October CTC: 10k unrestricted

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Rodger
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October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Rodger » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:03 pm

Joe Keating on Facebook: "The Paddies have chosen 10km unrestricted, apart from a standing start, for the October CTC."
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by sander » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:22 pm

Nice
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by E-Clair » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:07 am

Very convenient time of year for it. Wanted something in 6k+ range for testing.
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by J-Dog » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

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OK, there's a plan, here. Go with it.

The only options I have to get a reasonable showing in the October CTC (and not be on my own in the last boat, again are:

1) bribery and corruption, lying, mass hypnosis, etc.;

2) gender re-assignment surgery (probably stings a lot?);

3) start practicing for the 10k early.

I'm going for option (3).

I haven't done a full 10k for 3 years, so I thought another 30' would be a good start to judge the pace for my 10k attempt. I may be a lot faster after all my 10 minute runs this month.

I tried to go at 2:24, and things got a little hectic at the end.

How fast do you think I should try to aim at for the first 10k, based on this? 2:26? 2:30?

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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Sheena » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:02 pm

J-Dog wrote: How fast do you think I should try to aim at for the first 10k, based on this? 2:26? 2:30?J-Dog
Hi J-Dog, quite a good even pace over the 30 minutes.
I'd see if I could hold that pace over a 35 then 40 minute session (on separate days :fsgrin:) and that should then give you an idea on pace for the 10K.

To give you a real target though, I'll be aiming for under 2:20 :twisted:

By the way what was the drag factor?

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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Rodger » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:04 pm

J-Dog, under Utilities on this website you find a Pace Predictor (made by Thomas), which works pretty well. I dialed in your 10' CTC and this 30'. Then this is what you get. According to this, an average pace of around 2:27 for the 10k should be doable.

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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by J-Dog » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:16 pm

Rodger (and Thomas): that's really useful. Thanks.

I'm improving fairly quickly at the moment, from a pretty low baseline, but that gives me a useful yardstick.

Sheena: 2:20 would kill me for even the 30' at the moment. I was well into the 160+ bpm range (with 2:23.7), which is too high for safety until I've got some more conditioning done.

I like your idea of keeping the pace the same but increasing the duration. That gives me the added benefit of being able to compare different rows for HR to see if I'm improving.

Thanks for the help, both.

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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by zootMutant » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:43 am

Hey J-Dog,

You've had a solid month with the CTC and your fitness is improving fast. =D>

Sheena and Rodger have given you a couple of good targets (I'd think of these as the 'Bronze Star' and 'Gold Star' goals, with maybe 2:23.5 as the 'Silver Star' goal). But since you haven't done a 10K in 3 years, I'd start off even slower just to make sure you don't injure yourself. And I'd mix up the sessions so you don't burn yourself out.

How many sessions a week were you thinking of? 3? You might try something like:

Session 1 -- recovery row. Low drag factor (110-120), low stroke rate (18-22), low heart rate (110-125). The focus would be on using the correct form and strengthening those rowing muscles you never think about (lower back, shoulders, biceps/triceps), and getting used to sitting down for 30 min at a stretch.

Session 2 -- solid aerobic row. Moderate drag factor (120-130), moderate stroke rate (20-24), moderate heart rate (capped at 145 - or where you can still talk, but with maybe taking a breath every 5-6 words). The focus would be on building a solid aerobic foundation.

Session 3 -- SB attempt. Choose whatever drag factor and stroke rate seem to work best for you.

If you added a 4th workout, I'd make it another session #2. A 5th workout would be another session #1.

This would give you (4) SB attempts for the month, with plenty of time for recovery between attempts.

Note: This is just a suggestion! The most important thing is to learn to listen to your body... when you need more rest and when you can push harder... when your pace is too fast and when you're slacking off!

