April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

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April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Grobi »

Hi everyone,

Team Te Waka Aotearoa have announced the challenge for April:

"Name: Control yourself
Row 10 minutes at r20
Rest 5 minutes
Row 10 minutes at r20
Restricted to r20, deduct 100m off your distance for every stroke per minute over
Your recorded score will be, the least distance rowed (slowest) of your two 10 minutes pieces (after any deductions if applicable)"

The tall ones will like this one...
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by fkoene »

Not used to the rhythm, so I gave it a shot today. Thought I kept the pace pretty well but the Rowpro summary says my strokes per rep were too high though the overall average was right on spot. Strange, but is doesn't count yet anyway.
Nevertheless, good luck with this one
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by JonT »

ErgZone is going to help a lot on this one. You get real-time info about your average pace over an interval rather than having to watch the pace like a hawk and hope you have it right by the end of the interval.


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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by paulgould »

JonT wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:54 pm ErgZone is going to help a lot on this one. You get real-time info about your average pace over an interval rather than having to watch the pace like a hawk and hope you have it right by the end of the interval.


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Do you not mean rate rather than pace?
For those who don’t have Ergzone why not simply count the strokes - I find it takes your mind off the pain
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by JonT »

paulgould wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:56 pm
JonT wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:54 pm ErgZone is going to help a lot on this one. You get real-time info about your average pace over an interval rather than having to watch the pace like a hawk and hope you have it right by the end of the interval.


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Do you not mean rate rather than pace?
For those who don’t have Ergzone why not simply count the strokes - I find it takes your mind off the pain
Yes Paul, my mistake.

I wouldn’t trust myself to count the strokes. So many times I have had conversations with myself such as “Ok. Just 30 more strokes” and literally 5 strokes later “erm, is that 23 to go??? Maybe 24? Who knows!”. I’m useless at it.

ErgZone is free on iPhone and Android, but I realise it won’t work with all PMs.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by paulgould »

JonT wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:43 pm
I wouldn’t trust myself to count the strokes. So many times I have had conversations with myself such as “Ok. Just 30 more strokes” and literally 5 strokes later “erm, is that 23 to go??? Maybe 24? Who knows!”. I’m useless at it.

ErgZone is free on iPhone and Android, but I realise it won’t work with all PMs.
Yes - Ergzone apparently only works with a PM5.
I find that counting strokes helps me get into a steady rhythm but you do have to concentrate in order not to lose count.

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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by jolo »

Had an early go at this today.

1. 10 min 2487m 2:00.6 / 20
2. 10 min 2490m 2:00.4 / 20

Went conservative on the first rep not really knowing what to expect. Second rep felt pretty easy. Might give this another go later in the month. Good luck to everyone having a go, maybe someone can use this as a target.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by duffyoz »

Had a crack on the 1st and got it wrong - did 2 x 20 min r20 then had another go on the 2nd 2 x 10' r20. I am fairly happy with where that is at compared to Jan 2020 and considering 14 weeks post surgery on the 2/4/21. Planning to try again towards end of month and hope for some improvement. Rated lower than 20 so I presume that counts. Didn't want to see any 21 so I was a bit conservative in that space.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Iain »

I find that the best way to do R20 is to watch the clock and time the catches spot on the multiples of 3. Any thoughts on how hard to go on this as 200 strokes is too many to do full on, but presumably it is significantly faster than 30R20 where the first 5' seems pretty easy if paced flat. The other question is drag. I feel that raising it shuld be an advantage, but too high will men the legs dying with no prospect of recovering by rating up. I'm thinking similar DF to a 500? Any thoughts from those that have had a go?
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by fkoene »

Sorry Iain, can't help you with the dragfactor. Always row at 10, no change for this one.
Installed ErgZone on my phone, haven't used it yet though, tried both RowPro and ErgZone together at the same time, that sort of messed up my PM5.
Rowed with RowPro now, to my opinion hardly touched the 20, but in the first rep my average stroke rate was 20, expected it to be less then that.

