October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

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JonT
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October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by JonT »

This challenge was chosen by The Chain Pullers

2 minute Row
1 minute rest
2 minute Row
1 minute rest
2 minute Row
1 minute rest
2 minute Row
1 minute rest
2 minute Row
1 minute rest
2 minute Row

Record total meters rowed

Standing start for all 2 Minute intervals – Any meters recorded in the rest time must be subtracted from the total.

There is a lot of debate on the forums about the standing starts and the possibility that people will inadvertently include any rest meters.


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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mike Channin »

I get what they're trying to do, but subtracting the rest meters is madness. Even if you stop dead-on the end of the active 2 mins, you'll clock maybe 20m or more as the flywheel spins down, possibly more if you sprint the end (and get more spin).
Most people row at a lowish drag where the wheel will still be spinning after 2 mins, so unless they want you to get off and physically stop the flywheel, there's not a lot of hope of a _true_ standing start.
Those who row with very high drag may possibly see the flywheel near stationary and close to a standing start by the start of the next active interval.

The 'spirit' of a standing start is not to be taking a couple of strokes just before the start of the work interval and hitting the start already at (or even below) target pace. Instead you literally wait until the interval starts (and take the slight penalty of being slightly after the actual start), plus the hit of spinning up the flywheel over the first strokes. There are tricks to minimise this too (similar to those for race starts).

Not sure I can see people wanting to subtract 100m or more from their hard earned totals, just because of the spin-down of the flywheel when they stop actively rowing across 5 rest periods...

If you program the intervals properly 6x2min/r1min (on a PM3 or later), it will separate the active from rest meters and show both totals.
If you have a PM2, I don't think you can see rest meters at all, if you program as intervals.

Possibly the worst thought out CTC yet (in terms of implementing the rules), even if the idea was good.
IMHO

(Now, if they allowed 25 rest m x 5 = 125, and made you subtract anything over that, that would keep most honest...)
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mike Channin »

Had a look on the CTC Forum and the 'advice' seems to be to stop rowing 4-5 seconds early to avoid rest meters, which probably makes sense, but might take some experimentation to refine, which could actually be interesting.
On the other hand, I like the idea of rowing less to get a better score ;-)

Also, as someone points out, there will probably be plenty of people who don't read the rules fully and don't subtract the rest meters.
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by JonT »

Mike Channin wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:51 pm Had a look on the CTC Forum and the 'advice' seems to be to stop rowing 4-5 seconds early to avoid rest meters, which probably makes sense, but might take some experimentation to refine, which could actually be interesting.
On the other hand, I like the idea of rowing less to get a better score ;-)

Also, as someone points out, there will probably be plenty of people who don't read the rules fully and don't subtract the rest meters.
Isn't it just a case of adding all of the totals for each 2 min interval together after the session and submitting that? Or am I being thick #-o
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mike Channin »

The rules say you MUST subtract ANY REST METERS
Say you row 3000m active, and clock 100m rest - the rules say you must submit 2900, and not 3000. (This kind of hurts...)

Waaaay back in the early days of FS, we used to have a more fun based monthly 'challenge' where we'd do more bizarre challenges, and some of those had penalties for deviating from pace, and they were kind of interesting, but probably not suitable for competitive use. (The 'blind devil' was an all time classic!)
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by JonT »

Mike Channin wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:00 pm The rules say you MUST subtract ANY REST METERS
Say you row 3000m active, and clock 100m rest - the rules say you must submit 2900, and not 3000. (This kind of hurts...)
Ah, I see. I imagine that isn't what they actually intended, and that they meant "rest meters do not count towards the total". If that isn't the case then I agree that this is a crazy format. I guess if I am right they could have cleared it up on the forum.....so I must be wrong and thy must be crazy. Ho hum. #-o
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mike Channin »

So this was the clarification posted:
I've contacted Richard from the Chain Pullers to clarify an aspect of the challenge which was a bit ambiguous. If you row, say, 3,500 metres during the six work intervals and accrue 250 metres during the rests, you should log 3,500 - 250 i.e 3,250 metres for the challenge.