Good luck! :P
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by E-Clair » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:37 am

When I got my C2-D5 in Dec, I looked at that 8x750m CTC and decided it was just too long for me. Since this 10k seems fantastic to you, J-Dog, I suggest you don't make a serious effort at it until the second half of October. Since you did a serious 10' recently, you have a rough idea of your 2k Wattage, about 140 or so. So I think you should do plenty of longer rowing in the 70 W to 80 W range before your first attempt. Since it's a long tough row, you probably shouldn't figure on more than two attempts. FWIW
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by zootMutant » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:09 pm

E-Clair wrote:Since you did a serious 10' recently, you have a rough idea of your 2k Wattage, about 140 or so. So I think you should do plenty of longer rowing in the 70 W to 80 W range before your first attempt. Since it's a long tough row, you probably shouldn't figure on more than two attempts. FWIW
J-Dog: the utilities section has a tool for converting watts to split.

140 w = 2:15.7
70-80 w = 2:51.0 - 2:43.6
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by J-Dog » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:52 pm

Great advice, all. I'm grateful.

I used to do 10k and 30' sessions as my normal training when I was keen, three years ago. I got down to 2:24.0 for 10k on Christmas Eve 2012 (my PB).

My training then was aimed at aerobic fitness, so long sessions at a pace that I could maintain to the end without bursting was what I went for. If I was feeling rubbish, I'd just focus on the metres and use a slower pace (2:30 ish). I watched a lot of 'Castle' on Netflix whilst rowing :-)

I usually plan on doing training every other day as a max, and the real world often gets in the way to make it more like 2 or 3 times a week on average.

The recent CTC, and discovering the Nonalthon, were the first times I've tried to go fast at shorter distances. It's been fun watching the pace improve.

I'm trying to keep the HR below 160 until I'm more confident it can take it. I have the DF at about 130, I think.

I'm thinking I'll try a long, slow (2:30), 10k and focus on making it to the end and putting down a marker. Once I've done that, and posted the gory split chart, I'd be grateful for your thoughts on my next move. e-Clair may be right that 2:40 - 2:50 is more likely to work, but I'm going to be optimistic, then slow down if the HR refuses to stay below 160 ish.

I only have tomorrow morning, though, then a few weeks away with little chance of finding a C2 to use.

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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Ian Bee » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:02 am

J-Dog wrote:Great advice, all. I'm grateful.

*SNIP*

I'm thinking I'll try a long, slow (2:30), 10k and focus on making it to the end and putting down a marker. Once I've done that, and posted the gory split chart, I'd be grateful for your thoughts on my next move. e-Clair may be right that 2:40 - 2:50 is more likely to work, but I'm going to be optimistic, then slow down if the HR refuses to stay below 160 ish.

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I had a little test on pacing for this last night (I know what waterrower pace I would be comfortable at, but C2 pace is a mystery). My waterrower pace for a hardish 10km tends to be around 2.04, so I tried holding between 2.15 and 2.20 on the gym c2 which seemed OK for a 20 minute row. I shall hog the rower on Saturday morning to see if that's realistic....

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Time Meters /500m Watts s/m 30:33.1 6,620m 2:18.4 132 23 5:00.0 1,062m 2:21.2 124 23 10:00.0 1,101m 2:16.2 138 24 15:00.0 1,099m 2:16.4 138 24 20:00.0 1,095m 2:16.9 136 24 25:00.0 1,094m 2:17.1 136 25 30:00.0 1,091m 2:17.4 135 25 30:33.1 78m 3:32.1 37 18
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by millie » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:30 am

After being one of the last to do the Sept challenge I think I am probably first to do the Oct 10k challenge :D

Wasn't planning on doing an erg session this morning but too windy to go OTW and so decided to do a 10k rate capped at 20spm as practice for a full out unrestricted 10k effort in next couple of weeks. Hadn't actually realised it was October already (I am in Australia in case you're scratching your heads!) until I looked up at the clock after about 5k, so putting this down as a placeholder and then when I do unrestricted 10k (which will likely be at ~ 24spm) I am hoping to hold ~2:06 pace which would be a PB.

