Anyone had any PBs recently?
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- Gooner Neil
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For my 2ps worth I would say "yes". As a science teacher I can think of two reasons:
Physics: It takes more energy to accelerate than to main a constant speed so you are wasting vital joules in speeding up the wheel at each split.
Biology: Your heart cannot sustain the higher levels for as long as the lower levels. So by going fast/slow you are tiring the heart more than you would going medium/medium. I can row at 130bpm for a LONG time. But at 180+ I know I have only a few minutes.
Evidence: Kelly Holmes - two gold medals where all laps run in even splits.
Physics: It takes more energy to accelerate than to main a constant speed so you are wasting vital joules in speeding up the wheel at each split.
Biology: Your heart cannot sustain the higher levels for as long as the lower levels. So by going fast/slow you are tiring the heart more than you would going medium/medium. I can row at 130bpm for a LONG time. But at 180+ I know I have only a few minutes.
Evidence: Kelly Holmes - two gold medals where all laps run in even splits.
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- johnglynn
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As Bangers and Thomas W-P say it's more efficient (mechanically) to row at a constant speed .
Taking a 1km race completed in 4 minutes . 2:00/500 pace . One going steady, and one doing a slow 500 then a fast 500
Going steady
Finishing time : 4:00 mins
Average pace : 2:00/500
Average Watts : 202.5463
Doing 500m at 2:10/500 and then finishing with a fast 500m at 1:50/500
Finishing time : 4:00 mins
Average pace : 2:00/500
Average Watts : 206.8152
The overall Watts (Work) are a bit higher on the slow+fast one . 206.8 watts is equivalent to 1:59.2/500 pace if going steady.
---------------
Math's for the slow 500m + fast 500m
First 500
159.3081 watts average
Second 500
262.9601 watts average
Simple Average Watts = (159.3081 + 262.9601) / 2 = 211.1341
But the simple calculation ignores the time your rowing slow and fast.
The slow 500m takes 130 seconds (2:10min) to row and the fast 500m takes 110 seconds (1:50min) to row, so adding these times gives the true figure
Time Adjusted Average Watts = ( (159.3081*(130/120)) + (262.9601*(110/120)) ) / 2 = 206.8152
Taking a 1km race completed in 4 minutes . 2:00/500 pace . One going steady, and one doing a slow 500 then a fast 500
Going steady
Finishing time : 4:00 mins
Average pace : 2:00/500
Average Watts : 202.5463
Doing 500m at 2:10/500 and then finishing with a fast 500m at 1:50/500
Finishing time : 4:00 mins
Average pace : 2:00/500
Average Watts : 206.8152
The overall Watts (Work) are a bit higher on the slow+fast one . 206.8 watts is equivalent to 1:59.2/500 pace if going steady.
---------------
Math's for the slow 500m + fast 500m
First 500
159.3081 watts average
Second 500
262.9601 watts average
Simple Average Watts = (159.3081 + 262.9601) / 2 = 211.1341
But the simple calculation ignores the time your rowing slow and fast.
The slow 500m takes 130 seconds (2:10min) to row and the fast 500m takes 110 seconds (1:50min) to row, so adding these times gives the true figure
Time Adjusted Average Watts = ( (159.3081*(130/120)) + (262.9601*(110/120)) ) / 2 = 206.8152
- johnglynn
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The reason I say (mechanically) in the above post is because the human body is not a perfect machine.
I find I go faster overall if I sprint at the very end, as lactic acid and similar things only hurt you for 200metres then, rather then say 2,000meters if I sprinted at the start .
Having said that for 2K races and lower, I sprint for the 1st 5 strokes . I've read things pro and against this . But the current World Champion Graham Benton does this, so there can't be too much wrong it it.
I find I go faster overall if I sprint at the very end, as lactic acid and similar things only hurt you for 200metres then, rather then say 2,000meters if I sprinted at the start .
