New toy! (PM5 monitor)

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Daffy
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Daffy » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:18 am

JonT wrote:
Rob C wrote:That the beta's keep getting revised indicates they are working on something.
They are working on a new version of the ErgData app which will upload far more to the online logbook. I only know this because I have been asked to beta test the app too, but the combination of the fact that none of your rows will be logged in the current on-line logbook and the PM5 updates seem to be causing issues means I think I will politely decline. Not very public spirited of me, but this deos look like a bit of a nightmare.

Jon
Given the levels of frustration with the PM5 it is totally understandable why you would not want to participate.

I noticed the other day that the skierg has the PM5. This must be damaging that arm of the business too. I hope for everyone's sake that the fix/fixes are found soon.
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:34 pm

A word of warning to anyone thinking about buying a PM5 - don't unless you absolutely have to! Unfortunately, the problem is that the C2 shop no longer sells PM4s so this is probably bum advice.

I bought one in March 2015 and it has been nothing but trouble. The latest problem has been a refusal to store any workouts to either on board memory or a memory stick. Re-installing Firmware Version 19 has not worked nor has the beta firmware version nor has a hard re-set. Rowpro will work although every workout and workout segment results in one of two error messages (138-37 and 46-33) - I have got used to pressing "Continue" now!

I have now sent a snotty email to C2 support and I will update this post in due course. I don't know if this is par for the course or if I have been unlucky.

Richard U

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Rob C » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:05 pm

I'm in the situation that as my rows are not being recorded anywhere I have no incentive to even get on my rower.

My emails to support seem to now be getting ignored, or perhaps they have such a massive problem that support is overwhelmed? I wonder if my post "awaiting moderation" on the Concept 2 forum will fare much better?

Whatever the PM5 is not fit for purpose and should never have been released to the market :evil:
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by dr3do » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:54 pm

@ Bryce10 & Rob C

Are your batteries already down to about 80-85%? I really start to get into trouble (but each of our PM5's creates different issues, even both have same 19.9 firmware installed) on our both rowers, when batteries get into this range of "discharge".

Has one of you possibly saved interval sessions (e.g. infinity 20' or so) as favorite?

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:47 pm

Boris

The battery idea hadn't occurred to me. I did notice this morning after the latest round of problems that they were about 86%. From memory I think the current set have been in use for about a month but we have 3 users. I'll change them and see what happens.

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Richard U

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Rob C » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:07 am

Batteries are fine 95%. Haven't set anything as favourite so that all remains as the default.

Oh and don't waste time posting a critical post on the Concept 2 forum. It disappears. Which leaves support that has stopped working. Might be a very sniffy phone call or two on Monday.
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:18 pm

Thanks for all the input. Changing the batteries has reduced but not eliminated the error messages. Just in case low power had somehow corrupted the firmware I re-installed Version 19 but there was no visible effect. Fortunately Rowpro is still working so it is possible to workout even if the PM5 screen has an error message.

I'll report back on what if anything emerges from C2''s customer support. Interesting what Rob says about disappearing messages on the C2 forum - they cannot duck their legal liabilities If they are selling goods that are not of merchantable quality which could give them a very serious financial headache if the PM5 is generically faulty.

Watch this space.

Regards to all

Richard U

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:39 pm

A prompt reply from C2 Customer Support - here is the main part of the email:

"I am sorry to hear that you are experiencing some issues using the PM5. Both error codes that you have seen on the PM5 relate to the saving of workout data. Where specifically error 46 is an internal memory corruption.

There are two methods to fix this:

#1: Memory fix without losing data:
Connect the PM5 to a computer running the C2 Utility via USB cable. Transfer the data to spreadsheet, and the utility will notify you of the corrupt data and suggest rewriting to fix.

#2: Factory Reset:
If there are no concerns about losing data stored in memory, then: Perform a factory reset:
Hold down UNITS + DISPLAY and depress then release the RESET button. The screen will show "Setting Factory Defaults", then you may release the 2 buttons.
Memory and total meters will be cleared."