The result: 2521 in the first rep. The only goal in the second one was of course to row more then that. Was able to relatively relax a bit in the end of the second, so perhaps I can do better later this month.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Tritorow »

I am really bad at low SPM, so I will have to try this one multiple times adjusting my drag factor. I found the easiest way to pace myself properly to get 20SPM was to follow along with one of the dark horse videos on you tube where he rows silently at 20SPM for 20 minutes. I just stopped the video during my 5 min rest period. Just a tip for anyone else who is a beginner rower or has trouble with pacing.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Mat »

Well done to all that have tried it already =D> =D>
I've always hated the low stroke rate stuff, especially when I was erging regularly and my usual stroke rate was close to 30. It felt extremely artificial to slow down, no matter how many people told me that it was good for me!

Fortunately I now rate naturally at 24-26 spm so this challenge was just about slowing down a bit, but still allowed me to keep a more natural rhythm rather than the hesitant start/stop type stroke that usually plagued my low SR stuff

So after a decent 6k C2C earlier in the week, I challenged myself to hit sub 40' for a Running 10k a couple of days later and managed it for the first time in a couple of years :D On the back of that I figured I'd strike while the iron was hot and take a shot at this one.

Not sure what to expect and left the drag as it always is (135), and off I went rowing at what felt right, with a push towards the end of the first 10'. Then tried to match it in the second.

Happy with the result- 2685m/1:51.7 then 2683m/.1:51.8 and not sure how much better I can do?
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Liefcat »

Well done, all!

And big Congrats with the sub 40' 10k run, Mat! Are you still doing Triathlon?

I did my first attempt a little over 2' minutes pace. Expecting sub 2' pace later this month...
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Liefcat »

Iain wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:13 pm I find that the best way to do R20 is to watch the clock and time the catches spot on the multiples of 3. Any thoughts on how hard to go on this as 200 strokes is too many to do full on, but presumably it is significantly faster than 30R20 where the first 5' seems pretty easy if paced flat. The other question is drag. I feel that raising it shuld be an advantage, but too high will men the legs dying with no prospect of recovering by rating up. I'm thinking similar DF to a 500? Any thoughts from those that have had a go?
Oh, from the times when I did more R20 was to do it at a DF a little lower than normal, say 120 vs 130. This approach demands that you have the technique and speed. I don't have this now, so I used my normal 130.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by paulgould »

After a nice early morning session(15km) I thought I would have a tentative first stab at this one.

Very conscious of keeping my HR low, it was a medium effort.

Iain, I don't know how much help my DF figures are to you - I used the same DF as Mat and Erik(added together :lol: :lol: ) - 272.

The first leg I did exactly 200 strokes and managed 2386m.
The second leg felt a lot easier - I did 2393m and rowed 199 strokes.

Will definitely have a few more goes at this - I have an ECG(Echo) next Friday which should help determine better what my current fitness level is and how much harder I can safely push myself, so I am really looking forward to this.

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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Mat »

Liefcat wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:13 pm And big Congrats with the sub 40' 10k run, Mat! Are you still doing Triathlon?
Thanks Erik :fsbgrin: I haven't done any triathlons for a few years - I found that I just didn't have time to put in enough hours on a bike (and at my weight I needed to get much better on the bike so as to avoid losing too much time in that section!)

After a few years struggling while I got the thyroid medication right, I've ended up mainly running - in the mountains whenever possible and progressed through marathons to ultras with the possibility of a 100 miler this July :shock:

All the best for your next shot at this C2C later in the month :twisted:
paulgould wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:07 pm I used the same DF as Mat and Erik(added together :lol: :lol: ) - 272.
I'd expect nothing less Paul and I'm glad that some things don't change :lol:

I hope all goes well with the ECG on Friday :fsgrin:
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Iain »

Hope ECG goes well Paul. Thanks for the info. I thought the logic of using a lower DF for these was to make each stroke similar to higher ratings (as sped of the flywheel will be closer as it is slowing less fast for longer), I haven't heard that it is optimum for distance (although those with relatively weaker upper bodies could find it so). Some great distances. I intend to leave it a bit to try and get a bit more fitness back and hopefully have less back issues.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Liefcat »

Paul, I'm only shocked by the fact that you were using a DF less than 300... :lol: Anyways, good luck with the Echo! Exciting to see what your EF is! Judging by your performance your general state of health is rather good, so... Well done! =D>

Mat, yeah I guess your life with family and business isn't suited for Triathlon. I remember how tired you got when you weren't well regulated (and Jon explaining the meaning of the blood values), so glad you sorted that out! :D

Good luck with your Ultra! What is the longest distance you ran sofar?