Having said that for 2K races and lower, I sprint for the 1st 5 strokes . I've read things pro and against this . But the current World Champion Graham Benton does this, so there can't be too much wrong it it.
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Neil,Gooner Neil wrote:Sorry for being dumb, are you saying that rowing at say 500m for 2.05 pace is more sustainable/energy efficient than 2.00 x 500 v 2.10 x 500?
I hope I'm not confusing anybody too much.
What I was trying to get across is that in general the most efficient way to row to a target distance/time is to row it at a constant split. ( except near the end of a piece when you can blast away with whatever you have left)
eg. If you want to row 5000m in 20 mins, row it at a constant average of 2:00/500.
There is little point in rowing say the first 2500m at 1:50/500, then the last 2500m at 2:10/500m. This is because you will have to provide more power (watts) than you would have done if you rowed at a constant rate, and you will gain nothing as your av. will still be 2:00/500m
This is all due to the mathematical relationship between speed and power. On the erg if you double your speed the power you have to provide goes up by the cube ie 8 times!!
eg speed 4:00/500m = 25 W, 2:00/500m = 200W
The subject of how how fast and how sustainable various rows are is a whole new ball game, and I can see me digging myself into a bigger hole!
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John,
Sorry, by the time I posted my response, you had already answered Neil.
On the subject of those initial strokes, you're correct GB blasts away with no apparent ill effects. I tend to put the hammer down form the first 8- 10 strokes before settling to race pace. As one coach says 'Use them or lose them'
Sorry, by the time I posted my response, you had already answered Neil.
On the subject of those initial strokes, you're correct GB blasts away with no apparent ill effects. I tend to put the hammer down form the first 8- 10 strokes before settling to race pace. As one coach says 'Use them or lose them'
Roger B
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The principle of specificity comes in as well.
I do most of my rows at constant splits all the way through up to 2 hours.
So I'm OK at that - body has adapted to it.
Ask me to do intervals or sprints, body doesn't like it!
I guess reverse is also true.
So if you want to row long pieces - train with them!
Would be great to be good at all of them.
I do most of my rows at constant splits all the way through up to 2 hours.
So I'm OK at that - body has adapted to it.
Ask me to do intervals or sprints, body doesn't like it!
I guess reverse is also true.
So if you want to row long pieces - train with them!
Would be great to be good at all of them.
Paul
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- JanetS
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Do I stick my 2 penny's worth in a this point & risk the 'sucking eggs thing'? Oh what the heck...... Ignore if you already know...Bangers wrote:John,
Sorry, by the time I posted my response, you had already answered Neil.
On the subject of those initial strokes, you're correct GB blasts away with no apparent ill effects. I tend to put the hammer down form the first 8- 10 strokes before settling to race pace. As one coach says 'Use them or lose them'
Yep - you can do that without building up much lactic acid - the first 10-15secs or so mostly utilise stored ATP/CP whcih can produce energy without lactic acid building up - much beyond that and you're into anaerobic glycolosis - which does produce lactic acid quickly, and that isn't much help at the beginning of a long row.
The really tricky bit is determing just where your anaerobic threashold is - useful when determining the best heartrate to go at in training. I've read lots of articles in the past relating heart rate to power output as a way of determing it (the relationship goes non-linear at the threshold) but it all seems a bit of a black art & yet such a useful piece of info to have if your putting together a long term training programme......... (which I need to do if I'm going to make any real headway!)
I think I'll go quiet now - that's taxed my memory sufficiently for tonight.
(I shall now wait to be prodded by those who know more... )
48yo, weight... let's just say heavyweight & leave it at that.
PB:
Targets: start erging again & lose weight
PB:
Targets: start erging again & lose weight
- Gooner Neil
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60 minutes
I finally got round to doing a 60 minutes time trial.
Started off around 1:55 pace, but could not sustain it. Ended up with 15,404 meters (split 7811/7593), which puts me 7th of 92 in my age category.
