Stroke rates, HR-max and the damper

[Mike Channin]

Just had a look at the image Thomas took from his PM2. Shows 22 SPM and end HR of 185.

22 SPM impressed me. Just done a capped HR piece (half marathon with a close eye on pace required to beat Thomas - evil eh?) Was supposed to be under 70% working HR, but couldn't hold that and slipped to 75%. (Was even outside that in last 2k, struggling to hold onto the stroke power, and hitting 165 max). During that, I was pulling 23.55 SPM, and finished in 1:26:22.9 (close, eh?). I wouldn't have fancied trying to pull that at 22 SPM instead - was bad enough as it was by the end.

I reckon if you let the stroke rate come up a bit Thomas, you'd probably find another 30 seconds. Mind you, if that 185 is your HR max, maybe not a lot of room to improve without getting fitter...

[Thomas W-P]

22 is my pace. The ONE time I stroked a boat, they said I'd be great for a marathon, but I could not get the rate above 24!

And sadly 185 is about right for my HR-Max - sometimes it blips up to 190 but only for a micro second. When I got going with Free Spirits I could only reach 180, so it is going the right way...

[Mike Channin]

Dare I ask what damper/drag you have it set on?

Us short people have to pull more strokes to go the same distance.

But that said, if I can get up to 53 SPM full slide, surely you can go a bit higher than 24????

And as for HR Max - it's whatever the max HR you've ever seen is. Simple as that. And it doesn't change with exercise (although your ability to reach it before something else gives out may). If anything, it'll drop 3-4 beats once you get trained up as your blood thickens up slightly. Your HR max will also decline gracefully with age, which is what the simple formulae try to show, but it declines less quickly if you exercise a lot. And the formulae are only accurate for about 75% of people, so a real result (if you can face the pain of getting up to HR Max) is much more valuable than a predicted result.

My max HR this season was 193 after coming back from a 4 week cold. Hit 188 yesterday, but reckon I could have got it higher. Max seen in last 3 years was 196 on the rower. Can get higher running. Formulae predict either 185 (220 - age) or 187.5 (205 - age/2) so not that close for me.

Anyway, enough about HRs - that should be in another thread.

[Thomas W-P]

Dare I ask what damper/drag you have it set on?

DF is 140 at damper 5 but I think I put it on 6 for the HM? Can't remember. I rate much higher on the shorter ones, maybe even up to 28 on the 2,000m and 48 on the 100m, but for those stupid short ones I tend to row half-slide since it is a waste of time coming forward, and I have short legs and a long back.

[Thomas W-P]

I had a play this morning. I often do HR130, SR22 pieces to guage my fitness. I did a 10,000m at HR130 and SR26 just now with the damper on 5 for the first half and 4 for the second half.

I was over a minute slower than a 130/22 piece.

Lots of reasons for this I imagine. Not least that I found it hard to keep the HR and SR on target.

[Fatt Matt]

Can get higher running.

According to the C2 training guide (http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.p ... _intensity) your max heart rate is higher when running because of the need to pump more against gravity; similarly it is lower when swimming.

I hit 196bpm when I picked up rowing again at the start of this year (and was on a post-beer, post-fags fitness low) but now if I get to 190 it's unusual and I'm occasionally sick afterwards. Anecdotal evidence from mates seems to support the idea that when you are cv unfit, your max HR is a bit higher than after a period of good cv training.

On the damper, I crank it up a notch or two for the shorter 'power' pieces, seem to be able to get the split down at the expense of getting really broken really quickly.

[webberg]

Intrigued by Mike's comment that as he is quite short (5'11") he has to row faster in order to get the sort of splits he is looking at.

I am shorter by 3" and rarely row over 28SPM. My usual rate is around 24 and on long pieces at 22.

Presumably this means that the power per stroke is higher. (Is this what SPI is, i.e. Stroke Power Index?)

In order to generate this either a stronger leg drive is required or your back/arms have to take more of the load. Using the legs is obviously more efficient but even so the arms do suffer.

It would be interesting to compare the shape of the wattage graph. For me there is always sharp rise, plateau, dip and rise again before falling away. Try as I might I can't keep the "dip" out of the plateau. Would a quicker stroke pattern do this?

[Mike Channin]

Fatt Matt - cheers for the explanation re: higher pulse when running - always nice to know the reason why...

webberg - I'm talking faster, relative to those big chaps we have around here. As work = force x distance, if the distance is less owing to being shorter, you either increase the force (which you can do to a point, but there is a limit to how much force you can produce), or increase the stroke rate (which again, you can do to a point before it becomes counter productive).

re: SPI - the lower the stroke rate is, the higher the SPI for the same split. (SPI is power in Watts divided by stroke rate). There is a trade off with SPI and total time for a piece though. If you row too hard (high SPI) you will fatigue the muscles first and suffer lactate build up which will compromise the time. If you row too fast, you waste energy on the slide and also stress the cardio side more. Somewhere in the middle is an optimum sweet spot dependant on your cardio fitness, strength, lactate tolerance, stroke technique and physical attributes. I also find that as I fatigue during a long piece, I have to raise the stroke rate to hold the split down.