Yes, Iain. Exactly as you predicted. The idea with a lower DF is that you kick really hard at the catch, and then sort of follow through with the rest of the stroke. But as you said it takes a lot of CV to do this! 8)

As for me my EF has stabilized around 45%. Of course everything feels weird, but I must admit I was happy to get under the 24 minutes in the March CTC. And it is going fine, and I feel I have more energy for my work and life in general! :D
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by paulgould »

Liefcat wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:11 am Paul, I'm only shocked by the fact that you were using a DF less than 300... :lol: Anyways, good luck with the Echo! Exciting to see what your EF is! Judging by your performance your general state of health is rather good, so... Well done! =D>

Mat, yeah I guess your life with family and business isn't suited for Triathlon. I remember how tired you got when you weren't well regulated (and Jon explaining the meaning of the blood values), so glad you sorted that out! :D

Good luck with your Ultra! What is the longest distance you ran sofar?

Yes, Iain. Exactly as you predicted. The idea with a lower DF is that you kick really hard at the catch, and then sort of follow through with the rest of the stroke. But as you said it takes a lot of CV to do this! 8)

As for me my EF has stabilized around 45%. Of course everything feels weird, but I must admit I was happy to get under the 24 minutes in the March CTC. And it is going fine, and I feel I have more energy for my work and life in general! :D
Thanks Erik - good to see you are keeping well.
I am really looking forward to getting my EF reading - the last echo I had was the day before the ICD was inserted and I didn't get all the details at the time but was told at a later stage that my EF then was somewhere in the 40's - I was also told that the probable MI which led to the cardiac arrest had damaged the same area of the LV that my previous MI had damaged, which was good news as that area of the heart wall was FUBAR already :lol: :lol: .

Mat - best of luck for your running ultra - many years ago I used to run ultras(never a 100 miler though), but I grew out of it :lol: :lol: - both literally and figuratively.

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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by JonT »

I was quite looking forward to this. I had a dry run yesterday with a single 10 minute interval after a weights session. I managed 2479 on some quite tired legs and shoulders, so I was hopeful I might be able to scrape through 2500 if I was fresh. I left DF at 125 which is where it has been for a long time now, and where I have been rowing a lot of r20- UT2 sessions. Unfortunately, the 2500 was not to be, or at least not in both intervals. Infuriatingly I made it in the second but not the first. #-o There is a natural tendency to go slightly easy in the first interval I guess, just to make sure you don't blow up. 199 strokes in the first interval and 200 in the second (I rememberer there is a stroke count field in ErgData, so I used that to keep myself on track).

I found this harder than I expected both in terms of tiredness in the legs and CV to some extent.

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M HR
20:00.0 4,999m 2:00.0 202 996 20 182
10:00.0 2,494m 2:00.2 201 992 20 181
r: 5:00 718m
10:00.0 2,506m 1:59.7 204 1002 20 184
Good luck all.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by fkoene »

Very close to 2500, Jon. No doubt you're motivated to give it another shot later.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by JonT »

fkoene wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:56 pm Very close to 2500, Jon. No doubt you're motivated to give it another shot later.
Nope. :lol:
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Liefcat »

Well done, Jon :wink: =D>

Yeah, I did it :!: 2512m and 2514m... 200 and 201 strokes... DF 130... :D
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by spidermac »

Nice work JonT & Liefcat, will have a bash later this month.
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Re: April ctc - 10‘r20 - 5‘r - 10‘r20, the slower one to count

Post by Crushy »

My first ever rate limited row. I've only ever limited myself by HR before.
Planned to take it steady just to see what it's like but quite early started pushing a bit.

10:00.0 2,483m 2:00.8 198 982 20 162
r: 5:00 17m
10:00.0 2,483m 2:00.8 198 982 20 168

Happy with that considering I was just meant to be trying it out.
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