Next stop is the half marathon, as soon as I get some bubblewrap (see earlier discussion on this topic).
Paul
Started off around 1:55 pace, but could not sustain it. Ended up with 15,404 meters (split 7811/7593), which puts me 7th of 92 in my age category.
Next stop is the half marathon, as soon as I get some bubblewrap (see earlier discussion on this topic).
Paul
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Janet wrote
Seriously though you're correct that establishing your anaerobic threshold is extremely useful.
I have found that the C2 training guide method of relating %MHR to the various training bands has worked pretty well for me. However what is important is that each individual establishes, as accurately as possible, Resting Heart Rate (RHR) and Maximum Heart Rate(MHR).
Forget using 220 - age as your MHR as this is too inaccurate. A method of establishing the correct figure is also in the training guide, but should only be carried out if you are fully fit. The method outlined requires an individual to run the test until they 'Blow'.
Another way is to use somebody such as Fletcher Sports Sciences who can organise a visit to, I think, Warwick Uni where for around £70 you can get a basic physiological profile which includes amongst other things VO2 max and anaerobic threshold.
Hey and you thought this was all supposed to be fun
Hi Janet have you got a degree in human biology/physiology? I figured either that or you're a sales rep for a large Creatine manufacturerThe really tricky bit is determing just where your anaerobic threashold is - useful when determining the best heartrate to go at in training. I've read lots of articles in the past relating heart rate to power output as a way of determing it (the relationship goes non-linear at the threshold) but it all seems a bit of a black art & yet such a useful piece of info to have if your putting together a long term training programme......... (which I need to do if I'm going to make any real headway!)
I think I'll go quiet now - that's taxed my memory sufficiently for tonight.
(I shall now wait to be prodded by those who know more... )
Seriously though you're correct that establishing your anaerobic threshold is extremely useful.
I have found that the C2 training guide method of relating %MHR to the various training bands has worked pretty well for me. However what is important is that each individual establishes, as accurately as possible, Resting Heart Rate (RHR) and Maximum Heart Rate(MHR).
Forget using 220 - age as your MHR as this is too inaccurate. A method of establishing the correct figure is also in the training guide, but should only be carried out if you are fully fit. The method outlined requires an individual to run the test until they 'Blow'.
Another way is to use somebody such as Fletcher Sports Sciences who can organise a visit to, I think, Warwick Uni where for around £70 you can get a basic physiological profile which includes amongst other things VO2 max and anaerobic threshold.
Hey and you thought this was all supposed to be fun
Roger B
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I've done a fair bit of rowing coaching over the past few years - up to Bronze ARA which gives quite a bit of background + I'm a chemistry teacher so this sort of stuff tends to stick in my brain!Bangers wrote: Hi Janet have you got a degree in human biology/physiology? I figured either that or you're a sales rep for a large Creatine manufacturer
Seriously though you're correct that establishing your anaerobic threshold is extremely useful.
The 220-age I gave up on ages ago as it was so obviously way out & I think I 'blow' far too easily at the mo to risk that way! Interesting that the training bands in the C2 literature worked well for you, I think I lost the C2 training guide ages ago - sounds like it's time to seek out a copy......I have found that the C2 training guide method of relating %MHR to the various training bands has worked pretty well for me. However what is important is that each individual establishes, as accurately as possible, Resting Heart Rate (RHR) and Maximum Heart Rate(MHR).
Forget using 220 - age as your MHR as this is too inaccurate. A method of establishing the correct figure is also in the training guide, but should only be carried out if you are fully fit. The method outlined requires an individual to run the test until they 'Blow'.
Can't see getting that past the hubbyAnother way is to use somebody such as Fletcher Sports Sciences who can organise a visit to, I think, Warwick Uni where for around £70 you can get a basic physiological profile which includes amongst other things VO2 max and anaerobic threshold.
Yeh!Hey and you thought this was all supposed to be fun
I find if I can be mentally sorting the science while on the ergo it detracts from the pain.... (and if you believe that..... )
48yo, weight... let's just say heavyweight & leave it at that.