re: Force curves. The experts on the main forum will tell you there should not be a dip in your curve. It should be once continuous curve with no inflections. The dip is caused by the power production not being smooth through the stroke. In this case it sounds possible that you're stamping the catch with the legs, and then there's a delay before the back and arms catch up towards the finish. (If you go on the main UK forum and ask PaulS, he'll probably be able to tell you exactly what it means, but beware, your thread will be hijacked by the 'ranger'...) The good news is that you can probably get more overall power once you figure out what is going on. The bad news is that this kind of curve probably means there's excess pressure on the lower back, and a raised possibility of injury.

[Fatt Matt]

Interesting point re. the relationship between stroke rate & cardio stress; FWIW, I do pretty much all of my training based on HR and the training bands and find that over a longer piece as heart rate starts to go up I can keep it down by dropping my SPM a couple of pips without compromising pace. However, drop it too low and the HR starts going up big style to maintain a given pace. I guess I might investigate this further given your comments, to see what the range of the "sweet spot" is - cheers for the ideas.

Brief thing on height - I am 5'11'' but have the same length legs as my missus who is 5'7'' - so I have relatively short legs which has more impact, I think, on rowing than overall height. And she keeps nicking my trousers.

[Mike Channin]

Matt, I also tend to do most of my training based on HR bands, although the high end stuff is just aiming to work hard. The low HR stuff I tend to start off with a strong good form stroke and hence low SPM, and then the SPM creeps up as the stroke weakens owing to fatigue. HR creeps up too. Never thought of trying setting off faster and then dropping SPM. I have done some stuff where I concentrated dropping the SPM towards the end, and do tend to find it drops the HR a bit, but obviously I need to not be too tired by then.

Another rather obvious reason for finding certain stroke rates comfortable is the frequency of needing to breathe. I find it a real pain when my breathing frequency isn't really synched with the stroke and I keep having to swap which end of the stroke I'm breathing. More of a factor for higher intensity stuff where again, I tend to need to breathe more rapidly towards the end and let the stroke rate come up to match. The scary one is the flat out stuff towards the end of a max intensity where I sometimes end up breathing both ends of the stroke...

Oh, and Matt, are you sure it's not that your missus has long legs? I had an ex who was 5'2" whose legs were almost as long as mine at 5'11". She was all legs (and tended to disappear when she sat down ) My inside leg is 33", which I think is right in the middle of 'average' proportions for my height, but I could be wrong.

And why on earth are you Fatt Matt at 11st 1??? What does that make me at 13st 3???

[Thomas W-P]

To give you an idea of how stupidly short my legs are...

I am 6' 3" and my inside leg is 32.5"

[Mike Channin]

Just get Tamsin to put you on the rack in the evenings. Soon have you stretched out, and that stroke working even better

[Fatt Matt]

Mike, I apologise to all and sundry re "Fatt" Matt , appreciating that it may appear a little, well, annoying for all those who are working hard to shift weight - it was a nickname at college when I rowed and weighed < 10st! The only one in the boat who pulled his weight, I reckoned. Also, 1 jan this year I hit 12st 12lb and, being of slim build I carried this in a children-entertaining bulge round the middle. So back to the Erg (busted knee so no running) and here we are!

My inside leg is 31", a bit shorter, so I have a tendency to over-extend at the catch to try to make up for it, especially since I don't much like the high-rating stuff which is an alternative compensation. Back to Webberg's graph, I used to extend much more and there was a definite dip as I levered back after driving with the legs. Much smoother now.

As to a 5'2'' lady with 33" legs - that's over half leg! Wow!

I agree re breathing though have recently found I slip quite early into 'breath each way' but just make it more shallow if I'm not caning it. I've found it quite relaxing, strangely, as I'm neither gasping or trying to suck in great lungfuls, and it doesn't really matter then how hard you push it, you just breath more deeply.

Last point (do we need a new thread? bit lost) - interesting to try some variation in approach re HR/SPM. Have you/anyone here followed the C2 interactive programme?

[Fatt Matt]

(sorry, it was an ironic nickname. Oh, what wags we were)

[webberg]

Only Fat Matt I ever saw was Matt Le Tissier.

best midfield player of his generation and played for England by the muppet Hoddle as a forward! Told he had a friendly to prove himself, scored one, made two and was still dropped.

Not that I'm bitter at all.

Interesting about the over extension causing the dip in the graph. To compensate for being short I've always held the handle at the furthest end of my fingers as I could. Not only does it not produce blisters it makes an inch or two difference. Perhaps I'll try to bring the handle more into the palm of the hand.

High SPM really mucks my breathing up. I like to breath in on recovery and deeply. I find too many quick and shallow breaths give me tunnel vision.

I intend a HM tomorrow (day off) so lots of opportunity to try the tips. Thanks guys.