Anyone had any PBs recently?

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Iain
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Iain »

=D> ^O^ =D> Claudius, truly inspiring rowing.

I have just looked at your HR data for your 2 recent FM PBs. I appreciate the first was a first attempt rather than all out. I am amazed your HR stays so low at these paces. I suspect that my stroke volume increases later than most as my %max HR is very high. For my FM Saturday (details on PP thread) I averaged over 87% HRmax (over 90% if you just take the HR at the end of each interval). HR first spiked above 90% less than 6km in. I know I am not fully fit having only been exercising 2.3 days per week (average) since the start of the year, but I think an all out FM would not be that different even at peak fitness. Have you found that your HR profiles change after periods of reduced activity to show higher HR at lower RPE?

Also I experienced a decoupling of HR to pace for the final 40% (mentioned after your first PB post). Looking back I think I should have seen this as a warning and slowed a little. I actually increased my pace a little at that time before everything got much harder somewhere between 75-80% of distance. This was not "bonking" as I have experienced this before. I think it was just my central limiter cutting in as my heart muscle tired. Hopefully, with better training, I will make the full FM distance next time before this happens. Do you think I am on the right lines or have you any alternative theories?

- Iain
52 year old Lwt (in ability and weight) trying to develop a technique that doesn't cause hysterics and start rowing regularly now I am working again.
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Wolfmiester »

Outstanding Claudius 8) =D>
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Claudius »

Thank You Paul, Iain and Wolfie !

very interesting HR Data Iain

HR Drift or Decoupeling - a very interesting phenomenon during (prolonged) exercise.

i have been monitoring HR for years...it's interesting how it is changing - or not changing its behaviour during exercise. HR is influenced by variable factors. So you can't use it as a gold-standard comparison tool. Because it lags behind and is not as precise to control compared to training with power- or for us indoor rowers with pace-(in this case it does not really matter... if you know how to translate them to each other). Nevertheless HR is a direct response from your body, it reacts in many situations similar but not necessarily the same. Knowing some of these points, you also can work very good with HR. Lets talk about LT1. Its so important to develop a feeling when this point occurs. And HR can be one metric, as a triangulation point with some other more, to roughly estimate the appearance of LT1 in your body during a workout. If your pace is just far over LT1 more heading to LT2 HR increases more quickly and the drift appears sooner than if you start rowing below LT1 - exactly that was my approach on my first ever FM. LT1 pace December ~2:04-2:11, now ~2:00-2:07, my little knowledge and experience let me think that this LT1 is a bigger range than the LT2 range. When it comes to HR there are various recommendations to estimate LT1. One simple is just 75% of HRM. Other sources prefer 70% and that is also my belief- to stay safe I subtract 2-4%. To be in aerobics bullseye. To develop a feeling for LT1 i play around those percentages. Slightly ramp it up over “into the green” to a pace of 1:59-1:58. Feeling how your breath is changing during that ramp up. During that sing a song...choose a common phrase, maybe a refrain of a song which is crossing your mind:

“Yeah
Look it's me
The one who can't be free
Much too young to focus
But too old to see
Hey
Look it's me
When no one wants to see
See what you brought this world
Just what you wanna see

Hey ma
Hey ma, look it's me”

Princess charming often crosses my mind while rowing on zwift...the one who can't be free !

Holding 90% of MHR over 3h is a very brave effort ! I hope you recovered well !

https://www.fasttalklabs.com/fast-talk/ ... r-ed-coyle

very good podcast about HR decoupling, with Ed Coyle !

or this one, about the size principle:

https://soundcloud.com/empiricalcycling ... -principle
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Claudius
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Claudius »

Iain wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:50 am Also I experienced a decoupling of HR to pace for the final 40% (mentioned after your first PB post). Looking back I think I should have seen this as a warning and slowed a little.
The podcast with Ed Coyle dives deep into HR Decoupling...it is a physiological process...caused by many factors...in a FM there is a danger to forget to hydrate appropriate...that's one cause of HR Drift...also the change of muscle fibre use-> larger motor units> size principle. And of course the fan...indoor rowing has a small advantage compared to cycling as we are still moving and having a windmachine in front of us...but an additional fan can also help to prevent overheating. So if you take care about those 2 big stones...there is no need to back off- the heart is one very important part of the whole system- but not the only one- it shouldnt be the limiting factor- but if you really think its the heart as a pathological symptom- better stop rowing. There shouldnt be any symptoms like stenocardia or dyspnoe. Then consult a cardiologist for further testing, 12-lead ECG, Echo, Stress-Test- BTW - the stroke volume decreases during prolonged exercise---the more you are dehydrated- but on the contrary on endurance competitions there are more cases of exercise induced hyponatriaemia due too much fluid intake

you are on the right track i think !
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Iain »

Many thanks for your response Claudius. I will follow the links later (supposed to be working!) No stenocardia or dyspnoea. Re stroke volume increasing, by "later" I meant at higher heart rates (ie my heart seems to increase its rate rapidly with low grade exercise, I postulate that it increases the stroke volume to a greater extent above 90% HRmax than most (presumably because it increased it less up to that point). I suggest this because I am capable of maintaining higher heart rates for longer than others of similar fitness level and can increase my pace aerobically from a high sustained heart rate more than others seem to (ie have greater aerobic capacity above this level).