PB:
Targets: start erging again & lose weight
PB:
Targets: start erging again & lose weight
- JanetS
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Bangers wrote:Janet Method 1) 220- age..... no good.
2) Ruled out.....Blow up too easily.
3) Mean hubby won't part with £70.
Suggestion : Stand in a dark room, get hubby to creep up behind you and yell aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
I think you may have something there......
More seriously - this looks an interesting way of assessing it:
http://heartzones.com/_pdf/The_Foster_T ... d_test.pdf
Uses ability to speak during exercise.......
48yo, weight... let's just say heavyweight & leave it at that.
PB:
Targets: start erging again & lose weight
PB:
Targets: start erging again & lose weight
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CTC Challenge PB
Another Day another PB ( Bloody Chuffed - ( he goes into a coma ) )
Nigel Ferris: Nigel, I took you advice on technique, I dropped my stroke rate ( which I have been working on for the last week ) and have place more emphasis on the stroke using my legs and keeping the momentum going through to my arms ( then of course there is the breathing ). I have just managed a 30min trawl and did 8,565 ( sent PSims the row file for evidence ). I started off at 1:45.9 moving down to about 1:42.7 for the last 6 minutes ( wished I had pushed that little bit harder at the beginning - may have got more metres - thats life I suppose ). The last 6 mins were the worst. Heart rate started at about 148 for the 1st 6, then 155, 157, 158 and finally 171 for the last 6. Made it in the end though.
Janet / Bangers: Heart rate zones: I have always wondered about what my maximum would be ( so I could possibly push myself that little bit extra ) - Any ideas - as I do not always believe what I see on the net. My resting pulse is 43, Age is 39 / 40 and I can sustain a HR of about 150-160 for about an hour. Just curious as to what my max would be.
Cheers
Rob
Nigel Ferris: Nigel, I took you advice on technique, I dropped my stroke rate ( which I have been working on for the last week ) and have place more emphasis on the stroke using my legs and keeping the momentum going through to my arms ( then of course there is the breathing ). I have just managed a 30min trawl and did 8,565 ( sent PSims the row file for evidence ). I started off at 1:45.9 moving down to about 1:42.7 for the last 6 minutes ( wished I had pushed that little bit harder at the beginning - may have got more metres - thats life I suppose ). The last 6 mins were the worst. Heart rate started at about 148 for the 1st 6, then 155, 157, 158 and finally 171 for the last 6. Made it in the end though.
Janet / Bangers: Heart rate zones: I have always wondered about what my maximum would be ( so I could possibly push myself that little bit extra ) - Any ideas - as I do not always believe what I see on the net. My resting pulse is 43, Age is 39 / 40 and I can sustain a HR of about 150-160 for about an hour. Just curious as to what my max would be.
Cheers
Rob
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HR
Rob - I have had HR up to 194.
220 - age is a "safe" limit used by cardio machine manufacturers.
I posted a "ramp test" previously, which you will also find on the concept2.co.uk site somewhere. It involves rowing at a set work rate in watts, meauring HR, then upping it by 25W, repeat until you "blow". be warned it's a nasty test (you might even black out at the end) but it gives a true max.
Personally, I won't be doing this - I just use the highest I've ever got.
At age 43, 220 minus 43 gives 177 which is WAY off.
I find sustaining 145 - 150 for long rows feels comfortable.
When I am busting a PB, I aim for 160 - 165.
Last 10 -15 mins I push it to 170 - 175.
Right at the end, if I have the strength, I get it into the 180s.
Bigger guys may be different - after all elephants have slower HRs than mice
220 - age is a "safe" limit used by cardio machine manufacturers.
I posted a "ramp test" previously, which you will also find on the concept2.co.uk site somewhere. It involves rowing at a set work rate in watts, meauring HR, then upping it by 25W, repeat until you "blow". be warned it's a nasty test (you might even black out at the end) but it gives a true max.
