:36 pm

Stan wrote:Wish I hadnt bothered now. I reckon there should be a height adjustment, much more influential than weight. *sulks*
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Stan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:02 pm

:lol:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Mike Channin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:43 pm

Firstly - great result, Odd. Good to see you doing this - this kind of adjustment was always going to show how great your achievements are - well done. Stan, you may be last on the board at the moment, but you're still doing better than all those who haven't entered. Seems this kind of comparison scares some of the big boys away ;-)

Without getting into too much detail, I personally think this scoring model gives too much benefit on age and not enough (relatively) on weigh, most obviously because one is based on a theoretical boat speed (not equalising performance across the demographic range), whereas the age one is purely statistical equalising. But them's the rules! (Alan, if you could still show the weight only adjustment we started with, just for interest, I'd appreciate it.)

All a bit academic for me at the moment, recovering from tonsillitis (again), but I live in hope of getting an improvement yet...
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by plummy » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:28 am

Psyching myself up for another crack at this tomorrow. I guess it'll hurt no matter what :shock:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by paulgould » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:46 am

Mike Channin wrote: Seems this kind of comparison scares some of the big boys away ;-)

Without getting into too much detail, I personally think this scoring model gives too much benefit on age and not enough (relatively) on weigh, most obviously because one is based on a theoretical boat speed (not equalising performance across the demographic range), whereas the age one is purely statistical equalising. But them's the rules! (Alan, if you could still show the weight only adjustment we started with, just for interest, I'd appreciate it.)
I'm not one of the "big boys" you speak so disparagingly of but maybe my view of all this might be similar to theirs - the goal is to get the quickest time or furthest distance possible, simple as that - I'm sure if it was going to lead to a performance improvement then that would be an inducement to lose weight.
You are either a LWT or HWT - there is no middleweight or light-heavyweight - a 100kg erger rowing a 6:20 is faster than an 80kg erger of the same age rowing a 6:30, and therefore a better erger in my view.
Erging is a separate sport from OTW rowing and how fast you can potentially move a boat has no relevance to erging whatsoever.
By all means, have a separate competition/comparison if you feel the need, just don't use it as a platform to have snide digs at those who don't participate.

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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by plummy » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:02 pm

plummy wrote:Psyching myself up for another crack at this tomorrow. I guess it'll hurt no matter what :shock:
I was right - hurt like a SOB! However, starting a fraction faster and managing to neg split got me to 3244m (a 24m improvement). A bit annoyed that in the last 3~4 mins of what felt like oxygen depravation, I convinced myself that SJRoos (LWT in FSII) had finished on 3259m and was out of reach but that was Thomas' distance. SJ was on 3249 :evil: #-o - SOOOO close - aarrggh!

:D - the better news is I just weighed myself and came in at exactly 68kg!!! :D

Interesting to see how that calculates out - Alan?

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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Stan » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:15 pm

Nice one Plummy. That must be about 6000 with the adjustment :lol: Guess I will have to go sit in a sauna for a couple of months to improve for this one. On a serious note I will be having another go after Newark
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Shang-Chi » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:34 pm

hewitt wrote:
AlanS wrote: Any questions?
Just one question? What is this going to prove in terms of rowing?

I can't enter something like this because i just get battered out of the challenge by the adjustments.I have tried racing on RowPro with 16 others and i win every race but end up coming about 6th because i weigh to much. :roll:
People like Hywel Davis(triathlete and rower) will win these challenges everytime.65-68kgs and can row 8600m+ for 30min.
It will prove the effectiveness of your row weight- and age-wise. O:)
AlanS wrote:Sorry Mikkel, we have another new leader already.
At least I was the leader for an hour or so :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm not sure it will be possible to beat Odd, unless I go pace sub. 1:42.0 He's very effective! =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Pepe » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:28 am

I had another attempt today and improved by 28m. to 2836m.
Weight: 71.75 kg.
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by AlanS » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:01 am

An update from plummy and a first entry from Pepe:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Shang-Chi » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Nice David, but you're getting awfully close now. 8-[ =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Well done to Philip too :!: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> Amazing credits you'll get on the meters :!: :shock:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by AlanS » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:01 am

Mike Channin wrote:(Alan, if you could still show the weight only adjustment we started with, just for interest, I'd appreciate it.)
I can do better than that, Mike. Not only can I add a weight only adjustment, I can also add an age only adjustment:
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by chipmunkcheeks » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:30 pm

2319 m
12 mins
age 46
49 kg
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Re: Weight & Age Adjusted Rowing Challenge - November 2012

Post by Shang-Chi » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:26 pm

Well done Chip :!: =D> =D> =D> I can't tell if it's fast or slow, but you weighing only 49 kg., it looks good. :D
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