I agree that increased stroke volume after rowing >2hrs seems highly unlikely, therefore if HR does not increase when I accelerate I must be achieving the increase anaerobically and essentially my threshold has dropped for the remainder of the session.

Re HR drift, this was not great during the row as I drank substantially every 5km, HR typically dropped back 3-5BPM from before the stop to when it plateaued after the drink. Interestingly I was less than 1kg lighter at the end than the start, so if anything drank a little much.

I must admit to confusion on how HR should respond to the exercise zones. Although there is some evidence of LT2 in my traces, I have never managed to halt the increase at that point. Even a modest increase above LT1 (say 5S/500m) seems to lead to an inevitable progression to an HR too high to be LT2! Do others find the same or am I abnormal? That said, on my HM PB in January I did plateau at 90% HR for nearly an hour, but have lost that ability now I have lost some fitness.
52 year old Lwt (in ability and weight) trying to develop a technique that doesn't cause hysterics and start rowing regularly now I am working again.
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by paulgould »

Iain wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:45 pm Many thanks for your response Claudius. I will follow the links later (supposed to be working!) No stenocardia or dyspnoea. Re stroke volume increasing, by "later" I meant at higher heart rates (ie my heart seems to increase its rate rapidly with low grade exercise, I postulate that it increases the stroke volume to a greater extent above 90% HRmax than most (presumably because it increased it less up to that point). I suggest this because I am capable of maintaining higher heart rates for longer than others of similar fitness level and can increase my pace aerobically from a high sustained heart rate more than others seem to (ie have greater aerobic capacity above this level).

I agree that increased stroke volume after rowing >2hrs seems highly unlikely, therefore if HR does not increase when I accelerate I must be achieving the increase anaerobically and essentially my threshold has dropped for the remainder of the session.

Re HR drift, this was not great during the row as I drank substantially every 5km, HR typically dropped back 3-5BPM from before the stop to when it plateaued after the drink. Interestingly I was less than 1kg lighter at the end than the start, so if anything drank a little much.

I must admit to confusion on how HR should respond to the exercise zones. Although there is some evidence of LT2 in my traces, I have never managed to halt the increase at that point. Even a modest increase above LT1 (say 5S/500m) seems to lead to an inevitable progression to an HR too high to be LT2! Do others find the same or am I abnormal? That said, on my HM PB in January I did plateau at 90% HR for nearly an hour, but have lost that ability now I have lost some fitness.
Hi Iain

Once again my brain hurts when I try to understand the above, so I am going to go with the safe option and say you are abnormal :fsbgrin: :fsbgrin:

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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Iain »

Paul, the first podcast has a section on the effects of beta blockers, while the second explains why heavy lifting improves performance in 10k events. Thanks again Claudius. I hadn't heard the term "Decoupling" for cardiac drift. I didn't mean it that way, so apologies for incorrectly using the term. My phenomenon was the opposite, HR constant when pace increased rather than HR increasing while pace stayed constant. I guess the significance of the "size principle" was the impact of neural drive fatigue while slow twitch fibres fatigued. Interesting discussions anyway. Had better leave it there as I am off topic!
52 year old Lwt (in ability and weight) trying to develop a technique that doesn't cause hysterics and start rowing regularly now I am working again.
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by paulgould »

Iain wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 6:25 pm Paul, the first podcast has a section on the effects of beta blockers, while the second explains why heavy lifting improves performance in 10k events. Thanks again Claudius. I hadn't heard the term "Decoupling" for cardiac drift. I didn't mean it that way, so apologies for incorrectly using the term. My phenomenon was the opposite, HR constant when pace increased rather than HR increasing while pace stayed constant. I guess the significance of the "size principle" was the impact of neural drive fatigue while slow twitch fibres fatigued. Interesting discussions anyway. Had better leave it there as I am off topic!
Thanks Iain - I joined Fast Talk Laboratories and had a listen to the first half of the podcast - very interesting, it was.

Paul G
55, 1.74m , Sep '20 - 114 kg , currently - 88 kg
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Claudius »

It was just some weeks ago...i asked myself- will you ever do those 100k ? The answer was no. But on Saturday there was a unique opportunity. If i have a free Saturday i normally do something with the family or go out for a ride with the bike. For some reasons it was meant to be bound in front of a PC. So why not give the 100k a try ??? = justifiable indication !!!

And finally i created this signature with the pb image creator...added my best result in w/kg for the 6min test...as this happened a verrrrryyyy loooooong time ago.
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by plummy »

Very nice "gap filler" on the signature strip. 100k!! They don't come along very often so huge congrats on tucking one way.
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by JonT »

I like your approach to split time Claudius :lol: :lol:

Many, many congratulations. Crazy man!

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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Iain »

Well done Claudius. I rate my 100k as probably the most unpleasant row I have ever done despite the help of lot of supporters and a 3 month build up. To just do one out of the blue is incredible!
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Re: Anyone had any PBs recently?

Post by Claudius »

Thank you David, Jon and Iain,

i guess i will not do that again for a very long time...will i ever do it again ?
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