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Free Spirits CTC Participation and Leaderboard

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:25 pm
by Rodger
Hi Free Spirits,

I like lists and numbers. And I think many of you do, too. So I made some more. :)

This document registers our CTC participation in 2013.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing

Nice to know: 96 Free Spirits have taken part in a CTC this year. :!:
(That is, unless members have used multiple names on the CTC website. The only double name I came across was Kirby’s lwt and hwt variations, so I merged these in the table. Is anyone else using multiple names?)

Members with a maximum of 9 participations up to August (this includes the one-day Carole Mac Memorial in February): ^O^ ^O^ ^O^
• alan wisniewski (H)
• Andrew Stanway (H)
• billwright (H)
• Liefcat (H)

Members with 8 participations: =D> =D> =D>
• Amanda Behrendt (F)
• David Plumb (L)
• Paul Gould (H)
• Philip Price (L)
• SanderJRoosendaal (L)
• Thomas W-P (H)

As there is a competitive streak in most of us, I have also used a scoring system to determine a ranking, based on the boats that members were in. I could have simply taken the points that the CTC awards to the boats. The drawback is that this is dependent on the total number of boats floated. In a popular month/challenge, this can run up to 70, in unpopular ones this is closer to 30. I would argue that participants in those unpopular challenges, mustn’t get punished for that (if anything, they should be rewarded). Another drawback of the CTC boat scoring system is that the last boat only gets a single point. I feel this doesn’t do justice to the effort put in.

So the ‘method’ I used was to award 100 points to members in the boat that finished first in the CTC. And then count back from there. So, if the first FS boat has finished third in a challenge, all 5 rowers in that boat get 98 points. The last FS boat may have finished as 54th. Those rowers still get 47 points. This way, participation is awarded more generously and all challenges are treated equally (as long as no challenge exceeds 100 boats, which I don’t think has ever happened; haven’t checked them all).

Unfortunately, failing to get in a floating boat results in 0 points. #-o But we could always award a prize for persistence against adversity (most 0-scores). :D Perhaps I have a decent chance there. :roll: (It still counts as participation, of course.)

This scoring system gives as a current top 10 for 2013:
1. Liefcat (H) 851
2. Amanda Behrendt (F) 688
3. SanderJRoosendaal (L) 681
4. Rachel Harris (F) 669
5. Odd G. Aarrestad (L) 652
6. alan wisniewski (H) 651
7. Paul Gould (H) 588
8. Andrew Stanway (H) 584
9. billwright (H) 575
10. David Plumb (L) 571

Unless Erik decides to quit rowing tomorrow, I think the points winner for 2013 is pretty much decided. ^O^ ^O^
I hope my own 81st spot is pathetic enough :oops: to convince you that I tried to find a scoring system that’s fair.

What do you think? Is this a good idea? Do you see any value in this? Could it stimulate CTC participation? Is it any fun? Do you agree with the scoring method? Do you care? :?:

If there is enough interest, I’m happy to update the sheet every month.
In theory, we could go back in years and create an all-time Free Spirits CTC ranking list (but that’s quite an undertaking).

As all information is taken directly from the freely accessible CTC website, I wouldn’t think anyone will have any objections to seeing their names in this list, but maybe I’m wrong. If so: just let me know.

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:53 pm
by Stan
Interesting exercise. I suggest you run with it for a while and see how much interest there is. Many thanks for your efforts.
For the record I have taken part in every ctc since it was pointed out to me by Michelle in April 06, so I have only missed the first 4 of them. I think there may have only been 1 or 2 occasions where I have failed to be in a scoring boat. The records may say more, but this would be due to the fact that when somebody changes teams, all the points they scored are retrospectively transferred to the new team if they stick with the same name they registered with. Because of that, a boat that was originally registered as floating could become non floating sometime later.

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:26 pm
by billwright
Sounds like a winner to me in terms of getting people to participate in the CTC. The trick is now to alert all FS to the item.

Bill :fswink: :fswink:

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:03 pm
by Stan
I was not able to access your document as google wants a password. Is it possible to make it readable to the general public?

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:27 pm
by Rodger
Stan wrote:The records may say more, but this would be due to the fact that when somebody changes teams, all the points they scored are retrospectively transferred to the new team if they stick with the same name they registered with. Because of that, a boat that was originally registered as floating could become non floating sometime later.
I didn't know this. The 2013 list should be okay though, I think. :?: And if I make sure I update in the first couple of days after a month's end that should not be a problem in the future. But that all-time list is probably a bridge too far then.
Stan wrote:I was not able to access your document as google wants a password. Is it possible to make it readable to the general public?
I thought I had, but apparently not... Thanks for mentioning, it should be accessible now.

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:11 pm
by Stan
Thanks Rodger, I can see it now :D

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:25 pm
by plummy
Nice work Rodger, and kudos for your thinking. I haven't had any real time to look at the chart owing to my ongoing laptop crises this weekend.

