CTC - Ski-ergs, sliders and dynamics

[Caratacus]

There has been a bit of a brouhaha over on Facebook concerning whether ski-ergs, sliders and dynamics should be allowed to take part and if so how they should be classified. A poll was conducted which came down slightly in favour of inclusion but was probably not the most scientifically rigorous. I just wanted to get the thoughts of other Free Spirits on this matter. Personally, I would prefer it to be a competition for static ergs only but don't feel overly strongly about it and would be happy with a compromise such as separate teams for ski-ergs, sliders and dynamics.

[sander]

For me, sliders and dynamics are ok.

Never been close to a ski-erg, so I don't know about that one.

[Claudius]

It is been a long time, it must be winter ´05/´06 when i had access in a gym to a Model C on slides...good feeling, pacing should be the same. It feels different especially the first half of the drive,it suggest a easier leg work which did not result in pace. Never used a dynamic or a ski erg. In Germany the concept2 rowers in the gyms are often kept as orphans, bad maintenance, the users wont get a guide to use them...About this i plan a post concerning row pro and digitalrowing, nevertheless...so you wont find a skierg or a dynamic in Germany...it was a miracle to find one on slides , I think slides and dynamic are ok, cause it is the rowing movement, as a enthusiastic cross country skier i´d like to try a ski erg, but as a matter of fact it is a diffenrent movement of the body and so i see this thing on ctc critically but i am not against it.

[Paul Victory]

Personally, I'd be inclined to agree with Felton. I think it should be a level playing field and therefore static only. Otherwise, is it OK if I enter my distance on a wattbike?

[JonT]

Personally, I'd be inclined to agree with Felton. I think it should be a level playing field and therefore static only. Otherwise, is it OK if I enter my distance on a wattbike?

You have a wattbike!?

[Rob C]

If it is a form of rowing then I don't see a problem, but I don't understand the difference the different kit might make. But surely the skierg is a different movement entirely and thus has completely different strengths and weaknesses so should be excluded from a rowing movement based activity?

[K_Cat]

What I posted on one of the many FB threads about it:

"So, it's not a rowing challenge anymore. Silly to include the SkiErg and not other types of rowing machines or OTW or watt bike or treadmill, for that matter. Living at 7200 ft, my perspective is that there is no playing field that is level for everyone. Best to keep it simple. Static rowers only."

The argument that "it's slower, so it's okay" is pretty outrageous, IMO. In 2015 (calendar year), I ran over 1000 mi, biked over 2200 mi, and rowed over 3Mm. Can I just add all of those meters together and call them "rowing"? Obviously not. Each activity is completely different. In the mountains, living at 7200 ft, none of them is ever easy. It's a given that I'm going slower than people at sea-level, because hypoxia is not my friend. But, even if my watt bike was made by C2, biking and rowing are not the same (and neither is a SkiErg).

Just my 2 cents.

Peggy

[jhaveman]

Peggy, we tend to agree with you - it seems to make sense to have separate categories for different types of equipment.
Otherwise you don't know what you're comparing yourself against, and the CTC loses some of its attraction (although there would still be the internal Free Spirits rivalry ).
A compromise could be to have a filter on the CTC web page that lets you select which types of equipment are included in the ranking that's displayed.

Sheena and Jan

[gregsmith01748]

I am in favor of including static, dynamic and sliders but not the ski-erg. In my mind, the differences between the three flavors of rowing machines is narrow enough that different people will have different preferences, and in some cases those preferences might vary by event type. In a way it could be similar to people who race bikes might have different equipment they prefer for hilly or flat terrain.

I want to try to make the CTC and other competitions as inclusive as possible. I'd hate to have subcategories or exclude people that only have access to a dynamic machine. The sport is small enough as it is, I think we have to cast a wide net.

[Paul Victory]

I want to try to make the CTC and other competitions as inclusive as possible. I'd hate to have subcategories or exclude people that only have access to a dynamic machine. The sport is small enough as it is, I think we have to cast a wide net.

I agree with the sentiments you're expressing Greg, but I wonder how many people there are out there who have access to a dynamic erg or one on slides and don't have access to a static erg. Having said that, I accept that OTW rowers may prefer using an erg on slides, so I've no valid grounds for objecting to slides, but I think the dynamic erg is a different animal - particularly for sprints. Just my 2 cents worth.

To be honest, I'm not all that exercised about it.

[gregsmith01748]

I'm not sure how common it is either, but I know Bob S over on the US boards has a dynamic at home and has to travel to find a static. I think it could become a bigger deal over time as the dynamic installed base grows.

[CamiCrew]

The C2CTC is for fun. No prizes. No money. No rewards points for a stay at the Ritz. It's cool how people around the world join in on behalf of their chosen team.

I do the CTC with Free Spirits because this team offers a surprisingly high level of inclusiveness, tolerance, positive feedback, encouragement, and respect.

When I see drama and 'brouhaha' starting up (FB, other forums, wherever), I tune out. Sorry, I get enough at work all week.