Personally, I won't be doing this - I just use the highest I've ever got.
At age 43, 220 minus 43 gives 177 which is WAY off.
I find sustaining 145 - 150 for long rows feels comfortable.
When I am busting a PB, I aim for 160 - 165.
Last 10 -15 mins I push it to 170 - 175.
Right at the end, if I have the strength, I get it into the 180s.
Bigger guys may be different - after all elephants have slower HRs than mice
Paul
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Re: CTC Challenge PB
I know exactly how you feel Rob.Derrylad wrote:Another Day another PB ( Bloody Chuffed - ( he goes into a coma ) )
Just got a new PB for the half marathon, 1hr 27min 25.9sec, knocking 10 minutes off my previous PB!
I started out with a constant pace boat of 2:07/500m which I was comfortably managing to match with 10,000m to go. So I then tried to get the average split times under 2:05/500m which I was delighted to achieve.
The 4300m splits were:
2:05.7
2:06.1
2:03.8
2:04.2
2:01.3
Average 2:04.3/500m with 25 SPM overall.
Thomas, will you be attempting to beat this one tonight? (More motivation!)
6'6" 1971
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Incredible row Rob, fastest non-MAD1 rower, very very impressive . Sustaining 1:45.1 pace for 30 mins, insane
Against that I think the heart muscle has and easier time the bigger the heart gets as the volume goes up faster then the surface area.
Heartwise I'm 26yrs, and my heart goes from 52 to 190/192, I do 10K's in the 170's (having said that I haven't checked that for over 6 months, so hopefully that has improved)
I think I read over a year ago that human hearts pipes do not scale up 100% as you get bigger. They go up 3/4 or so of what they should do.PSims wrote:Bigger guys may be different - after all elephants have slower HRs than mice
Against that I think the heart muscle has and easier time the bigger the heart gets as the volume goes up faster then the surface area.
Heartwise I'm 26yrs, and my heart goes from 52 to 190/192, I do 10K's in the 170's (having said that I haven't checked that for over 6 months, so hopefully that has improved)
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Re: CTC Challenge PB
Rob Congrats on a really brilliant 30 min. I'd sell my granny to hold your split time for just 2000m (sorry gran).Derrylad wrote:Another Day another PB ( Bloody Chuffed - ( he goes into a coma ) )
Janet / Bangers: Heart rate zones: I have always wondered about what my maximum would be ( so I could possibly push myself that little bit extra ) - Any ideas - as I do not always believe what I see on the net. My resting pulse is 43, Age is 39 / 40 and I can sustain a HR of about 150-160 for about an hour. Just curious as to what my max would be.
Cheers
Rob
Go to http://www.concept2.co.uk/training/interactive.php Apart from this being a very useful interactive 2k training guide, on page 4 all is revealed regarding establishing your MHR.
The management take no resposibility for any.........etc. etc
Roger B
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Gregors HM PB
Gregor: Just got a new PB for the half marathon, 1hr 27min 25.9sec, knocking 10 minutes off my previous PB!
That is F*((dg amazing ( sorry guys - but 10 minutes is a 2 - 3k difference ). Tha is the biggest PB difference I have ever seen. CONGRATULATIONS My hat goes off to you.
It's amazing what you can achieve by just pushing that little extra. I reckon your could take some time off you 10k as well ( re-row your last 10kPB and just stay ahead of the paceboar ) obviously once you have recoverd.
Again. WELL DONE
Rob
That is F*((dg amazing ( sorry guys - but 10 minutes is a 2 - 3k difference ). Tha is the biggest PB difference I have ever seen. CONGRATULATIONS My hat goes off to you.
It's amazing what you can achieve by just pushing that little extra. I reckon your could take some time off you 10k as well ( re-row your last 10kPB and just stay ahead of the paceboar ) obviously once you have recoverd.
Again. WELL DONE
Rob