Anyway today's session was:
10k 42:57.6 2:08.8 20spm

Held constant splits, picked up pace a bit for last 2k but kept at 20spm the whole way which is a very comfortable stroke rate for me.

Pretty happy with that, felt strong and confident I can speed up at least 3s/500m when I up the rate. Felt about a 95% session today so definitely more to come (I hope!!)

Good luck to everyone else having a go :fsbgrin:
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Rodger » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:03 am

That's an impressive 'placeholder' there, Millie! And that at 20 spm! I would be content if that was my first attempt at free rate.

Now don't forget to check the CTC website at least 10 times today to see if they changed over the month already.
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by millie » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:08 am

Rodger wrote:That's an impressive 'placeholder' there, Millie! And that at 20 spm! I would be content if that was my first attempt at free rate.

Now don't forget to check the CTC website at least 10 times today to see if they changed over the month already.
Thanks Rodger :D sure you'll be going a fair bit quicker than me though!!

And yes I have checked the CTC website multiple times :oops: but I think it switches over to the new month around midday GMT to allow US rowers to still post times and that will be middle of the night here so sure by the time I get to post it there will be many others already there. :evil:

But I will know I was probably the first to actually complete it as surely can't anyone else who had finished the 10k by 8am on 1st Oct Sydney time!! :twisted: :fsbgrin:
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by JonT » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:43 pm

Well after a month away from the erg, that hurt! Certainly a baptism of fire for me #-o

I set Rowpro to pace me at my SB (don't ask me why!) and I managed to keep ahead of that pace (2:04.6 for the first 5k). After that it was all horrid, but I managed to stay ahead of the 'sweeper' pace boat that I had set at 2:06. Pretty much the whole row in TR and then the last 1500m in AN is not my idea of fun. Serves me right for not keeping up with the rowing!

On the bright side I'm afloat and made another contribution to the Fall Challenge :fsbgrin:

P.S. What happened to the general principle that C2CTC should be around a 30 minute affair to encourage participation?

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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by zootMutant » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Well done Millie and John! =D>
JonT wrote:P.S. What happened to the general principle that C2CTC should be around a 30 minute affair to encourage participation?
I have never heard that. I thought the idea was to keep it in under an hour for most people, including warm up and cool down, so a 10k barely fits... if you are in good shape. :oops:
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by JonT » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:13 pm

zootMutant wrote:Well done Millie and John! =D>
JonT wrote:P.S. What happened to the general principle that C2CTC should be around a 30 minute affair to encourage participation?
I have never heard that. I thought the idea was to keep it in under an hour for most people, including warm up and cool down, so a 10k barely fits... if you are in good shape. :oops:
I just checked the C2CTC site and you are right. The guidance is
C2CTC wrote:Duration of a challenge: There was unease at MAD's 12km challenge which fitted the criterion of an hour for warm-up, row & cool-down when elite rowers were considered but not for slower categories. 10km was established as the limit for single distances or 45 minutes for timed intervals.
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by JonT » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:58 am

....and Free Spirits I is the first boat to float in the October Challenge =D>
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by jhaveman » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:11 pm

Well done to all for putting FS in first position!

Jon, that looked like a very hard row, well done for hanging in there and even pulling an end sprint out of the hat =D> =D>
You seem to have a pretty high max heart rate!

I did my first attempt today. Didn't feel like an all out attempt on my PB yet (there has to be scope to improve :fsgrin:) but felt pretty good today and managed 41:02.3 (24" behind my PB). My target is to get in the 40:30 area, see how close I get this month. At least this gets me in boat 1 for now :D
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Rodger » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:18 pm

millie wrote:
Rodger wrote:That's an impressive 'placeholder' there, Millie! And that at 20 spm! I would be content if that was my first attempt at free rate.

Now don't forget to check the CTC website at least 10 times today to see if they changed over the month already.
Thanks Rodger :D sure you'll be going a fair bit quicker than me though!!