The easiest way to set this up on the PM is 'Intervals Time' with work efforts of 2 mins and rest at 1 min. After six such efforts, the logcard will show both the total distance rowed during the efforts and, as an 'r' footnote, the distance rowed during the rests.

The session poses an interesting strategic question. Is it better to stop rowing a few seconds before the end of the work interval and lose some distance but not accrue as many rest metres?
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Liefcat »

Wow - this is actually interesting... I guess I will aim for a relatively hard strokes with +4 secs left of the interval...

In my old rowing Club we did a challenge to get as close to say 500m as possible, and I am still doing it on my own Till this very day... So I will try to Switch from meters to seconds...
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Paul Victory »

I can't believe they want you to subtract rest meters, as opposed to ignoring them. If that's what they actually intend, it's the most ridiculous challenge ever and I hope they get the low turn out they deserve. I, for one, will not be attempting the challenge if those are the rules. (Might not be doing it in any event because of ongoing back issues :roll: ).

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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by paulgould »

Looks to be quite a fun one - different anyway.
Because I row with the mesh grille off and on a high-ish DFI will be able to do all the active intervals off a standing start so it will just be a case of knowing how long before the end of each 2 minutes to stop pulling to reduce the rest metres - my guess is 5-6 secs.

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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mike Channin »

Liefcat - that blind devil challenge we used to do was to aim to get exactly 666m, but you did the whole thing eyes closed!
It is one of the more fun (and inclusive) challenges, but it can be very frustrating :-)
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by plummy »

Is there some basic misunderstanding going on here and all they are saying is "count the active metres" and "don't count the rest metres"? If you set it up as proposed above then, the rest metres will just sit separately in the overall total so you can just add up the active parts. If there are any rest metres in the total "rowed" and they appear as added to the overall total, subtracting them again just gets you back to where you were anyway???
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Liefcat »

Mike Channin wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:12 pm Liefcat - that blind devil challenge we used to do was to aim to get exactly 666m, but you did the whole thing eyes closed!
It is one of the more fun (and inclusive) challenges, but it can be very frustrating :-)
Oh, that´s how it went... :lol: Who the heck invented that thing, Mike :?: :lol:

Maybe an idea for a future ctc :?: :!: :?: (NOT! [-X :^o )
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by paulgould »

plummy wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:39 pm Is there some basic misunderstanding going on here and all they are saying is "count the active metres" and "don't count the rest metres"? If you set it up as proposed above then, the rest metres will just sit separately in the overall total so you can just add up the active parts. If there are any rest metres in the total "rowed" and they appear as added to the overall total, subtracting them again just gets you back to where you were anyway???
No - i think you are misunderstanding here.
The instruction is to take any rest metres off your active metres total.

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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Liefcat »

First little tryout today. Got 3237 active m and 28 "passive" resulting in a result of 3209m.

Made my biggest mistake in the 1st rep: 346m but the total slid to 353m #-o , meaning there was a 7m deduction. Then adjusted to only getting a few metres "extra" in the following... 8)
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mat »

Liefcat wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:52 pm First little tryout today. Got 3237 active m and 28 "passive"
I matched your rest metres on my attempt today with 28m :D

Interesting challenge, and tough to know how to pace it after last months. Thought I'd go for a steady 1:45 but ended up going a bit faster, but did the final stroke with approx 4-5s to go in order to minimise rest metres. That seemed to work well - can't be too concerned with around 5m per interval which seems like a good balance
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by plummy »

paulgould wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:30 pm
plummy wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:39 pm Is there some basic misunderstanding going on here and all they are saying is "count the active metres" and "don't count the rest metres"? If you set it up as proposed above then, the rest metres will just sit separately in the overall total so you can just add up the active parts. If there are any rest metres in the total "rowed" and they appear as added to the overall total, subtracting them again just gets you back to where you were anyway???
No - i think you are misunderstanding here.
The instruction is to take any rest metres off your active metres total.