Method 1 did not work at all in that clicking on the option in the C2 Utility resulted in nothing - suggesting that the data was well and truly corrupted. However, Method 2 did work i.e. a factory reset. Since doing so there have been two users both connecting to the PM5 via Rowpro and no problems. I tried fixed distances, workouts with intervals and a Just Row and all were o.k.

What was disappointing is that C2 did not provide any hint of why or how the data became corrupted in the first place. I do wonder if a small fall off in current delivered by the batteries might be responsible in which case regular replacement regardless of the apparent state of charge is the way to go. I am thinking of two sets of rechargeables swapped, say, fortnightly.

Finally, to us addicts it is very unsettling not to have a working C2! If there are any more problems I will provide an update. At least we now know that Error 46 is a data corruption issue and that a factory reset works. As for the data loss - backups, copies, etc are vital!!

Regards

Richard Underwood

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by dr3do » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:27 pm

Richard, do you use the favorites feature? Means… do you save certain sessions as favorites? If yes, maybe consider to check this one. I had issues with favorites in the past.

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:21 pm

Boris - I haven't used PM5 favourites at all which is probably just as well. Since we started using Rowpro we use the custom workout feature within the software. I used to use favourites or the custom list when we had a PM4 which was rock solid. I recall reading somewhere that this feature in the PM5 could be problematic and it may have been your post so we have avoided using it. The factory reset I described in my previous post is still holding good.

An interesting aspect of Rowpro is that a custom workout used to suffer from quite a lot of latency i.e. delay when switching from, say, workout to easy. There would be an uneasy pause while waiting for the computer and PM5 to catch up with each other. Since the reset that gap has almost vanished so I can time accelerating into the next hard segment as accurately as I used to. I am even wondering if there has been a slight corruption issue in the PM5 since purchase last March which may have now been cured (maybe?)

It is still early days ..........

Regards

Richard U

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by JonT » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:55 pm

It struck me while rowing today and thinking about all the PM5 problems that it's odd that Concept are developing new features which they are beta testing when they clearly haven't actually ironed out the problems with the product as it stands today. Doesn't feel like they have their priorities right to me.

I know that if our systems weren't working I wouldn't be asking our users to test out some new features instead of fixing today's problems :evil:
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by dr3do » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:22 pm

dr3do wrote:I had issues with favorites in the past.
Had a very nice phone call with C2 (USA). The developer confirmed me, that there's a bug with "Favorites which contain undefined rest" – I used that quite much. It will be fixed with the next release. ^O^


For those who generally issues with their PM's, try this, just for your clarification…

Take out the batteries and pull hard (no need to break any record back, just some good pace like 2:00) two-three times. The performance monitor need come/light up quite fast, after the first or second pull. But for sure afterthe third one.

One of our two rowers works fine. Comes up immediately. The other one not that good. Sometimes even not after ten pulls and sometimes only after 4-5 pulls. I'll call C2 (Switzerland) and ask for a base and coil replacement.

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:13 pm

The factory reset of the PM5 is still holding good which is good news.

On a point of clarification I am sure that when I checked the C2 On-line shop there were no PM4s on sale but they are definitely there as of today (?) - could be old age creeping up ..... I am very tempted to revert despite the additional cost.

I do wonder if C2 would have been better off in developing a plug-in interface for iOS or Android plus a mounting arm - a bit like Ergdata but with a direct feed from the drive - just a thought.

Regards

Richard U

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by dr3do » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:04 pm

Bryce10 wrote:The factory reset of the PM5 is still holding good which is good news.
This is cool. 8)


I had bad luck today. As I started my session I checked battery level, which was 86%. I rowed 2x20'. The first 20' was saved without any issue, the second 20' not – it's not on PM5 internal memory and not on USB stick, just gone. PM5 stuck/freezed/crashed while attempting to save. Had to reset it. Checked battery again… 74%. So… battery is weak. Need to change it tomorrow.

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:57 am

That has happened to me and it is most annoying. I don't think the battery level indicator is very accurate - I have noticed it down one day and back up the next ....... I am planning to change the batteries regardless - say, on the first of each month. The price is well worth the saving in frustration!