I'm fine with sliders, dynamics. I've tried them. They may give an edge especially on high rate pieces, but why would that bother me if competing with all age ranges doesn't?

Would hate for teammates to be discouraged from the fun spirit of the CTC. I walked by a skierg at a C2 tent yesterday. Its strong family resemblance to the erg and fact that it is a C2 machine makes it seem different to me than a watt bike or other non-rower.

I have no problem with it on the C2CTC if teammates use it and want to participate.

My opinion varied on this even as I typed, but that's where it landed. I agree with Greg on the net. A little wider, even.

[K_Cat]

Here is a technique video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH5HJ2QV2zg
I just don't see the similarity of movement. I don't doubt that the SkiErg builds arm, shoulder & back muscles, but so do cable machines (I have two cable machines. This poling motion could be done off either the lat bar cable or rowing cable of my UltraFlex machine. Not to mention a NordicTrack x-c machine.) Plus, rowing is supposedly 70% legs (Esther Lofgren, NY Times interview). Not much legs here. Certainly not as much as running or cycling or... rowing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's odd to lump the two C2 machines together just because they share a flywheel & PM.

Slides, dynamic, OTW meters... at least it's all rowing. Even the evil water rowers could be excused in the interests of inclusion, if they were listed in their own category. (I do realize that water rowers aren't C2, but if we really wanted to be inclusive...)

Anyway, the CTC is supposed to be fun?!

Peggy

[sander]

The C2CTC is for fun. No prizes. No money. No rewards points for a stay at the Ritz. It's cool how people around the world join in on behalf of their chosen team.

I do the CTC with Free Spirits because this team offers a surprisingly high level of inclusiveness, tolerance, positive feedback, encouragement, and respect.

When I see drama and 'brouhaha' starting up (FB, other forums, wherever), I tune out. Sorry, I get enough at work all week.

I'm fine with sliders, dynamics. I've tried them. They may give an edge especially on high rate pieces, but why would that bother me if competing with all age ranges doesn't?

Would hate for teammates to be discouraged from the fun spirit of the CTC. I walked by a skierg at a C2 tent yesterday. Its strong family resemblance to the erg and fact that it is a C2 machine makes it seem different to me than a watt bike or other non-rower.

I have no problem with it on the C2CTC if teammates use it and want to participate.

My opinion varied on this even as I typed, but that's where it landed. I agree with Greg on the net. A little wider, even.

Fully agree.

[CamiCrew]

Peggy I see what you mean. Guess I don't think of it as a rowing challenge, rather, the cross-team challenge for Concept 2 erg users. By producing another machine, C2 put the definition of erg into question. I'm sure they are pleased it is getting attention and more acceptance among rowers.

I see the CTC has added a Ski Erg team. Seems a good compromise - if you own both, you can enter two times. Just hope our members will still enter their FS time -- as Peggy says, the CTC isn't all that fun on one machine much less two.

p.s. Speaking of erg mods... I did a 5k in Shimano shoes last weekend. They are mounted on rockers to the C2 footplate, and look fabulous (which matters, I'm sure). The rockers make the stroke feel wonderful. If I had the $600 or so to pony up, I'd have to seriously consider joining the Shiny Blue Shoes CTC Team.

(bad joke, sorry)

[Jill]

p.s. Speaking of erg mods... I did a 5k in Shimano shoes last weekend. They are mounted on rockers to the C2 footplate, and look fabulous (which matters, I'm sure). The rockers make the stroke feel wonderful. If I had the $600 or so to pony up, I'd have to seriously consider joining the Shiny Blue Shoes CTC Team.

(bad joke, sorry)

Barbara, does having the shoes mounted on rockers limit how far you can lift your heels up during the recovery or doesn’t it make any difference? This movement seems to vary from person to person - a lift of about 2” for some ( it looks about that amount in a C2 technique video ) and more for others.

You never make bad jokes but if I can’t persuade you otherwise, then I’d better keep you company with this one.

As you are an Elvis fan, did you know that he was going to release a song called, “ Don’t You Step On My Blue Suede Shimonoes ‘, then thought, “ Nah. It’ll never catch on . “

Not usual for me to comment on something like this, but I would prefer to see a separate CTC for skiergs - it’s been reported that Daren Chandisingh is thinking of a revision/rewrite so perhaps that’s what he has in mind …

I can’t remember if this is how it’s always been or I’ve not noticed before ( more then likely ) but skiergs can now take part in all the usual C2 challenges ...

[Juergie]

I wonder how many of those opposed to the Skierg being included actually own or have even used one?

True, on first sight it looks really different. But let me tell you, most videos on the internet do not show how to use one properly. If done correctly, you use your legs a lot.

I use a rower and a Skierg on a regular basis. And I find the Skierg more challenging than the rower. I'm still not able to go as fast on the Skierg as I go rowing. And I do love them both a lot. And they share more similarities than just being build by the same company.

This said - since I use both - I would vote for including both. But I also wouldn't loose any sleep over separate statistics