Looks great at first glance though =D>

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:53 pm
by Richard Thomas
As a newish team member I think it's a great idea and seems a pretty fair scoring system to me Rodger. :)

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:24 pm
by strider77
Great idea Rodger-I like new ideas :D 8) =D>

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:52 pm
by Liefcat
Yes, very interesting idea, Rodger :!: :idea: And a tremendous job you have done working with all those numbers :!: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Though Free Spirits are not being elitist at the core, I think you are right, Roder, that that competitive spirit is still hidden inside somewhere... :fswink: And as Stan has already stated on various occasions, there is still quite a mismatch between the number of FSs on the Meter Board and the actual participation in ctc - we have got new participants in the ctc "madness" - but still 96 as you have counted seems to be a number that could be a good deal greater if motivation and team spirit or whatever could play together in a beautiful symphony :!: :D :D

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:00 pm
by Liefcat
Rodger wrote:
Stan wrote:The records may say more, but this would be due to the fact that when somebody changes teams, all the points they scored are retrospectively transferred to the new team if they stick with the same name they registered with. Because of that, a boat that was originally registered as floating could become non floating sometime later.
I didn't know this. The 2013 list should be okay though, I think. :?: And if I make sure I update in the first couple of days after a month's end that should not be a problem in the future. But that all-time list is probably a bridge too far then.
Yes, that´s right, there is some kind of Nachträglichkeit in that business... And I think that "our" Jason was well aware of that, so he seems to have chosen a new name for his RP affiliation, in this way his earlier FS participation will remain FS :!: :D :D

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:15 pm
by Rodger
Thanks guys, I take that as encouragement to continue.

I updated the list with September's results: 40 rowers (best since March), 7 boats filled.
There are four 'new' names (for the CTC in 2013, that is :wink: ), good to see: Michelle, Lesley, Damon and Phil. :fsbgrin:
That makes 100 FS CTC rowers in 2013 now.

Erik, Alan, Stan and Bill still are on a maximum of 10 CTC's this year. =D> =D> =D>

In the top 10, the names haven't changed since last month.
However, Plummy made a big jump from 10th to 7th spot. ^O^
And Amanda dropped four positions. :shock:
(I always wanted to be a sports commentator :lol: )

NO._Prev.____________________________CTC's____Points
1___1___Liefcat (H)____________________10________929
2___3___SanderJRoosendaal (L)__________9________776
3___4___Rachel Harris (F)_______________8________764
4___5___Odd G. Aarrestad (L)____________8________718
5___6___alan wisniewski (H)____________10________717
6___2___Amanda Behrendt (F)___________8________688
7__10___David Plumb (L) _______________9________649
8___8___Andrew Stanway (H)___________10________646
9___7___Paul Gould (H)_________________9________636
10__9___billwright (H)_________________10________619

The complete list is here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

If you have any comments, suggestions or just banter, please feel free :fssmile:

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:52 pm
by JonathanA
This is excellent.
Rodger wrote:Thanks guys, I take that as encouragement to continue.
I hope you do.

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:26 pm
by Rodger
The ranking is now updated with October's results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

Some highlights:
- 70 participants this month;
- which is the highest of the year (as it should in this Free Spirits chosen challenge for Gaye McOnie); =D>
- all found a boat; :D
- 17 of these 70 members had not rowed a CTC for FS in 2013 before; (do come back 8) )
- 4 Free Spirits still have a 100% participation this year (Erik, Alan, Stan & Bill); =D>
- That's three more if we would take the one day CTC on February 14th out of the equation (Sander, David & Philip); =D>
- Erik still stands firmly at the top of the ranking; ^O^
- Rachel and Sander are on 2 and 3. ^O^

As always, comments or suggestions are very welcome. :fsgrin:

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:54 am
by Stan
Thanks for the update Rodger :D

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:13 pm
by webberg
Rodger, how about you use your data analysis skills to help us establish an annual Free Spirits challenge?

Thinking aloud a bit, we pick a challenge at the beginning of the season, perhaps by vote, so long as it's an achievable piece for the majority of the team.

We then have a table of FS who have attempted the challenge over the season.

Perhaps we award 1 point for having a go at all. Then a scale for having more than one go. Say 2 points for the next attempt as long as it's within say a month and quicker/further. Max would be perhaps 5 points.

Extra points for achieving a 5% better time/distance, 10% and so on. Benchmark time/distance to be say an average of your last 5 attempts at the distance?

Extra points for doing the piece each month.

Obviously the set up is self validating but once that's done it should be fun?

Obviously also a lot of work potentially. Just an idea though to create something like a metreboard but without doing all those metres! :?:

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:37 pm
by Paul Victory
Rodger wrote:So the ‘method’ I used was to award 100 points to members in the boat that finished first in the CTC. And then count back from there. So, if the first FS boat has finished third in a challenge, all 5 rowers in that boat get 98 points. The last FS boat may have finished as 54th. Those rowers still get 47 points. This way, participation is awarded more generously and all challenges are treated equally (as long as no challenge exceeds 100 boats, which I don’t think has ever happened; haven’t checked them all).