Regards

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:57 am

That has happened to me and it is most annoying. I don't think the battery level indicator is very accurate - I have noticed it down one day and back up the next ....... I am planning to change the batteries regardless - say, on the first of each month. The price is well worth the saving in frustration!

Regards

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by dr3do » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:33 pm

Bryce10 wrote:I don't think the battery level indicator is very accurate - I have noticed it down one day and back up the next .......
That's a little bit in the nature of batteries. Without load they recover quite quick and can show up high voltages, which then leads to misinterpretation. Under load then, they break down quite quick.

The monitor itself takes only about 45-55 mA, depending on battery voltage (the lower voltage, the more mA). BLE and ANT+ do not add much to power consumption. But the USB stick, it drains a lot… 100-200mA. :shock: The generator produces only up to 120mA @ 4V. For my understanding a) USB (stick) sucks too much energy for this generator or b) the generator from "good old times" is too weak for the power consumption of a USB stick.

I don't know/understand why they haven't put in a stronger generator. :-k

My feedback/suggestion to C2 was…
  • A session must be saved under any circumstances. We really need to build in some safety/failsafe mechanism.

    Possibly some sort of usage counter or/and if battery level drops during a workout to a certain level (<80%), user needs to get a battery change suggestion for the next workout, as battery will recover without load and always show nice/good level at the beginning of a session. Or, if battery is below a certain level/voltage, e.g. during a session, PM5 shouldn't try at all to use USB stick, instead failover to internal memory.

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Bryce10 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:00 pm

The current drained by a USB Stick is astonishing - thanks for the info. - I wonder if that would still be the case if, say, I was to plug in a powered hard drive i.e one with a separate power brick. Overkill I know for the memory requirement but anything to avoid the problem. Interestingly we haven't plugged a stick into our PM5 since the factory re-set and it has behaved itself impeccably - just relying on Rowpro.

Regards

Richard U

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Recess » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:27 am

Just an add on thought for this. I've had my PM5 for a long time now, and haven't replaced the batteries once. I figure this is because it's always plugged in to the computer, and gets its power from there.

So, what happens to your data saving if you use power from a computer instead of relying on the batteries. No need to use RowPro, just keep the USB cable plugged in for power. Does that change things?

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Rob C » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:02 pm

Does the PM5 get a charge from a USB port?
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by dr3do » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:07 pm

Rob C wrote:Does the PM5 get a charge from a USB port?
No. But it can be powered* just by USB… as long as batteries are inside. If no (good) batteries are inside, it will beef around that the batteries have not enough power and therefore the usage of the USB stick will be disabled.

*= tried it today with my phone charger and the matching USB cable.

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Rob C » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:13 pm

Battery cover problems for PM5 manufactured before 14/4/2015

http://www.concept2.co.uk/service/monit ... uct-notice

Edit: UK website link added - If you have an account on the UK Concept 2 shop, look in PM5 parts and the battery door may show up as a free order part ....
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by JonT » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:20 pm

I've not had any of the symptoms described on the link, but I have a "Rev A" battery door so I've taken a free replacement. Thanks for posting this, I would never have seen it myself. :fsbgrin:
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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by dr3do » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:00 pm

I had in the past two month much trouble with our PM5 (three pieces). C2 (Switzerland) have been helpful, as they e.g. offered me to exchange the hardware (PM5) – well, the hardware is fine, the software/firmware is the problem.

Thankfully to a free spirit member I had the opportunity to get the e-mail address of C2 development (USA) and contacted them. I introduced myself and offered support in testing. I reported every single error/issue and put lot effort into creating detailed error reports and testing. We had about 30-40 e-mails and even a phone call. Nothing has been fixed. Nothing. Mostly I got replies like "but I suppose there could be a bug" or "the bug is duly noted".

Yesterday e.g. I lost (it hasn't been saved as I finished it) again a session of 30'.

So… I decided now not to log (http://log.concept2.com/log.asp) any more as I have enough of this shit. ](*,)

Instead I keep track of my workouts only using my watch (ANT+).

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Re: New toy! (PM5 monitor)

Post by Paul Victory » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:35 pm

Sorry to hear you're having such a frustrating time Boris.
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