And yes I have checked the CTC website multiple times :oops: but I think it switches over to the new month around midday GMT to allow US rowers to still post times and that will be middle of the night here so sure by the time I get to post it there will be many others already there. :evil:

But I will know I was probably the first to actually complete it as surely can't anyone else who had finished the 10k by 8am on 1st Oct Sydney time!! :twisted: :fsbgrin:
Free Spirits will know you were first. :fsgrin: I only guessed you would be checking the CTC website to change over because that's what I would do if I had an early row to enter.
JonT wrote:Well after a month away from the erg, that hurt! Certainly a baptism of fire for me #-o

I set Rowpro to pace me at my SB (don't ask me why!) and I managed to keep ahead of that pace (2:04.6 for the first 5k). After that it was all horrid, but I managed to stay ahead of the 'sweeper' pace boat that I had set at 2:06. Pretty much the whole row in TR and then the last 1500m in AN is not my idea of fun. Serves me right for not keeping up with the rowing!
Pretty strong result and very brave pace goal if you haven't done much rowing lately! =D> You must be doing a lot of other aerobic exercise then?

I set a marker to (hopefully) improve on later this month, but it was a fairly all-out affair apart from a cautious start. So I don't know if there's much room for improvement. Suppose it depends on the quality and quantity of my training in the next weeks then. :twisted:

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jhaveman wrote:I did my first attempt today. Didn't feel like an all out attempt on my PB yet (there has to be scope to improve :fsgrin:) but felt pretty good today and managed 41:02.3 (24" behind my PB). My target is to get in the 40:30 area, see how close I get this month. At least this gets me in boat 1 for now :D
I won't be troubling you then this month. Good luck with the PB attempt soon!
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by zootMutant » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:12 pm

Strong rows by both Jan and Rodger! Well done! =D>

I stuck me toes in the water today.

I haven't done any long rows since May... and even those were not very fast. So, looking at my 10' CTC, I estimated my 2k and based on that I thought I might manage a 2:15 pace... if I could hold out for the full 10K!

So, instead of just blasting away I decided on the following:

2,500 m @ 2:15 r24
2,500 m @ 2:22 r20

then repeat. Here's how it went:

2,500 m -- 2:14.5 -- s23 -- EHR 139
2,500 m -- 2:21.3 -- s20 -- EHR 136
2,500 m -- 2:14.2 -- s23 -- EHR 145
2,500 m -- 2:20.6 -- s20 -- EHR 142

I also increased my drag factor from around 110-115 to 135. Not bad. My legs are very tire, but there is plenty of room for improvement. :P
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Ian Bee » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:23 am

Found myself with a access to the C2 at the local gym, with the result of a 44.45. Steady stroke rate of 24 / 2.15 split throughout, so perhaps I might shave a second or two off the split before month end.
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by Caratacus » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:42 am

Had my first attempt today with a 10k r20. Stupidly let my competitive beast get the better of me as I should have gone a lot slower and can really feel it in my back now. Think I need to rethink my approach and ease back in much more gently. Still, a nice time at that rate :)
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Re: October CTC: 10k unrestricted

Post by danfennell » Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:54 pm

Valiant effort Felton although I hope you didn't do any damage.

I've been questioning my approach to rowing quite a bit lately. I have tended to be a pretty strict (OCD..???) rate/pace type rower. Some of this comes from my personality and some from following Sam's plans where he recommends rate/pace combinations based on 2k, 5k, etc. I think a lot of it makes sense but it can also take a lot of the fun/enjoyment/spontaneity (if there is any :lol: ) out of rowing.

Lately I have decided to take a more "go with the flow" approach and it seems to be working. This row was originally planned as a 24spm/1:56 pace but it felt awkward right from the start. Instead of stubbornly grinding through it ,as I would have in the past, I found a pace and rate that felt more comfortable. Kept the HR under control and resisted the temptation to push the pace. Plan on doing a couple more.
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