Unfortunately, failing to get in a floating boat results in 0 points. #-o But we could always award a prize for persistence against adversity (most 0-scores). :D Perhaps I have a decent chance there. :roll: (It still counts as participation, of course.)
Hi Rodger

I think what you're doing is a great idea. If I can suggest just one tweak, why don't you continue to award points for non floating boats? Positions are still awarded in the CTC for non floating boats and by doing this, you would be rewarding everyone who participates.

Paul V

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:12 pm
by Rodger
Thanks for your input. :fsgrin:

Graham - I will answer your suggestion later (and if there's something there, perhaps in a new thread).

Paul - I think you are right in that participation without getting floated isn't awarded well enough with the current method. I thought of your solution but it feels a bit random to me. I feel a boat can only be ranked properly if there's 5 rowers including at least one female and one lwt. But if others echo your suggestion, I can be persuaded.

Perhaps a better way to solve this, is to award a maximum of 200 points per challenge: 100 for participation (including non-floaters) plus the maximum of 100 as it is now. What do you think? :?:

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:28 pm
by Paul Victory
Hi Rodger

Your suggested approach sounds fine. Another option would be to award half points for non floating boats. I also think the system works fine as is, but still feel that it would be nice to give more recognition to those of us who are not as quick as others (or not as quick as we used to be :roll: ).

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:24 pm
by Wolfmiester
As the CTC is more about participation than score (althouh we all aspire to individual goals) I'd like to see the same score for floating/non floating. It's not anyones fault that they miss a hw/lw/fe every now and then. But perhaps I'm missing the point, and if so I apologise :-)

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:45 pm
by Rodger
Wolfmiester wrote:As the CTC is more about participation than score (althouh we all aspire to individual goals) I'd like to see the same score for floating/non floating. It's not anyones fault that they miss a hw/lw/fe every now and then. But perhaps I'm missing the point, and if so I apologise :-)
In the first version of the spreadsheet, the ranking was based on the number of participations first and points scored second. Downside of that is that it makes the list much less dynamic. So, I soon changed that. I doubt if more than one or two people saw that early version.

And while I agree that participation is most important, I also feel that participation is valuable really if it's done with some sort of serious effort. If time and fitness permits I want to try to reach the highest possible boat, or at least get floated. For me, one of the reasons I made this spreadsheet is because it could have a motivating effect to get the best out of myself. I'm hoping that others may want to use this in the same way. If it can motivate more members to: 1. participate and 2. put some extra effort in, that would be great. If the scoring system needs some tweaking to achieve that, I'll gladly do that.

But I could see how for others, only the column that counts the number of participations is useful. Maybe that's your position then, Steve? No apologies needed. :D And others still, will not be interested in this at all. That's okay, too. :fsgrin:

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:46 pm
by webberg
If one of the purposes of the list is to encourage PARTICIPATION, then it makes perfect sense to reward those who do participate but who do not get floated, with some form of credit.

The issue of higher reward for being in a faster boat is one that exercises me a little as being potentially contrary to the ethos of Free Spirits, which is to encourage people to row period; it's not necessary to row far or fast.

Having said that, the CTC is a purely voluntary action that can be indulged in each month, or not, as whim, fitness, motivation strikes. Those who do enter probably use the list discussed here as some form of motivation. So long as that is healthy and not at the expense of others, it's perhaps little different from the MB?

So I think my position is that so long as all participants are rewarded this could be a useful addition to the motivational tools the club has.

If I had the skills (and time) I would personally track improvements in the various benchmarks as well. For example, if you have a 30 minute distance of say 6,800 (average of last 3 attempts) and then achieve say 7,000, then that's 2.94% better. You would score on my list 294 points. Add together all the improvements for all chosen benchmarks over a season and we should get to a table which has those who have worked hard at or near the top. This appeals to me because you're effectively competing against yourself.

Perhaps we use the Nonathlon benchmarks?

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:00 pm
by plummy
I am happy to encourage anything to give a bit of a refresh or spice to the status quo and applaud any efforts.

Graham - re awarding points for improvement - what is the initial benchmark we set ourselves - best time/distance ever, seasons best? My worry is if based on PB's it will more or less eliminate those of us who peaked a few years ago or age is now playing against us and if based on a seasonal basis, how do you legislate from sandbagging at the start of the season i.e. putting in a slow one to maximise improvement pointage? I'll put my thinking cap on later.....

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:14 pm
by Rodger
I have now added a second sheet (v2) to the document. In this, every participation is awarded with 100 points straight away, and extra points according to the position of the boat with a maximum of another 100 (as before). If members are equal on points, the number of CTC's takes precedence.

For comparison purposes, column B gives the ranking of the original scoring method.
This favours participation more than the previous method.

Is this better? Let me hear what you think. :fsgrin:

Re: CTC Participation list and ranking

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:44 pm
by strider77
Rodger,

I appreciate all the work you have put in and personally I prefer sheet 2 as I am now No.2 not No.5 :lol: :wink:

I believe King Erik has earned his No.1 place on both sheets =D>