Paul G
Now I've actually read the instructions it's pretty clear. Kinda like 1:50~1:52 active and 1:10~1:08 rest
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mike Channin »

Off topic, I know, but about the Blind Devil Challenge:
Oh, that´s how it went... :lol: Who the heck invented that thing, Mike :?: :lol:

Maybe an idea for a future ctc :?: :!: :?: (NOT! [-X :^o )
I'm pretty sure it was invented by the legendary Thomas W-P.
It would almost be worth putting it up as a CTC to see the fuss it would cause.. :shock:

Here's the 2013 version: http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/ ... =15&t=2511
I'm pretty sure we did it back in 2006 too, but I might just be getting old...
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by paulgould »

plummy wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:58 pm
paulgould wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:30 pm
plummy wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:39 pm Is there some basic misunderstanding going on here and all they are saying is "count the active metres" and "don't count the rest metres"? If you set it up as proposed above then, the rest metres will just sit separately in the overall total so you can just add up the active parts. If there are any rest metres in the total "rowed" and they appear as added to the overall total, subtracting them again just gets you back to where you were anyway???
No - i think you are misunderstanding here.
The instruction is to take any rest metres off your active metres total.

Paul G
Now I've actually read the instructions it's pretty clear. Kinda like 1:50~1:52 active and 1:10~1:08 rest
Yea - pretty much what I was thinking - I will probably try and go for 1:53/1:54 active.

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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Liefcat »

Mike Channin wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:11 pm Off topic, I know, but about the Blind Devil Challenge:
Oh, that´s how it went... :lol: Who the heck invented that thing, Mike :?: :lol:

Maybe an idea for a future ctc :?: :!: :?: (NOT! [-X :^o )
I'm pretty sure it was invented by the legendary Thomas W-P.
It would almost be worth putting it up as a CTC to see the fuss it would cause.. :shock:

Here's the 2013 version: http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/ ... =15&t=2511
I'm pretty sure we did it back in 2006 too, but I might just be getting old...
Gee, thanks, Mike! Sorry that I missed the 2013 edition!

And... Paul V... You are soooo BUSTED! LOL
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by JonT »

Mike Channin wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:11 pm Off topic, I know, but about the Blind Devil Challenge:

I'm pretty sure it was invented by the legendary Thomas W-P.
What little I learned about Thomas when he handed over the website and Meterboard makes that very easy to imagine :fsbgrin:
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by fkoene »

Back on the CTC board. First C2 session after my operation. Had been working out in the gym already, yesterday my first rowing on the water (with a permanent bank though, have no idea how to say that in English).
Was positively surprised that my overall pace was slightly below 2minutes. Ended every rep about ten seconds earlier to avoid rest meters. Ended out with 3025 meters. Not the best result imaginable but at least it's a start again. Maybe room for improvement before the end of the month.
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Paul Victory »

Liefcat wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:02 pm And... Paul V... You are soooo BUSTED! LOL
What did I do? That was back when I enjoyed rowing (some of the time, at any rate).
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by Mike Channin »

Finally had a go at this today. Managed 3361m but lost 31 rest metres.
Certainly an odd challenge - it's strange when coming to the end of the interval to be concentrating on when to stop early, rather than trying to survive to the end.
I was dropping a fair chunk of average split from the early stop, and then some more on the rest meters subtraction - makes me wonder what an 'unrestricted' 6 x 2:00/r1:00 would look like
Are people setting for Time Intervals 2min active 1min rest?
I wondered if setting for Variable might avoid recording rest metres after the final interval. (Not sure if it does this on Time Intervals either, but I suspected it did)
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Re: October CTC - 12 minutes in pieces

Post by paulgould »

[quote="Mike Channin" post_id=157566 time=1634199434 user_id=53
Are people setting for Time Intervals 2min active 1min rest?
I wondered if setting for Variable might avoid recording rest metres after the final interval. (Not sure if it does this on Time Intervals either, but I suspected it did)
[/quote]

Setting the piece up as Variable intervals will not record the 6th rest piece

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200m - 30.8
300m - 47.7
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12 hr - 139300m
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